Author Topic: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???  (Read 657 times)

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Offline Bafflingbs

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Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« on: November 15, 2020, 08:18:32 AM »
I may not be understanding exactly what was being shown to me, but, my inde sent a video of him measuring crank runout at the end of the pinion shaft, at .002. The file is to large to attach here, but, itís of the crank being rotated, and the gauge touching the very end of the pinion (left side, I believe). When I bought this very expensive piece of equipment, I was under the impression that it would be under .001? In fact, the tag accompanying it, from Darkhorse, shows .0008- .0005 Am I missing something?

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 09:08:43 AM by FSG »
2015 FLHXS: 117hp/130tq FM 110", Darkhorse Man-O-War crank
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Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2020, 08:30:48 AM »
A picture of the measurement, from the video:
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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2020, 08:46:40 AM »
Maybe try a different gauge, one of higher quality and reads in tenths.
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Offline kd

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2020, 08:53:11 AM »
Darkhorse measurements will be taken in quality V blocks and the unit will be very gently rotated.  Your measurement is taken installed in the crank main bearings and that usually requires a tool (like a socket and bar) to rotate the assembly.  Because they have clearance for oil etc. that can allow movement or deflection from the method used to rotate it. If the pistons, rings and barrels are installed this deflection will be even more exaggerated.  How is it being turned?  You don't say what year the wheels are or whether or not it has timkin drive side bearings. If so, they need to be fully assembled to the proper clearance to stabilize the unit. With the gauge still installed you will be able to simply push or lift on that pinion shaft and see this movement in the bearings on the dial gauge.

This is posted in the right place for John to see it.  He will likely respond with a more folsum explanation that you can understand.  He will likely need to know the things I mentioned, how far the unit is assembled and the method used to rotate and measure the pinion shaft deflection. I suggest you try to find out and add it to this thread.
KD

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2020, 08:56:41 AM »
Crappy or not, it still shows more than .001 Not trying to bash anyone, Iím just trying to understand why it shows so much runout. I specifically bought the Man-o-War crank, because itís supposed to be the very best. Not saying itís not, understand, I just donít know enough about this, and want to understand. My OCD is really in hyperdrive on this
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Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2020, 09:03:04 AM »
Darkhorse measurements will be taken in quality V blocks and the unit will be very gently rotated.  Your measurement is taken installed in the crank main bearings and that usually requires a tool (like a socket and bar) to rotate the assembly.  Because they have clearance for oil etc. that can allow movement or deflection from the method used to rotate it. If the pistons, rings and barrels are installed this deflection will be even more exaggerated.  How is it being turned?  You don't say what year the wheels are or whether or not it has timkin drive side bearings. If so, they need to be fully assembled to the proper clearance to stabilize the unit. With the gauge still installed you will be able to simply push or lift on that pinion shaft and see this movement in the bearings on the dial gauge.

This is posted in the right place for John to see it.  He will likely respond with a more folsum explanation that you can understand.  He will likely need to know the things I mentioned, how far the unit is assembled and the method used to rotate and measure the pinion shaft deflection. I suggest you try to find out and add it to this thread.

Thank you very much for your detailed information. Iím not sure how it was rotated, as I wasnít there to observe. I do know that the Timken conversion was performed. As was the blueprinted cam plate. (Zipperís)
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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2020, 09:05:03 AM »
My point is this. That gauge may have very high repeatability, but the tolerance is probably +/- 0.001". So if that's the case, and the real measure is near 0.001" and not 0.002". Then a gauge reading in tenths may very well measure out at the 0.0008" they show.

I've used several DH cranks, all measured at or within a few tenths in the motor cases that the accompanying tag states. Before determining that there is an issue, measure with another gauge, one with higher tolerance and finer readout.

The quality of the tool will give the quality or lack of quality in the measurement. 
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2020, 09:11:19 AM »
Measuring shaft TIR is easy if you have access to a "Dial Test Indicator" (NOT a Dial Travel Indicator) with a resolution of at least 0.0005 in. (0.0001 in. is preferred).

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2020, 09:27:37 AM »
My point is this. That gauge may have very high repeatability, but the tolerance is probably +/- 0.001". So if that's the case, and the real measure is near 0.001" and not 0.002". Then a gauge reading in tenths may very well measure out at the 0.0008" they show.

I've used several DH cranks, all measured at or within a few tenths in the motor cases that the accompanying tag states. Before determining that there is an issue, measure with another gauge, one with higher tolerance and finer readout.

The quality of the tool will give the quality or lack of quality in the measurement.

I got ya, most likely youíre right, and at the very least, itís still better than I had. Thank you
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Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2020, 09:29:34 AM »
IME, it's not uncommon for cranks to have less TIR when measured in v blocks, than when measured in the cases.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Offline kd

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2020, 09:32:56 AM »
The fact that it has timkins also supports the need to be properly assembled for clearance before this test.
KD

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2020, 09:37:51 AM »
IME, it's not uncommon for cranks to have less TIR when measured in v blocks, than when measured in the cases.

LOL! I donít even know what ďIMEĒ or ďTIRĒ stands for :idunno:
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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2020, 09:40:11 AM »
IME, it's not uncommon for cranks to have less TIR when measured in v blocks, than when measured in the cases.

LOL! I donít even know what ďIMEĒ or ďTIRĒ stands for :idunno:

What's LOL mean?    :smile:

IME - in my experience
TIR - total indicated reading.
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Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2020, 09:51:35 AM »
IME, it's not uncommon for cranks to have less TIR when measured in v blocks, than when measured in the cases.

LOL! I donít even know what ďIMEĒ or ďTIRĒ stands for :idunno:

What's LOL mean?    :smile:

IME - in my experience
TIR - total indicated reading.

 :hyst: Thanks!
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Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2020, 09:59:40 AM »
The fact that it has timkins also supports the need to be properly assembled for clearance before this test.

Therein lieís the question
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 10:04:36 AM by Bafflingbs »
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2020, 10:00:38 AM »
Run it for 5000 miles and measure again, same gauge. No change, no worries.
Riding is life.
Everything else is waiting.

Offline Buglet

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2020, 10:35:49 AM »
   These measurements don't surprise me as ever body has there own way of measuring and reasons why one person measuring is different then another. 

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2020, 01:36:40 PM »
I think Iím just going to take Darkhorse at their word, and trust their measurements are more correct than Made in China gauge.
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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2020, 01:44:46 PM »
You can always call John Dahmer at DH. He'll set your mind at ease. He takes all inquiries seriously.

This is an article he did with Hot Bike a few years back.

https://www.hotbikeweb.com/motor-tech-bottom-end-theory
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Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2020, 02:20:21 PM »
Thank you
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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2020, 08:54:39 AM »
As someone said, post it here and John will see it and reply - funny how that happens (just not always in a timely fashion as a lot is happening right now).  My first response or question actually is how is the indicator being supported, I can not see in the picture supplied?  It does seem to leave some question in stability of indicator?  We use the Feuling plate so there is NO ability to destabilize the indicator while measuring.  I would be more than happy to discuss with you if you wish?

Thanks guys, John

Offline kd

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2020, 10:05:28 AM »
 :up: That was my thought too.  There appears to be a pair of vice grips in the pic and that style of "adjustable" mount (segmented snake arm) or simply using them for clamping the base absolutely does permit deflection in the mount.  The gauge also does not appear to be perpendicular to the surface being measured and if that is so the measurement taken will consequently be longer.  For interest sake, it would be nice to see a shot that includes the full view of the set-up.
KD

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2020, 03:56:34 PM »
I spoke to my builder, and confirmed what some have said. He even thinks it may be his gauge. Iím going to chalk it up to A.) my lack of experience B.) his gauge and C.) the method of how he measured. The bike is back together, and, is running smooth. I am very happy. I did have to have the sprocket pulled, however, both the original and the updated sprocket, were too noisy for both he and I. I really wanted it to work out for me, as I love the concept. But the neutral knock was very loud. It was tested both with and without, and ultimately not a good fit for me.
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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2020, 07:52:15 AM »
While we will always return our Man O War product if a customer is not happy with how their bike performs, I do have to say our motorsprocket is not the root cause of the neutral rattle as H-D calls it, but more of a issue within the H-D trans.  H-D has upgraded the countershaft 1st gear with one that resolves the neutral knock as I call it.  My 19' M8 is quiet as a church mouse in neutral, amazing quiet with our Man O-War motorsprocket which is very encouraging.  My 12' was not which really had me puzzled for quite a while

Offline Bafflingbs

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Re: Darkhorse MOW crank at .002???
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2020, 09:39:16 AM »
 :chop: In any case, my bike runs better, and feels better, than any other bike I've EVER ridden!!! It's definitely on par with an M8, for smoothness
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