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Bagger front end help

Started by Chief0299, November 18, 2020, 11:41:54 AM

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Chief0299

I dont post very often... mostly just reading and learning. But I'm at my wits end and could use some help.

I have a 2011 road glide ultra. Since purchasing the bike 3 years ago, I have changed neck bearings and races twice, installed a CCE top triple tree, installed the ricor valves in the forks, changed wheel bearings 3 times (whenever i get a new tire), installed stabilizing brackets...

I cannot get the front end to be/feel stable.

I have the service manual. When I torque everything according to the service manual, the front end fails the swing test. As in... everything is together, the star nut is tightened down, the top tree is torqued to spec... but after torquring the top tree nut, its too tight and the front end doesn't even make it to center when starting from full left lock. If I torque it down just enough to where it completes the swing test (full left to right and stop centered), its too loose and I get front end wobble, instability in curves and neck bearing popping on hard braking.

Other than purchasing a complete new front end, I dont know what else to do. I've been fighting this ever since I bought the bike. To eliminate rear end movement being the cause, I went so far as to install solid metal bushings where the rear poly ones went to lock in rear movement of the drive train. Vibrated like hell, but didn't change the front end issues.

Feel free to ask any questions. Im the second owner of the bike. Its never been in a wreck, but it has been ridden hard.

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have!

Coyote

If you are going by the manual, your neck bearing is too loose IMO.

Chief0299

70-80 ft lbs makes it insanely tight and the forks go from full left to stopping just before center. Not even half a swing.

kd

It looks like those instructions have a miss print for 11a.  I expect it should rear "Road King" Models.  I don't know if there is any difference if you use that reference in your adjustment but if so I think I would use 11c.
KD

Chief0299

I saw that. Its for reassembly of instrument cluster/shroud. Doesn't have anything to do with steps 6 through 10 which are torquing and swing check.

chaos901

Line 10 does state "adjust if necessary".  I've only had to work on those a couple of times and it always seemed to get down a little tighter or looser to make it right. 
"There are only two truly infinite things, the universe and stupidity." AE

Tacocaster

Three front tires in three years!? Ride much? Or could this just be yet another symptom of your problem?

Seriously, though....I see you replaced your top tree (CCE). Was this early on as in before you did the fork valving? I ask for two reasons:
1. I've experienced mis-matched trees (aftermarket) cause the "bearing pop on hard braking" and
2. I've experienced fork oil variance (significant) from fork to fork causing the "unstable feel".
Only #1 above would be impacting your star nut adjustment, of course.

And as for that "swing", could it be you may be pinching something as you draw-down on the star nut? Check the lower tree for this as well. Not definitive but it might trigger the answer you need from one of the guys on here.
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

hbkeith

i think your missing a spacer or something in your CCE tree install

PoorUB

I have never used the "fall away" method. Get the front tire off the ground, tighten the nut until you feel some resistance turning the forks left to right, back the nut off 1/3rd of a turn, tighten the lock nut and double check to make sure it is not too tight and button it up. The bearings tighten up a bit when the lock nut is tightened so you may need to readjust.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Chief0299

Taco - I've put 40k miles on the bike since sep 2017. I changed to the ricor valves two years ago. The cce trees were 6 months ago. Both forks got 11 ounces of 5wt oil (ricor reccomendation) when I rebuilt them with the fork tubes cce sent.

Hbkeith - the cce tree directly replaced the top tree. I dont remember the guys name, but I had to talk to the guy who developed it. The "ears" on the frame were making contact with the clamps on the tree. I ended up removing some paint on the corners so that the trees would go full lock to lock without sticking/catching. Torqued to factory spec... too tight and fallaway test failed. Broke torque loose and tightened to where it would complete the fallaway test, and same results as stated.

PoorUB - I've tried that same method thinking that torquing the top tree would compensate for the star nut be slightly loose. No-go. Same results. Too tight at factory spec, poor handling and popping when tightened enough for fallaway to pass.

Breeze

Is your clutch cable disconnected for the fall away/swing test?
I'm starting to believe my body is gonna outlast my mind.

Tacocaster

hbkeith - the spacer was the ticket for me.

Hey Chief? Since you're stuck, you might try this......pull the front tire (again!)and brake calipers to remove as much weight off the front end as possible (since this is a RG you can leave the fairing/radio/nav on).

With someone's help to stabilize the bike (side to side) and support under the rear tire (so the bike won't rock) grab the bottom of the forks (axle point) or some other easy-for-you-to-grab point of access and see if you can lift the front end - as if you were a bump in the road (Wife has called me that before). It will take some effort - reciprocal to the amount of weight removed, so lean into it.

If you can lift (don't expect a "bearing pop") you might hear a clunk. If it barks....you'll need a spacer. Place one of appropriate thickness either under the neck/above the lower tree or above the neck/under the upper tree (the upper tree is the obviously easier of the two) and remember - Don't pinch your bearing!
Let us know - or let me know if you think I'm whacked (wife has done that to me before too)
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

Tacocaster

Oh, and Chief? Assuming all things typical.....there are mistakes made by OE manufacturers from time to time so don't assume "the right part(s) are installed". Add to that, it just might be the original owner was not 100% honest with you. Surprised?
He might have had a "boo-boo" and damaged the front steering mechanism in some small way he thought was not worth mentioning.

And out of curiosity.....why CCE and not OEM? Couldn't be price.

Don't give up. Keep working the problem and please keep us updated on your progress for "the next guy".
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

rigidthumper

IME, too much preload on the neck bearings will cause a weave at low speed.  Too little preload on the neck bearings will cause a wobble, most noticeable on decel about 40 MPH.
Ensure bearings are in good condition, & have proper adequate grease.
With front end off the ground ( whatever safe method you choose), remove anything that can interfere with swing. (clutch cable is usually the only thing)
Loosen top caps, pinch bolts, and top nut 1 full turn- you should be able to rotate tubes in trees by hand. Rotate tubes 180°.
Perform fall away, adjusting the star until you get 2 swings (from hard left or right, when released, wheel returns past center (1) and starts back the other direction (2), stopping before heading back in the original direction (which would be 3).
Check from both directions, adjusting star as necessary. Once satisfied, tighten the top caps, then torque to spec. Ensure the trees are staying square to each other while tightening.
Repeat fall away tests- if it hasn't changed, move on to tighten the top nut, verify the trees are staying square to each other, torque to spec. Cycle the front end side to side- is it smooth? If so, tighten pinch bolts, torque to spec.
Restore all connections,cables, etc, and test ride to evaluate- If no weave, and no wobble, enjoy.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Admiral Akbar

Maybe it's the tail wagging the dog?

PoorUB

It wouldn't be the first time someone was fixing the wrong end!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Chief0299

Breeze- yea, clutch cable disconnected.

Taco- ill give it a shot. Ive shook the hell out of the front end in the past and found nothing. Many times. Never had any play in lower fork legs, upper sliders, trees... nothing. The only parts left that are stock is the lower tree and lower fork legs. The last time I replaced the neck bearings, the bearing on the bottom tree was a huge pain to get off and the new one on. I ended up cutting the old bearing off. But, the poor handling existed before that. Its possible that the previous owner wasn't truthful. Its a 2011 and I bought it in 2017 with 28k miles on it. The guy had all kinds of long ride stuff installed like heat controllers for electric suits. He told me he treated it as a touring bike... long rides out of state and such. I chose the cce upper tree because of the clamps. I wanted to eliminate that part of the possibilities while chasing down the culprit of my handling problems.

Rigid- i have noticed slow speed weave when everything was torqued to spec. When loosened and correct fallaway, no weave. But... also no fork shake above 40mph either. The way I've checked it is to get going about 55mph in 3rd gear and abruptly let go of the controls so all the weight goes forward and loads the front end. The current setup will not shake the forks, but has instability in curves and the bearings pop on hard braking.

Admiral/Poor- it could be the rear. I installed solid metal bushings in the rear mounts along with the alloy art bracket that goes over the starter to eliminate rear movement. Vibrated like absolute hell, but did not affect handling at all.






04 SE Deuce

May not be related to your problem but a few years back a member here chased a clunk in the front end on a bike that he installed CCE tubes/trees on.  Switched back to stock trees/tubes eliminated the clunk.  I don't remember if CCE just replaced the tubes or trees also but problem was solved.

Ajayrk

Did you replace the bearing race as well?  They could be notchy.
AJ

Tacocaster

Hey Chief? One more question....By any chance, does the front wheel have spokes - I don't mean the OEM stock cast aluminum spokes Ultras came with in 2011). Just wondering if the PO changed the wheel, and again just overlooked mentioning it.

Loose spokes was another experience I had with a buddy's RK our dealer overlooked. His were rear wheel loose but he had the wobble in the bars. Yup! The handlebars. Found it purely by accident while trying to figure out his problem.
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

Tacocaster

Check That! HD DID offer the chrome laced wheels on the 2011 RG Ultra. Check them spokes if ya got 'em!
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

Chief0299

Deuce- the popping and handling issues were present before changing the tree and are still happening.

Ajayrk- yes. Bearing races were replaced when bearings were replaced.

Taco- wheels are thunderstar wheels. Previous owner didn't like the touring wheels that came on the bike from the factory and had them swapped when the thunderstars came in, about a month after purchase.

Chief0299

After seeing another post about axle adjusters... im gonna bite the bullet soon and pick up a set of the Kraus Vector one adjusters and axle. Its worth a shot. I have noticed in the past that the rear axle has shifted, but I never gave it much thought since it was mostly just the right side cam. And only when torquing the axle.

May help the handling, may not. We'll see. Ill let yall know findings as it progresses.

kd

To that point you may also notice the loose fit of the slip on axle adjuster cam over the axle flats.  I find it hard to believe that both sides move in tandem and evenly on each side.  It has bothered me that the cams end up in different spots in their adjustment arc right off the bat.
KD

xlfan

What do you mean by neck bearing popping when hard breaking?