2001 softail springer breaking up sounds like run on 1 cylinder

[KatalogKarl]

Hello to all. My first interaction with a twinkee. Older gent who has bike since new. He replaced CV carb because original one crappy and gummed up due to his negligence. He Just starts and runs it. Left fuel in it and after I drained it, floating spectacle's and a serious bad smell and it was yellow. Cleaned tank and made sure petcock clean. But Carb was loose as were all connections to heads. Seen intake seals were a bit dried and some material missing on inner side of seal. So Carb Cleaned bowl and made sure passages were clean and clear with carb cleaner. Seems ok. New seals on intake. Started bike as with fresh new battery (old one failed load test). Bike will start with choke out and it starts to break up as its running on one cylinder. (Same compliant by owner before he changed carb). Got it started with choke out and sprayed carb cleaner around manifold as to see if changes in running. ( Wonder if any changes with choke out) well no changes noted. Checked spark to plugs using inline spark tester(lights up when power present) all good. Went over coil no cracks or burn marks same for ignition switch.
Took carb and manifold off. Checked flatness of intake flanges against each other in same direction and on flay surface. Rear flange just a tad wobbly. So maybe 1 issue there. Looked for ignition pickup in cone of motor BUT ?? there were no wires. So since this is my first twinkee how to check ignition pick up? I also see sensor on intake manifold. And Bike is equipped with SE ignition module. So me as a newbie to these what are the steps in order to diagnose and repair this?? Or send him to another?   To me sounds like classic Lean issue with bad seals but with this being a sensor oriented motor< I wonder. Like car engines sensors can give same results. Some thoughts and Inputs always welcomed. Karl   

[kd]

Year?  Is the replacement carb OEM or an aftermarket clone like Ultima?

[Coyote]

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[kd]

     [attach=0,msg1369832]

      I just noticed that. 

[calif phil]

I would clean the OEM carb and put it back on if he still has it.  The Ebay CV knock off's are a crap shoot, some work and some don't . 

[KatalogKarl]

Update. Spent a few hours on this bike. Carb looks and has marking as its a real deal Harley carb. P/N#s , logo and all. Took off manifold again and looked at seals and went to local Indy shop to find another set of manifold flanges, Indy shop gave me stock set of flanges and I noticed same slight wobble same as originals. Flanges taken off seem to be ok then. Re-installed flanges, seals and paid attention with carb installation using air cleaner backing plate with cylinder breather attachment (kuryakyn Hyper charger). Little white lube helped me to try to center manifold onto flanges. All things connected motor fires up with choke out and I have to throttle it from throttle cable wheel (owner screwed up throttle cables, grip) and easing in and off choke engine is farting, popping breaking up out of exhaust under throttle load. Both plugs seem to be getting wet from fuel due to soot(slightly black). still same problem. Disconnected MAP sensor to see if engine would run worse. No. Same breaking up. went as far as use carb cleaner on sensor. No help. Went back and ran thru coil with my inline  plug tester and both cylinders have spark and a bright pulse can be seen from tester. Noticed from primary side of bike when putting bracket between cylinders holding horn on a threaded hole in front cylinder. Is this where a Temp sensor is placed. This bike seems not to have all wiring and plugs ( I guess because its not Fuel Injected) ?? Anyhow I have to ask ? Talk to owner who has selective memory. He bought bike, all ignition module ( SE) is original and never replaced map sensor or module. So am a point to think its not carb related. I say this as using throttle wheel the engine will rev just spitting ,farting , popping out exhaust. Looked  thru 500 pages of threads to see if this has been talked about before. Anyone feel possibility of map sensor or module on rear fender crapping out. Anyone can relay symptoms of these? I do not have known units to swap out and see? Anyone got slightly used and working ones? suggestions and thoughts.. Hmm. Karl   

[Hossamania]

Does it do this without the hypercharge installed, vacuum line plugged?
(Hyperchargers are not highly respected here by most)
When you say the owner has issues with the cables, what does that mean?
Did this start happening after he worked on it? (Skip that, I understand it happened before, leading to the carb change.)
Pull the choke assembly out of the carb and check it for damage, worn o-ring (been a while, thought there is one on the piston).
Try to get a different ignition module, and a map sensor, as you are. Unplug the ignition, clean the connector. Those ignitions are pretty hardy, but failures happen.
Keep checking for random vacuum leaks. What type of petcock? Stock or aftermarket? No vacuum leak either way on that line?
Have you changed the spark plugs?
Is the exhaust plugged?

[Scotty]

I wonder what else has been done that he has "forgotten about" 
I got brought a Evo that was low on power and back firing and farting and just a pig but it was running fine before.
Turned out he had someone put a cam in and thin metal head gaskets which were not torqued down they were hand tight and the manifold was almost pointing up I don't even know how they got the air cleaner on.
You never know what has been going on could even be a cam install that has gone bad and dots not line up.

[Hossamania]

How long did that old fuel sit in the new carburetor? Have you pulled the pilot jet to at least check it for blockage?
When it starts with the choke on, does it idle? What happens if you push the choke in?

[KatalogKarl]

Thank you all for replies. Let me try to answer your questions. Reason for me to use carb throttle cable wheel was because of pull cable to grip(barrel insert) burn thru where grip would stick in W/O position. Aftermarket petcock. Flow is good, 1 piece tank. Exhaust seems to be open. I say this because I MIGHT have to remove Voyager kit attached to bike. But when You look pipes all seems clear? Plugs changed out because I personally do not like Iridium plugs. Installed NGK eqiv. to 6R12. .040 gap. As stated before. Had new carb upside down and removed bowl. Cleaned jets using carb cleaner and torch tip cleaning bits. Remember this is a new HD carb. How long on bike ?? unknown to me. Owner selective memory. Owner has his own health issue.as Hossamania  tip in This Hypercharger is a big Turd. Literally. Hose from top of CV has been plugged and unplugged, still same farting , spitting out exhaust. So I am trying to source a Good Used ignition module even if its not current updated model. 32568-00 is what I find. from sort of 1999-2000 and up to 2003 from 0 and thru A, B, and ending in C current. Now Supposelly owner I suggested to get me a map sensor. Until I can get module at reasonable price (test Unit known good) this may have to wait. Depends on owners willingness to pay. I have to check out some other routes as here we go again.  While I was working on this bike, Guy rolls up on his bike and glances and mentions last time he seen this bike and owner was on side of road. How Long Ago ?? Over 6 months. Seems owner ran out of gas (gas gauge in tank no working) and he helped him get fuel and this is where 2 different accounts come into Play. Guy who helped older gent stuck with fuel problem mentioned something like he had to jump start this bike? I asked owner on phone when his problem with fuel happened did he jump start bike or any other time after fuel issue has he jumped , or used jump pack. Answer No. So this is where one is throwing all at who is truthful and what is it. Has anyone ever had Issue with ignition module going out with any battery jump. Be it car to bike or using jump pack. A previous thread I worked on a bike someone used a battery boost and fried electronic module. But I was there and seen Poof Smoke.  So kinda of why I am leaning to ignition/electrical thing. Awaiting email from sellers on E--y if my bid is accepted. Anyone have one for sale? Got ask phil. Mostly from what I can determine only by looking at what is on bike all is original except for the addition of Voyager kit and Additional lights. Engine only has really 3 items for ignition I say. Crank sensor , Map sensor and Ignition module. It cranks and runs maybe idle with choke full out. Advance throttle whichever way farting , back firing spitting exhaust. Why I lean this way. Thoughts , suggestions always welcomed. As always just trying to understand more than my Shovels.. Karl     

[KatalogKarl]

Continue, Owner has dropped off new Map sensor. Now I do not have first hand knowledge. Owner was asked when carb change out occurred. Seems a year or less ago. When was his episode of running out of fuel. Gets Murky. Maybe a month or so ago. ( I did not hear this firsthand) But supposelly bike ran fine until gas issue. Here we go again, chasing stuff. Would hate to rip carb apart and find nothing. BTW, supposelly original carb is in his possession. Will be asking for that as well. Thanks for listening....Karl   

[kd]

Karl, using the KISS method, if you need the choke out to make it run it is probably a fuel issue.  It sounds as though the carb and breather base may have been removed several times.  I know you said you changed the manifold seals but the mention of the funky breather seems co-inky dinky. When you reattach the breather base, is there any space between the breather base mounting surface and the head breather port surface.  If so, tightening down the breather will push the manifold to the left and possibly cause a lean air leak. The same would hold true if for example the carb base or breather base gasket is too thin and after assembly of the base it may pull the manifold to the right. Those types of leaks can cause the very symptoms you describe. S&S sells rubber coated shims to address that issue.

Once you get your hands on the original carb you can check the jet sizes and compare them to the new carb.  That could be part of the problem too.

[KatalogKarl]

KD. Interesting. As far as jets I only looked at main jet thru magnify glass. 190 or 192or5. Others I have not pulled out. Need to get old carb. You mention breather base and port alignment. Kuryakyn  breather backing with no shims and then there is the hypercharger backplate with spacer from carb to hyperchrgr bakplte. What a total crap set up. Head breather bolts? no shims present between breather base and heads. It came to me with none. Yes I tighten breather bolts tight. Did I cause a movement. Possible.  So follow me here as I do not seem a bit stupid? when looking at intake manifold from primary side and after intake flanges are tightened down the gap from thicker part to turn down part of manifold (toward heads) grows ? of course? because of tightening. A how much of a gap on manifold should  or would be? Sorry for sounding like a dunce. But the KISS method is kicking me a bit. Yep again I go overthinking. Done Evo's (Intake) a few times and got it right. Breather base bolts are not flat. They are beveled and probably for alignment sake should  be something other than what is here. Breather base and bolts. Should take pics for you. Understand about fuel issue.  Thanks Karl

[calif phil]

I would start with replacing the low speed jet.  A new or clean .45 jet will probably fix it. 

I would have suggested this first but I assumed you had cleaned it. 

[Pete_Vit]

Gas issues and bike breaking up sounds all to familiar to me, after a top end rebuild and a new fuel filter for my ride, I found I was sold a inline fuel filter, a nice shiny chrome one with NO FILTER ELEMNT INSIDE  I had to tear down the carb, clean the jets, get a filter -
when cleaning the jets a some FOD fell out of the jet.   

[kd]

KD. Interesting. As far as jets I only looked at main jet thru magnify glass. 190 or 192or5. Others I have not pulled out. Need to get old carb. You mention breather base and port alignment. Kuryakyn  breather backing with no shims and then there is the hypercharger backplate with spacer from carb to hyperchrgr bakplte. What a total crap set up. Head breather bolts? no shims present between breather base and heads. It came to me with none. Yes I tighten breather bolts tight. Did I cause a movement. Possible.  So follow me here as I do not seem a bit stupid? when looking at intake manifold from primary side and after intake flanges are tightened down the gap from thicker part to turn down part of manifold (toward heads) grows ? of course? because of tightening. A how much of a gap on manifold should  or would be? Sorry for sounding like a dunce. But the KISS method is kicking me a bit. Yep again I go overthinking. Done Evo's (Intake) a few times and got it right. Breather base bolts are not flat. They are beveled and probably for alignment sake should  be something other than what is here. Breather base and bolts. Should take pics for you. Understand about fuel issue.  Thanks Karl

If I am understanding what you are saying, You have the carb mounted in place on the manifold, you then snug down the backing plate breather bolt after which you do the breather base to carb (and spacer) fasteners.  As you snug the breather base to the carb you have noticed the "gap" between the head flanges and the manifold flanges (where the seal sits) grows larger.  If you look at the angle of the head flanges they are to the rt (cam) side of the engine. For that space to grow, the manifold would have to be moving toward the breather base which is already secured to the head.  The only way that can happen is if there is a space between the carb and breather base. That can be resolved by adding an appropriate thickness gasket or adding a thinner one(s) to a stack to take up that space.

If I am wrong with understanding your post, if it were me, I would use this procedure.  First mount the manifold and just snug it into place.  Your seals should have a very slight lube to them so it will pull down later but allow slight up or down adjustment to mate to the outer components when installing them. You can feel for matching the ports inside with your fingers without the carb attached and adjust it as you snug the manifold flange fasters to the head.  It is much easier to work on installing the manifold fasteners without the carb in place too.

Next attach the carb to the manifold, making sure that the seal from the carb base to the manifold is perfect.  If an O-ring, is it above the surface so it will seal?  If a gasket is it in good enough condition that it will still compress and cover the complete area of the carb base to manifold surface?  Snug the base bolts to the proper torque spec being careful not to disturb the flange mounting position.

Lastly place the backing plate against the assembly with the crankcase vent breather stands in position.  Thread the head breather bolts into the heads not quite finger tight and take notice of if whether there is any space between the breather base and the head, or between the breather base surface (with the spacer and a gasket each side of it that you describe) and the carb.

If there is a space between the breather base vent stands and the head (with full flat contact to the carb) you will likely need to shim them. (ie. with the S&S shims I described earlier) If the space is between the carb top and the breather base you will have to shim that (generally with a gasket fix).  The thing to remember is with a gap in either place as you pull down the fasteners that needs to close that gap, you are shifting the manifold to head position.  This can disturb those seals and the alignment.  Because the are lubed and not totally tightened,  after the breather base fit is confirmed to have no gaps at either mounting point, you can now "evenly" tighten the manifold to head fasteners.  The light lube will assist the seal in finding it's position to make a good seal into the manifold gap. Once you have this fine tuned any further R&R is a straight forward deal as long as you remember where any shims you may have installed go.

[Hossamania]

Does the accelerator pump squirt raw fuel into the throat when the throttle is turned?

[KatalogKarl]

Hossamania, Accelerator pumps fuel when throttle turned. As KD mentions, My routine putting carb , manifold , breather base and backplate together goes as i do Evo's. A little lube on intake seals use 5/16x18 x 3/4 inch hex bolts on Primary side for ease of tightening on flanges but 3-4 turns out for manifold alignment. same for cone side which still has Allen bolts. Carb mounted with No cables attached and put breather backing plate with spacer and Hyprchgr backplate together just tight enough that play is there and I can center manifold and all. Then when I am sure its right snug up primary side intake bolts enough so I can remove (breather and air clnr bkplte) and tighten cone side intake Allen's. Thus reinstall everything else and try not to move manifold. I have to be overlooking something simple. KISS Theory from KD. Older gent who installed carb ran bike for months before running out of gas. So I have to rule out again fuel and or something I cannot see in jet/carb area. Major problems when events such as bad fuel or running it out of fuel happens. Here by me ethanol free gas is available. Many will not use it. Plus one leaves fuel in tank for months on end and thinks all is OK. HAs anyone heard the term by people who want you to work on there bike say" Well it ran when I gave it to you". Yeah right. Came to me on a trailer. Will update all. Thanks for input all. Karl 

[Hossamania]

They always "run just fine", right but before they don't!
Good luck, you've got your hands full. As California Phil mentioned, consider pulling the pilot jet and clean it or get a new one. Did you pull out the emulsion tube and inspect the holes to make sure they are not plugged?
Also, maybe a compression test is in order, just to rule out an issue there.

[Tacocaster]

You have to fully engage choke to idle? Sounds like a lean condition. She's sucking air and likely to the intake side of the combustion chambers. 

Like KD says, "KISS". Don't jump to a solution. Instead analyze by performing basic tests and if you're not an experienced mechanic, take you time and think things and results through.

There are three basic requirements - Air, Fuel Fire. Too much Air, too much Fuel can cause a bike to act like yours. Yes, electrical issue can as well which can be categorized as Fire. But this sounds like Air from what you've described.
For now, forget the Fuel and Fire and concentrate on Air.

Have you tried a propane or similar "ether-like" tests yet around the Intake seals and/or carb flange with bike running? Be careful you don't overspray the "vapors" into the carb's Venturi or you might get a false positive.
Don't drench the Intake seals at the head but get enough "vapour" around the entire sealing area to ensure they are not sucking it in.

Next try the Carb to Intake seal. Personally, I'd toss that Hypercharger (at least for the test) so you can get behind the Carb.

The hollowed-out Head Breather (HB) Bolts DO NOT have to be 'overly" tight for these tests. Remember what they are there for and how they work. They are designed to: 1. support the Carb and 2. for expulsion of oil blowby - they do not suck (unless the umbrella valves have become too rigid with age).
As a last Hail Mary, you can plug these HB ports as a test. If you simply have to have them tight to the head, at least place spacers behind them to take up the slack (space) from snug so there is minimum stress in the backing plate and ergo, the final position of the carb and Intake Manifold relative to the Intake Ports.

Go ahead with the other tests and checks as suggested above - everybody's right until you find the actual problem(s) but keep your spending in check. This is NOT major surgery. It's just frustrating. Clear the easy stuff away first.

Oh! And one more.....assuming you find nothing above helps, try a little smoke or butane around the exhaust at the heads. I've seen exhaust leaks cause weird symptoms similar to yours. She is a big air pump after all.

[KatalogKarl]

  With All. But it seems I had a break through. With some help. I apologize for some ODD or out there thoughts on problems but in my existence on this planet certain things I have touched did not end well. Some of us been there, I think. Helps when you work on a bike and having tank off to get into tight spots is so damn easy. This Hypercharger is total crappola  . Seems when bike is backfiring and spitting it makes a hell of a racket. Where owner lives people tend to gather and give there 2 cents. Manifold leaks and all thrown at me. But am pretty confident I got that part down pat. Took carb off and started to go back into it. I Understand KISS theory and agree but my mind wanders forward. Yes even thought about ether and butane trick, But I stick to carb cleaner because usually or in close area around me I could have a cigar or someone with those funny rolled cigarettes' around. My Bad. So into the carb and pulling jets out a guy new to the "block" comes up and asks if I had taken out the jets. Am about to do that when I had him look at Low speed jet. Even tho I cleaned carb before and made sure all was clean, picked up on a spot on inside of low jet. Whether it was a rock, stuck crap or whatever when compared to a new jet slight difference. Something that can easily been dismissed and others said "nah" its good. $17.00 bucks and a 1 1/2 round trip to dealer and when all installed engine started ,idled and no spitting from carb after warmed up. Just flushing gas tank out with some EvapOrust I have to remove whatever including rust from tank. This stuff is waterbased and will not eat the paint up on outside. Used it on my tanks and allowed to air dry helps inhibit growth of most. Probably a good idea to install fuel filter inline as defense from crapoola floating into carb. Ethanol free gas is 2.60 a gallon here for now and I do not understand why many more people do not use it. Or at least a good fuel stabilizer. Again thank you to all who chimed in.  Karl     

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Pilot jet most likely plugged.

[Hossamania]

Good on you for getting it going!
An in line fuel filter will probably cause more problems than it solves. Not much room to mount it and keep a nice flow. Make sure the screen on the petcock is in good condition, that should be enough of a filter.
I use only non-ethanol fuel (unless unavailable on a trip), especially when the bike sits for long times.
Try and get the owner to ditch that Hypercharger and get a good high flow filter and cover. A lot of stock air cleaner assemblies available for cheap, use a high flow filter under the stock cover.

Pilot jet most likely plugged.

That seems to have been the problem.

[Tacocaster]

Great to hear, Good stuff and thanks for updating this thread with the problem you found.

[kd]

  That was a good approach.  One step at a time.  Make a plan and stick to it.