1999 TC 88, low low miles... current cost of cam plate/tensioner fixes?

Started by 1982fxr, December 21, 2020, 09:17:51 PM

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1982fxr

Hey guys been out of the bike game a few years.  Might go look at a 1999 FXDWG with less than 5k on the clock.

I never owned a TC.  Poking around it sounds like the Screaming Eagle fixes are actually on the cheaper side compared to the aftermarket guys?

I guess I'm talking about the cam plate/HV oil pump and hydraulic tensioner conversion...

1982fxr

It should be safe to ride as is for a couple thousand miles right?

I just want to factor in costs before making an offer.  If I do.

MikeL

Those early TC's had problems with the outer rear cam bearing. There was a recall. Find out if this bike was in the "bad" bearing area and if it was, was it fixed under warranty. Also the inner cam bearings were crap and need to be replaced also. The spring tensioners are crap and it it were me I would convert to the hydraulic tensioner hybrid cam backing plate or go gear drive.. Other than the cam problems the bottom end is solid and is a decent platform for performance modifications

                                                                                                                                                                  MIKE

Hossamania

I agree on the gear drive, I love mine, haven't been into the cam chest in 15 years, 90,000 miles. Your tensioners, while not worn, are old and probably brittle, replacement sooner rather than later would be prudent, in my mind anyway.
I don't have any help on prices of hydraulic conversion, a good choice as well.
And as long as you're in there, a cam swap ii pretty easy...
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

MikeL

Quote from: 1982fxr on December 21, 2020, 09:19:26 PM
It should be safe to ride as is for a couple thousand miles right?

I just want to factor in costs before making an offer.  If I do.
Knowing a lot of twin cam owners over the years the motorcycles that were ridden and not parked the spring shoes seem to last longer than the parked garage queens. I believe sitting a long time the oil dries off the chain. The shoes do not see lube oil immediately upon start up.
With that being said i would definitely bring up the tensioners needing to be replaced and the cost to do the repair/upgrade depending what route you want to take.
If it were me I would trailer it home and fix it by installing gear drive as long as the crank outrun is less than .004.
Talk to California Phil he is a part vender on HTT he can help you out on price of parts

                                                                                                                                                                    MIKE

Buglet

   Just had one come in the crank run out was .0003 that is the best I ever seen. The bearing are getting replaced and putting in Cyco shoes in. Cost for parts are about $ 125.   

kd

If the previous owner doesn't know if the warranty work was done the MOCO can tell you.  I have imported a couple of bikes into Canada and we are required to ensure any recalls for that model are up to date.  I got the info I needed from Harley.
KD

Buglet

  I think in the U.S. they did a good will not a recall. If it went bad before 50K or a certain amount years they would repair it but not a recall. The stock work just as good as updating it unless you are planning to build the motor up. 

PoorUB

IMO, what ever repairs you do would be dictated by how many miles you plan on riding. Not many? Put the stock cam chain tensioners back in and don't worry about it for 40,000 miles.

Planning on riding it a lot? The newer style cam plate with the hydraulic tensioners, roller chain and conversion cams.

Gears are ok too, but the runout has to be in spec and the gears can be noisey.

The SE plate still uses the old style chain, Not a big fan of it.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

SP33DY

If you don't want to change cams, S&S has a camplate & oil pump upgrade that uses hydraulic tensioners and early style cams. No conversion cam necessary.

S&S 310-0731
MSRP $723.95

smoserx1

I'm one of those guys with a 1999 TC and still ride it.  Here is some info that may help you out.  All 1999 twin cams had the problematic rear ball bearing.  The fix was a 2 piece roller bearing, but it is more complicated than just that.  The early 1999 twin cams has rear cams that attached to the sprocket using a woodruff key.  Sometime in 99 they changed this design so that the rear cam attaches to the sprocket with splines.  If you have the early keyed cams they likely won't work any upgrade, including the replacement roller bearing, so you may very well have to buy a new set of cams regardless (and that includes the screaming eagle kit you mentioned or the S&S kit mentioned in this thread).  And no there was never an actual recall on the bearing.  If it failed within 5 years or 50000 miles it got fixed (mine failed at 34000 miles).  With only 5000 miles on it I doubt this one has been replaced.

The 99 TC used a cam position sensor that requires the rear cam sprocket incorporate a "trigger ring."  This is a 180° protruding ridge made into the sprocket.  Any upgrade you choose will require a trigger ring sprocket or gear unless you replace the ignition module with a later one that ignores the cam position sensor.  Make sure that you can get a proper sprocket or gear before you proceed.  The ones with trigger rings are probably going to be scarce, since the newer twin cams don't use them.

Finally if it an early 99 the right side engine case will lack a boss for an oil passage (used in the later softail engines) and a replacement cam plate will have an oil feed hole that will need to be blocked or a loss or oil pressure will occur.  Make sure anyone working on this bike is aware of these issues.  Good luck!


1982fxr

Smoserx1, you may have just talked me out of making an offer on this bike.

Maybe I should listen to my own advice; never buy a first year Harley anything.

1982fxr

My last bike was a 1982 fxr shovelhead.  Both a first for me.  It became a Neverending project and I got so sick of trying to learn what bastard year parts would and wouldn't fit, not being able to find factory parts, etc.

It sucked and I don't ever want to go through that again. 

motorhogman

Quote from: 1982fxr on December 22, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Smoserx1, you may have just talked me out of making an offer on this bike.

Maybe I should listen to my own advice; never buy a first year Harley anything.

LOL  I agree.. I bought an 01 FLHT in Sept of 2000.. One of the best machines I have ever owned.  I waited,  as much as I was drooling over the new TC platform. 115,000 and 20 years later and still enjoying it.
where's the points and condenser ?<br />Tom / aka motor

MikeL

If you can get the bike for $3500-$4000 it would be worth it. A good friend has the same year he bought it new and in 19 years on put 6k miles on it. He knew about all the faults cause I told him. He went gear drive 510 S&S cams along with fueling spring, torrington inner bearings, spark plugs, 3 hole oil service, upgraded head breathers and rocker cover gasket. Re jet the carb with the sportster needle and a used adjustable ignition module It came in less than $1800. If you do the work yourself it will be cheaper.

                                                                                                                                                                MIKE

1982fxr

Well this sucks.  I really want an evo FXDWG but not having much luck.  Twin cams are just...I don't want to drop a bunch of cash and have a really expensive problem and before I know most of my savings is gone.

My buddy and his wife bought a series of new bikes around the 2015 era.  Every bike was back at the dealer constantly.  They said everyone in their riding club was having the same experiences.

It makes me afraid to buy a newer bike since there won't be a warranty.

FSG

QuoteIf you can get the bike for $3500-$4000 it would be worth it.

:agree:

what's it going to cost you to buy ?

1982fxr

They recently lowered it from $7,000 down to $5,000.  That's when I saw it.

Add has phrase deal of a lifetime so I wouldn't expect the most flexible seller.  I think it's someone older who doesn't ride anymore, but not sure about that.

wolf_59

You can replace the cam chain tensioners and cam bearings for under $200 if you can do wrenching yourself and have access to the tools. Then ride it for awhile to decide if you want to keep it before throwing more money into gear drive and cams or hydraulic tensioners set up.

Hossamania

I agree, even if you pay someone to change them, it's about a 4 to 6 hour job, under $1000.
Beside just the money for the tensioners, what about the rest of the bike? Tires, fuel system, battery, tires? If it has been sitting a long time, inspect the inside of the fuel tank. If stored with ethanol fuel, the carb is probably molded green and black inside, even if stabilizer was used. $5k would be the top of the price range for me, I'd shoot for lower. It's still a 22 year old bike with 22 year old wiring, etc., mileage aside. But it's worth a look if in good shape.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

smoserx1

QuoteSmoserx1, you may have just talked me out of making an offer on this bike.

Maybe I should listen to my own advice; never buy a first year Harley anything.

I wasn't trying to talk you out of it but rather pointing out some differences the 99s had (especially the early ones) that some people just don't know about.  I still ride my early 99 FLHT that I bought new in January 99 and it has almost 220000 miles on it.  It is an excellent machine.  I learned very quickly how to work on it as my servicing dealer at the time was IMO almost beyond incompetent.  that dealership went out of business during the recession of the 2008 era.  Here are a few other differences:

That bike has a carburetor.  The 99 twin cam carburetors were jetted leaner than the subsequent years.  Mine came with a 42 slow and a 185 main jet and a NOKM needle.  It was way to lean to run good in cold weather.  The next year they upped the jets to a 45/190 combo.  Also the 99s use brakes from the EVO (and maybe earlier) era including the spade shaped front pads and the wheels will probably have packable wheel bearings which are normally serviced at tire  changes.  Finally the 99s used different lifters which tended to bleed down overnight and clatter on startup the next day.  Anyway you can look at the data label on the neck of the frame and tell when it was made.  Early ones will have the keyed cams and lack the oil boss.  All 99s will have the rear cam bearing issue (and some early 2000s as well) and will have cam position sensors.  I have serviced my cams twice.  The first time I replaced the tensionsers and installed SE 203 cams (hydraulic tensioners were not an option then).  The second time I went with Andrews 21N conversion cams and the complete 2007 camplate/oil pump setup and that camplate does not use bearings.  I think I paid about $650 for the parts the second time and I already had a set of adjustable pushrods (another $150 or so).  This was in 2010, so figure in some inflation.  Andrews website has comversion cam instructions which list the parts you would need, and also discuss the oil boss and trigger ring issues.

Buglet

   Unless you are planning on keeping that bike for a long time and that's the bike you really want Then it's worth getting it for the $5000. Other then that I would not pay anything over $3000 for it. Right now there is plenty of newer bikes you can get in that price range. Had a 09 EG Ultra clean low miles sold for $5600. They are out there.

calif phil

A 1999 FXDWG is a nice bike and one with 5000 miles is worth $5000 if it's in excellent condition, but I would start at $4000.   Buy it, ride it and enjoy it. 


kd

KD

1982fxr

Quote from: Buglet on December 23, 2020, 05:32:10 AM
   Unless you are planning on keeping that bike for a long time and that's the bike you really want Then it's worth getting it for the $5000. Other then that I would not pay anything over $3000 for it. Right now there is plenty of newer bikes you can get in that price range. Had a 09 EG Ultra clean low miles sold for $5600. They are out there.

Here's the thing, like I mentioned above my buddy and his wife Had a series of new bikes starting in around 2015 and every one was back at the dealer constantly.  Every time it was something that would have been very expensive and everyone in their riding group was having similar experiences.

It makes me afraid to own a TC without a warranty, which is all of them.  I was thinking this bike was last year evo when I originally inquired.

I've got $5k plus to drop on a bike but I don't want it to drain my life savings to keep it on the road.  Have I become overly paranoid about twin cams?

Hossamania

Looking at it doesn't cost anything. Who knows, you might like it!
No need to be paranoid about twin cams, they have a few issues, but nothing to be afraid of if you know what you're looking for. Buying any used bike comes with risks, even Evos......
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

Quote from: 1982fxr on January 15, 2021, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: Buglet on December 23, 2020, 05:32:10 AM
   Unless you are planning on keeping that bike for a long time and that's the bike you really want Then it's worth getting it for the $5000. Other then that I would not pay anything over $3000 for it. Right now there is plenty of newer bikes you can get in that price range. Had a 09 EG Ultra clean low miles sold for $5600. They are out there.

Here's the thing, like I mentioned above my buddy and his wife Had a series of new bikes starting in around 2015 and every one was back at the dealer constantly.  Every time it was something that would have been very expensive and everyone in their riding group was having similar experiences.

It makes me afraid to own a TC without a warranty, which is all of them.  I was thinking this bike was last year evo when I originally inquired.

I've got $5k plus to drop on a bike but I don't want it to drain my life savings to keep it on the road.  Have I become overly paranoid about twin cams?

I'm curious what issues your friends had with their bikes.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

1982fxr

I think it was usually engine and electrical, but I'm going off memory.

safetyfifth

No need to be worried about a TC. Both my bikes have carried me coast to coast with very few issues.
Im still running the spring loaded tensioners and cyco pads. Feuling makes a great replacement oil pump that works with the stock cam plate. Nice thing about these early twin cams, used parts are plentiful on ebay and secondhand shops.

838

Most of the issues with the early TC's were in the can chest. Tensioner our outer cam bearing failure. I've experienced both, lucky for me neither were catastrophic. They are easily remedied though and with a low mileage bike I'd do it right out of the gate and never think about it again.

Gear Drives, conversion cam plate and cams, or upgraded spring loaded tensioner pads are all viable options. Those are listed in order of how long they will last before inspection/replacement. I'd pop a set of s&s 509 gear drives in there with new inner and outer bearings, new lifters, adjustable pushrods and ride on for 100k 👍.

wolf_59

Quote from: 838 on January 16, 2021, 12:36:12 PM
Most of the issues with the early TC's were in the can chest. Tensioner our outer cam bearing failure. I've experienced both, lucky for me neither were catastrophic. They are easily remedied though and with a low mileage bike I'd do it right out of the gate and never think about it again.

Gear Drives, conversion cam plate and cams, or upgraded spring loaded tensioner pads are all viable options. Those are listed in order of how long they will last before inspection/replacement. I'd pop a set of s&s 509 gear drives in there with new inner and outer bearings, new lifters, adjustable pushrods and ride on for 100k 👍.
:up:  :up: not even sure I would change lifters those are probably better than most available

Cozz

I had my tensioners replaced a couple years ago, along with cam plate bearings. The whole job was 600 bucks. Original shoes were half gone at 30,000 miles. This was at a local Indy.
2004 Electraglide Ultra Classic

00fxd

Quote from: smoserx1 on December 22, 2020, 02:47:21 PMunless you replace the ignition module with a later one that ignores the cam position sensor.

Hey smoserx1, could you tell us the PN# of the Ign Module [and what ever other parts] to use to eliminate the CPS?
Thanks 00fxd

smoserx1

QuoteHey smoserx1, could you tell us the PN# of the Ign Module [and what ever other parts] to use to eliminate the CPS?
Thanks 00fxd

Yes it was 32478-99(A,B, or C) and also most any aftermarket adjustable one (like the Daytona Twin Tech).  The original version had no letter suffix and that one required the cam position sensor.  Please note this only applies to carbureted models.  Magneti Marelli fuel injected baggers use a different ecm that also controls fuel delivery and the cam position sensor cannot be eliminated on these models with a stock ECM upgrade (or so I think).


00fxd

Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2021, 04:29:27 AM
QuoteHey smoserx1, could you tell us the PN# of the Ign Module [and what ever other parts] to use to eliminate the CPS?
Thanks 00fxd

Yes it was 32478-99(A,B, or C) and also most any aftermarket adjustable one (like the Daytona Twin Tech).  The original version had no letter suffix and that one required the cam position sensor.  Please note this only applies to carbureted models.  Magneti Marelli fuel injected baggers use a different ecm that also controls fuel delivery and the cam position sensor cannot be eliminated on these models with a stock ECM upgrade (or so I think).

I don't suppose that you could put your hands on a bulletin on that?
Frank

smoserx1

QuoteI don't suppose that you could put your hands on a bulletin on that?
No I don't think there was ever a bulletin to that effect.  This is the closest to a bulletin I have found:
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tc88faq.aspx
The information is about half way down the page. My original module (32478-99) went bad and I replaced it with a 32478-99A and have disconnected the cam sensor.  It runs fine with it disconnected.  I know it could be argued my bike is running in wasted spark mode but I believe the original module will throw a code if the cam sensor is disconnected.  The absolute proof would be to check for a spark with the plugs removed and I will admit I  have not done that.

deejay99

I have a 99 TC Road King that had the cam bearing recall work and it's been fine ever since. As far as the 15 TC problems. I have a 15 Road Glide, my daughter has a 15 Street Glide and my grandson has a 14 Road king. They have all been great bikes.

00fxd

Quote from: smoserx1 on January 21, 2021, 05:00:06 AM
QuoteI don't suppose that you could put your hands on a bulletin on that?
No I don't think there was ever a bulletin to that effect.  This is the closest to a bulletin I have found:
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tc88faq.aspx
The information is about half way down the page. My original module (32478-99) went bad and I replaced it with a 32478-99A and have disconnected the cam sensor.  It runs fine with it disconnected.  I know it could be argued my bike is running in wasted spark mode but I believe the original module will throw a code if the cam sensor is disconnected.  The absolute proof would be to check for a spark with the plugs removed and I will admit I  have not done that.

Thanks again smoserx1
Frank

Pirsch Fire Wagon

Those are great engines to upgrade as the have the Tapered Bearing limiting Lateral Runout and "most" have only a minimum of Crank Sprocket / Pinion Shaft Runout. Gear Drive Cams are a non-issue.

IMO with any build over stock [if you're planning to] a Camplate / Oil Pump Combination is the best. Besides being older, the Aftermarket had plenty of time to hone their products and the cost is considerably less for bigger builds.

As stated the Inner Cam Bearings were an issue until May 2000. But, most likely has been changed if it's had Cams. Just to verify if the owner doesn't know, SEE paperwork of find someone with access to H-DNet to look at repairs / warranty records.

I have a 2000 with 164,000 and only did the top end at 110,000 when a ring finally gave up and said I quit. The Crank and Pinion had just shy of .003 Did the top end with everything [heads, cam, hybrid camplate, oil pump, lifters, etc. ] for about $2,500 [parts].
Tom

00fxd

Quote from: smoserx1 l
Hey smoserx1.
Sorry to flog this horse but one more question
I hope]. Regarding your helpful reply to me:

"Yes it was 32478-99(A,B, or C) and also most any aftermarket adjustable one (like the Daytona Twin Tech).  The original version had no letter suffix and that one required the cam position sensor"

Is the later pn# module plug and play-no wireing mods? I'm not scared, good with soldering and shrink tube. Just leave the cam posistion sensor unplugged? How about leave the cam sens as is, the new module doesn't even see that signal anymore?
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Hope I'm not hijacking this thread but I think it's relevant to first year Twin Cam owners
Thanks, Frank

smoserx1

QuoteIs the later pn# module plug and play-no wireing mods? I'm not scared, good with soldering and shrink tube. Just leave the cam posistion sensor unplugged? How about leave the cam sens as is, the new module doesn't even see that signal anymore?
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Hope I'm not hijacking this thread but I think it's relevant to first year Twin Cam owners
Thanks, Frank

You are not hijacking anything, these are good questions.  This was my experience.  The original module on my 99 started going bad sometime around 110000 miles.  It would die and come right back to life...no codes.  This caused a very quick hiccup in power.  Originally it was every few months and got steadily worse till it was every few minutes.  The new module (with the A suffix) cured the issue.  I left the cam position sensor installed.  However several years later I read on a forum somewhere that the modules for the 2001 versions did not need  the cam sensor, and I also found out the part number I had (the A version) was what originally came on 2001 carburetor equipped models.  These models had no cam position sensor from the factory.  So, I disconnected the sensor and it ran fine.  That was about 5 years ago.  I don't think it really mattered that the sensor was wired in or not...in retrospect I am thinking the superseded ignition modules simply ignore/don't see (electrically speaking) it if it is hooked up.  I ended up simply zip tying the harness of the cam sensor to the bottom frame tube of the bike.  On a 99 you can't just physically take the sensor out or that will leave a hole in the cam cover where oil could leak out.  If it really bothered you you could replace the cam cover on a 99 or 2000 with one from a 2001  which never used a cam position sensor.  So yes it is plug and play.

00fxd

"You are not hijacking anything, these are good questions."

Thanks again smoserx1.
So with your encouragement lets keep this conversation goin' then - it's winter and I have time.
My bike is an early 2000 but it is still equipped with the cam pos sensor- 24000 miles. I used to put that mileage on in a couple of years or less. Had a '99 new that I lost in a fire at the H.D. dealership that I worked at - 19000 miles in one year.
I am aware that the cover has an access hole so one can not just just remove the sensor. I am a minimalist so I would likley snip the harness if it is not required if/when I upgrade the ign module.
Lots of miles on your bike. Good to hear. Can I ask how you have addressed your cam chain shoes?
In mine I have upgraded the cam chest bearings and installed cyco/twin power shoes.
Regards, Frank

smoserx1

QuoteLots of miles on your bike. Good to hear. Can I ask how you have addressed your cam chain shoes?
I am using conversion cams with the 2007 setup.
QuoteI would likley snip the harness if it is not required if/when I upgrade the ign module.
That should work fine.

00fxd

Quote from: smoserx1 on January 25, 2021, 06:01:25 AM
QuoteLots of miles on your bike. Good to hear. Can I ask how you have addressed your cam chain shoes?
I am using conversion cams with the 2007 setup.
QuoteI would likley snip the harness if it is not required if/when I upgrade the ign module.
That should work fine.

Thanks again man, Ride safe...

Adam76

Quote from: Buglet on December 22, 2020, 07:49:20 AM
   Just had one come in the crank run out was .0003 that is the best I ever seen. The bearing are getting replaced and putting in Cyco shoes in. Cost for parts are about $ 125.
Are Cyco still selling old style pads / shoes for the spring loaded tensioners?  I did a bit of searching and I couldn't find where to get them, couldn't when see then listed on their website  :doh: I must be blind.

Hossamania

I think this is the brand name they sell under. California Phil set me up with them and the tool.

link
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

838

Quote from: Adam76 on March 02, 2021, 06:08:19 AM
Quote from: Buglet on December 22, 2020, 07:49:20 AM
   Just had one come in the crank run out was .0003 that is the best I ever seen. The bearing are getting replaced and putting in Cyco shoes in. Cost for parts are about $ 125.
Are Cyco still selling old style pads / shoes for the spring loaded tensioners?  I did a bit of searching and I couldn't find where to get them, couldn't when see then listed on their website  :doh: I must be blind.

I bought some from BVHOG a few years ago 👍

Adam76

Quote from: Hossamania on March 02, 2021, 07:09:07 AM
I think this is the brand name they sell under. California Phil set me up with them and the tool.

link

Ahh, thanks. Makes sense now. Twin power shoes are easily found. 👍