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TTS - Difference VE table between motorcycles with / without traction control

Started by tcj, December 22, 2020, 10:50:12 AM

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tcj

Hello everyone,

my first posting - hope I get some information on my question.

First of all, the following brief information - after a long delivery time (1 year) I received my 2020 FLTRK. The bike was equipped with a Stage II kit consisting of SE Ventilator Extreme, TTS-100 camshaft and J&H flap exhaust, which is common in Europe. The final tuning with TTS-Mastertune on the Dyno will be carried out in spring. I am currently trying to get information in the TTS, and I noticed that there are considerable differences in the VE tables between the same model with and without traction control. Can anyone explain to me why there are such differences in the VE tables?  :scratch:
(In Europe, RDRS is standard on touring bikes)

Greetings, Walter

rigidthumper

Rider uses the Twist Grip Sensor to request a change in RPM/speed.

As I understand it (opinions are free and often wrong);

Non-RDRS bikes use the TGS position and Throttle Blade Control table to control the TCA. You get whatever fuel the VE table math in that cell results in, from that TP/RPM. VE tables are tuned so AFR measured = AFR requested, and you get whatever torque is available.

RDRS bikes respond by using settings from the Requested Torque Control table, along with Throttle Blade Trim,  to control the TCA. They can limit or throttle timing/fuel as needed, so there are more inputs. VE tables are still calibrated so AFR request = AFR measured, but the RTC table changes background things, so that effects the VE
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

tcj

Hello rigidthumber,

thanks for your information, but isn't it still the case that the VE tables should be independent of RTC controlled bikes?
As far as I know, a VE table represents the efficiency of the engine as a function of the throttle valve position and engine speed and shows the effective degree of filling as a percentage of the cubic capacity. The VE table should be pretty much the same with the same combination of engine, air filter and exhaust system - or am I mistaken?

The TTS supports RDRS bikes, as you describe there is an additional RTC and TBT table, but I cannot find any information regarding the functionality of the table values, there are no entries/description in the TTS help or other information how to tune a RDRS Bike. I would be grateful for any information and help.

Why I ask here is quickly explained. I would like to create a BasisMap with halfway suitable VE values ​​and then correct the values using VTune recordings. (Same procedure as before with our "older" bikes and the SEPST with SmartTune). I hope this should still be possible with a RDRS bike. Currently I can't find a suitable map for a bike with the components I have installed. That's why I wanted to take over the VE values from a similarly constructed bike and while browsing the maps I noticed the relatively large differences.

A final DynoTuning is planned with the first service and after running in.

regards, Walter

rigidthumper

Remember it's all math, and straight AFR tuning is simply an equation- what size do I need to make this cell (VE) at this specific RPM/MAP load/TP/timing/temp to achieve a specific AFR measured in the exhaust pipe?
VE tables are independant, and if there were no other tables "tugging" with the math, they would be very similar.
Most of them will change after the first couple of  VTune runs, as they get calibrated for the actual parts installed on your bike.

Why can't you use 10000185A.MT9?
Made for your setup.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

tcj

not really  :wink: - 10000185A.MT9 is for a 117cui CVO

the FLTRK is a 114, I have used the 10000157A.MT9 and almost lay down on the first trip (after delivery and drive to the garage). The bike abruptly reduced the power immediately after starting off (in a curve) I almost tipped inward. The effect lost intensity after a short drive but is still there (assume that the adaptive VE correction tables are already having an effect - Bike was fresh mapped by the dealer). A look at the mapping shows in the area I suspected valley-like rather low VE values ​​which I would not have noticed with other maps and would have wanted to use cell values ​​from a non RDRS bike as a starting point. The details of the exhaust system also provide for open (decatted) HeadPipes and SlipOns - in my experience good for power, less good for torque in the lower speed and partial load range. Also prohibited in my country - conditions are similar to those in California and technical controls are the order of the day ...

I can currently only pursue this behavior theoretically after we hand over the license plates over the winter in order to save the high maintenance costs (about 250 $ every month). Austria sends its regards ...

You are of course right that the VE cell depends on many factors and as soon as I can I will also do the VTune rides.
So I'm just looking for good starting parameters.
I would be of the opinion that VE, AFR and SparkPlug timing form the starting point and only then the actual arithmetic coordination for the TractionControl function takes place as soon as the traction control sensors notice a slide and manipulate these values ​​in a certain manner in order to reduce the torque.

regards, Walter

rigidthumper

Did you happen to compare 185A (114") to 157A (117")? (damn near identical, other than the 2% displacement)  If the dealer did a cam install, and
If you're having drivability issues, may not be the tune- Do some Vtune runs, and see if it cleans up. If so, great- if not, check for sumping. Using the values from a different model may not give you any better starting position than you have now.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

tcj

Thanks for the info - I'll compare the maps more closely and try to make VTune runs as soon as possible. Sumping should be ruled out, the 2020 models have new oil pumps  :wink:

little addition
Hi rigidthumper - i compare the maps ... not near identical - the maps are identical ...  :scratch:
Somehow no reliance on the supplied calibrations, as you have already communicated, without VTune runs or dyno no suitable calibration.


HD/Wrench

Not been on here in some time the TQ man table is where adjustments need to be made however as you first do VE then you work to make adjustments to to the tq table with that said requested tq  will move T plate and you may have to go back and make further VE adjustment.
Its a very time consuming process and I now have 4 bikes in the shop tuned by others with another tuner yep makes power but riding i is a JOKE .

There is a process that needs to be followed  .

SO did you adjust trim table yet ?? if so do you have 100% plate through pull if so then reduce the number until it drops just below 100 then go back and re set  trim to 100.. then Map normalization then  once that is done run VE tune then you can work with Tq man table good luck

tcj

Hello HD / Wrench,
First of all - thanks for your info, sorry for my late reply, but I only had the opportunity to drive this week and thus got a VTune recording. My English is unfortunately not the best and I hope to be able to express myself in a reasonably understandable way.
I have a problem driving my motorcycle away from a standstill or accelerating from slow speed. Originally I thought it was related to VE tables that have not been adjusted. These should now fit, but the problem as described above still exists. When starting off, the motorcycle only takes up the throttle with a delay and then accelerates vehemently with the throttle open a little wider. This effect is very noticeable in the speed range between 1200rpm and almost 2000rpm in the lower gears.
As you already wrote, I agree to look for the problem in the TQ tables of the RDRS bike, but unfortunately I do not understand the process you have described. I am using the TTS Mastertune, which table do you refer to as the TQ man table and T plate?
I have the Requested Torque Control table, i can make a traction control recording, but unfortunately I cannot find any information about the handling of the evaluation of a traction control recording.
Where can you see the 100% plate?
I would be grateful if you could post me a short example of the torque adjustment.
Regards, Walter

Perhaps this will also help, although I hold the throttle steadily or slowly accelerate again, the speed drops. Also attached is an excerpt from the VTune recording - hope this also makes my problem apparent.

Hossamania

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but, could it be a vacuum leak?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

Quote from: Hossamania on March 14, 2021, 07:31:16 AM
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but, could it be a vacuum leak?

There has been known issues with the plastic intake. I am also wondering if the mention of the power loss in post #4 could suggest some sumping influence.
KD

tcj

Quote from: kd on March 14, 2021, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on March 14, 2021, 07:31:16 AM
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but, could it be a vacuum leak?

There has been known issues with the plastic intake. I am also wondering if the mention of the power loss in post #4 could suggest some sumping influence.

Thx for the tip  :up:
I'll check whether I find a problem with the manifold.

Gordon61

Quote from: HD/Wrench on February 02, 2021, 03:18:04 PM
SO did you adjust trim table yet ?? if so do you have 100% plate through pull if so then reduce the number until it drops just below 100 then go back and re set  trim to 100..

Hi HD, could you explain that little bit again please?