Transmission help

[thumper 823]

How does one get the little seal out of the main drive gear?
I have a leak in all that area and replacing the main seal, quad seal, etc.
That little seal that goes over the main shaft into the drive gear looks like a 12 pack from here!
What do you guys do to get it out?
Thanx!

[lumberjacklloyd]

I will preface this by saying picks/small screw drivers should be used around sealing surfaces VERY carefully.

If you try to use a pick to get under the seal lip you will end up scratching the main shaft. I typically used a small screw driver to push in near the outer edge of the seal which causes the seal to poke out on the opposing side. Then using a small pick you can get under the seal lip easily to pull it out.

[thumper 823]

 

Evidently, this will have described a sleeve that has walked backwards into the drive sprocket a 1/4 inch or so.
There was no way to get a hold of it, so I welded two nuts onto it and pulled it off.
That took some prep and finesse!
I won that round but...
That little seal is IN THERE!
I truly don't want to disassemble the trap door to get this thing out

[xlfan]

You run the risk of damaging the MDG and/or the mainshaft where the new seal should ride, since the seal is pushed that far in.

My choice would be the choice you truly didn't want to do.

[Hybredhog]

Dental type hooks, and work from the side to get under it. Yes, worse case scenario is to pull tranny door with gear cluster. Might not be a bad thing to check main shaft surface, as when that bushing race walks in, it can take out  one of the needle bearings in the drive gear & boogers up the shaft. Replace race with an S&S unit.

[thumper 823]

There is no getting this out of there.
I quit when i noticed there is about 10 thou end play and the book says zero. (main shaft)
Also where the sleeve was there is a rough area exactly the place the seal would be ..
SOOooooo......
So maybe I need a new main shaft or some sort of a speedy sleeve?
Not sure what to do about the end play.
At least I have defined tomorrow's occupation.

[rigidthumper]

Check the trap door bearings for lateral movement- sounds like it's time for a refresh?

[thumper 823]

Being this will go turbo next turn around and I am already there..
Yes, a new trap door now.
You guys suggest anything else so as not to waste the labor this time ?
Baker door?

[thumper 823]

You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?

[kd]

How about this ?  Click on the trap door frames to enlarge.

[thumper 823]

I have nothing against Baker products,
i am just curious what everyone else has used and if they are happy with it?

[kd]

I have nothing against Baker products,
i am just curious what everyone else has used and if they are happy with it?

The Baker web site doesn't list your trap door separately for some reason.  The one thing worth noting is they advertise their trap door to be used when the OEM stuff wont hold big power.  Then they warranty it for 5 yrs.    

[les]

You should inspect the needle bearings in the main drive gear.  I've seen those disintegrate. When that happens it leaves wear marks on the main shaft.

[thumper 823]

The main drive gear is going to be replaced....or perhaps now adding it all up, it might be cheaper to replace the whole transmission.
Counting bearings, trap door, N1 shift drum...etc
I HATE wasting labor so whilst I am all ready in there..... do it all.
The N1 seems like a great idea!
Someone removed the main drive with a sledge at one time as the first couple of threads are busted off..I am sure it is fine
But my conscience will bother me.
I hate doing stuff trailer park bash.

[kd]

The DD5 does look like a decent option. I have the N1 pattern in my GrudgeBox.  It's great for finding neutral and works well with a Pingel speed shifter. It's tough remembering to click it all down at a stop is neutral and you have to pull it up one to be in first and ready to go. Same for parking lots when you pull in. I still (after the second year) find myself watching for my neutral light so I know where I am.  I had a reverse pattern for years (in the mid 70's to mid 80's) and still have caught myself daydreaming up a down shift because of the learned pattern. I am still waiting for the N1 to become natural but like the way it works.

[Deye76]

"You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?"


https://www.zippersperformance.com/bisagno-trans/

[thumper 823]

The DD6 just splits the owers gears one more time right?
IDK for sure.
I know Baker offers an overdrive ......
but-
The current thinking from big-brained engineers is this-
O.D. is parasitic.
It is better to have a proper final rear ratio with enough gears to get ya up there.
Then the tans is running one to one which is more efficient.
That is something I have never thought of until the recent explanation.

[thumper 823]

"You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?"


https://www.zippersperformance.com/bisagno-trans/

Thanx ,- never heard of them or him-I will have to research it.

I googled him and found nothing-whats the story?
thanx

[kd]

Sorry, I just realized I miss typed and meant DD5.  I am not sure the DD6 would even fit in the 5 spd case. 

FWIW the GrudgeBox 6th gear overdrive is so close to 5th gear you barely notice the drop in RPM.  On a strip that should put you through the trap before needing it.  The gears are well spaced for big power.  You can gear your final drive appropriately and use 6th for highway. You are using chain at this point anyway and rear sprocket swaps are easy.

[thumper 823]

"You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?"


https://www.zippersperformance.com/bisagno-trans/

Thanx
The double row looks impressive -I could find no other information for it, or who the brothers are,  but zippers is a great store and always helpfull.
i ordered it .
thanx for the link.

[Deye76]

Turboprop gets credit for posting the link many times in the past. He and others I know, put out north of 150hp/tq, and use them. They stay together while other things break.

[thumper 823]

Turboprop gets credit for posting the link many times in the past. He and others I know, put out north of 150hp/tq, and use them. They stay together while other things break.

Okay
well thanx turboprop, may your constant speed never lose oil P.!

We all try to help each other, it is a great board.

[thumper 823]

It turns out nothing is ordered as zips and i guess everyone is closed for a few days...
Question -
What is recommended here for a shifter kit?
Baker Smooth shift?
Or
Their N1 shift ststem?
Or?
What have you tried and liked?
thanx

[kd]

I mentioned my experience with the N1 pattern and I like it.  It's just a new pattern that you have to get used to.  The thing I noticed is I found myself pulling to a stop at an intersection and automatically shifting down to where 1st gear "used to be".  When I went to pull away it was in neutral.

For the other years I mentioned, I ran a reverse (short gate) pattern I built by modifying the Harley levers and mountings.  I was hot rodding and you couldn't beat it for banging shifts.  You didn't want to let anyone else ride it though.  They would downshift by accident when under power. I had to adjust to that pattern too.  I rode that pattern for so long I still catch myself wanting to do it. I guess that means I liked it too.

I like them both.   The N1 sure simplifies finding neutral and works well with the Pingel speed shifter.   

[thumper 823]

Thanx!
So it is Neutral at the bottom and all up from there correct?

[kd]

   Like my Yamaha quad now.   

[turboprop]

"You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?"


https://www.zippersperformance.com/bisagno-trans/

Thanx
The double row looks impressive -I could find no other information for it, or who the brothers are,  but zippers is a great store and always helpfull.
i ordered it .
thanx for the link.

The brothers are no longer part of the equation. The only manufacturer of the Bisano Bros door is Zippers.  One that, every other billet door is simply a copy of the oem door but in billet. Some will use the smaller OD bearings and some will use the later, larger OD bearings. Jims offers them with both types of bearings.

The Bisano door might not be for you you as you seem obsessed with freeing up every watt of energy. The double row bearing in the Bisano door comes with increased overhead. The same crowd that obsess over TC lifters could probably generate a few pages of hot air about the pros and cons of the double row bearings.

I have a long list of things I would like to dyno, double row vs single row trap door bearings is on the list. Might get around to it in the next couple of years.

[thumper 823]

 [attach=2,msg1372990]  [attach=1,msg1372990]
Evidently, someone removed the large pulley nut with a chisel at one time!  GEESH!
Look at the busted threads!
The bearings are not where they are supposed to be on the main sprocket shaft,  both have taken a walk.
The seal area is a total loss on the main shaft too , along with all sorts of other carnage.
The main bearing opposite side of the trap door just about fell out....well tap tap tap and a plop.
Both bearings in the trap door have axial linear run -out.
This is Getting to be a rather large list here to the point -
perhaps a new zipper trans or baker might be the cheaper way to go........?

[rigidthumper]

Main bearing is a slip fit, "design feature"

[thumper 823]

There is actual "work" marks of it moving....Not a gooder thing.

[kd]

If you have a machinist's center punch (spring loaded mandrel) you can dimple it evenly around the main bearing surface in the transmission case.  It'll snug it up and if you like a little blue will keep it in place better.  I have had good luck doing that or using a knurled handle to make the raised marks.   I fear you may be right about the whole assembly cost though.  You could collect the parts you need for the present trans and recondition it on the cheap for a spare.

As I said, I don't have any affiliation with them but the Baker is strong and has a 5 year warranty. 

[turboprop]

[attach=2,msg1372990]  [attach=1,msg1372990]
Evidently, someone removed the large pulley nut with a chisel at one time!  GEESH!
Look at the busted threads!
The bearings are not where they are supposed to be on the main sprocket shaft,  both have taken a walk.
The seal area is a total loss on the main shaft too , along with all sorts of other carnage.
The main bearing opposite side of the trap door just about fell out....well tap tap tap and a plop.
Both bearings in the trap door have axial linear run -out.
This is Getting to be a rather large list here to the point -
perhaps a new zipper trans or baker might be the cheaper way to go........?

A much lower cost alternative is to source a gear set from a newer TC 5 speed, preferably one that includes the new style roller drum and its matching "Potty mouth" pawl. You are going to use both your existing gear set and this new gears to build a hybrid gear set. Use the newer top door with the larger bearings and the newer 'close mesh' fourth and with gear sets. From your existing gear set you will keep the 1st through 3rd gear sets. Chuck up both counter shafts in a truing stand and use the one that has the best runout. Do the same with the main shaft, but you will probably have to buy a new one from Andrews. I build about six five speeds a year, have never encountered a five speed mainsheet that was within runout. Once you have all the gears, shafts, forks shifter shaft and shift drum, send them all to Short Block Charlie to be micro polished. When you get them all back, send the door, shafts and gears to Zippers to be back cut (street profile).  Specify on the work order that you want the internal spacer installed between the two bearings inside of the the main shaft 5th gear.  Source new tool steel pins from Mcmaster Carr for the shift drum. Replace both of the springs on the shift pawl and the one on the pillow block with new units from Harley. You will also have to replace the bushing in the trans case with the longer one used with the newer shifter pawl. You could also have the top of the trans case machined for the two dowel pins used to register the plow blocks. Early five speeds had two dowel pins on one side, later cases added two dowel pins for the other side of the shift drum. While you are at it, replace the other three dowel pins in the case (one that registers the starter and inner primary case, and the two that register the trap door). The new pins for the shifter drum can be secured with an appropriate thread locker (Green Loctite works well). Now is also a good time to inspect/load test the threads in the case that secure the trap door and the inner primary. My transmissions (FXRs) all get new solid threaded inserts (Keen Certs) for all of the holes for the trap door and inner primary.

If you really want to eliminate slop from the shifter, rig up something to rotate the shaft of the shifter pawl next to a grinder and take down the splines to an OD no larger than the shaft. Then make a custom under size bushing of the right length and press it into the trans case and hone it's ID to a close fit for the shaft of the shifter pawl.

Nice, but not truly necessary upgrades are:

Close ratio first gear set (Especially on lightweight bikes) (Andrews)
Billet shift forks (Baker).
Billet Stainless shifter truss (Baker).
Stainless 12pt hardware (ARP).
Zippers/Bisano trap door.
Ceramic bearings (World Wide Bearings).
Micro Blue treated ceramic bearings (Micro Blue Racing).
Ream, hone and fit bronze bushings into the pivot hole (rubber mounted cases only).
Lap the surfaces on the trans case that mate with the trap door and inner primary.
Use drain plugs with super magnets.
Have the trans case vapor blasted (Short Block Charlie or others).

Like I said earlier. I build a bunch of these every year. Mostly for my buddies (Fanatics) with big block FXRs. The recipe is proven.

[thumper 823]

Thanx everyone-  and Turbo.
yes, I can make the bearing fit. Somehow someway between knurl and Red Loctite .

The Zippers trans is already back cut   https://www.zippersperformance.com/zip-rack/

Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does.
It is looking like the way to go with all Andrew parts.

[turboprop]

Thanx everyone-  and Turbo.
yes, I can make the bearing fit. Somehow someway between knurl and Red Loctite .

The Zippers trans is already back cut   https://www.zippersperformance.com/zip-rack/

Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does.
It is looking like the way to go with all Andrew parts.

Back cut - Transmission gears lock into the gear next to them by engaging with 'Ears' and 'Dogs'. The ears and dogs on factory gears are pretty much square. Andrews gears are mildly back cut in that they have a slightly ramp cut into them. A transmission setup for racing will have very deep ramps to allow gears to drop in almost instantly. This will not work on a street bike as it will jump out of gear during deceleration. A street back cut is somewhere between square and a deep ramp. Every shop that does this will be slightly different. I think Zippers charges about $175 to back cut a set of customer supplied gears and assemble them onto the customer supplied door and shaft.

A full set of Andrews gears consists of all early style (large teeth) gears. I prefer to use the harley late style fine tooth gears for fourth and fifth gears as they are more quiet and provide more efficiency than the earlier large tooth gears. I like the early gears for 1st through 3rd because they are stronger.

FYI - That Zip Rack does not include ceramic bearings and is not micro polished. I would think these features would be important to your quest to extract every watt of power.

As always, not going to debate. You do what is best for you.

[thumper 823]

Thanx!
Its a START with ALL new parts to be worked with.
As of right now, I have a box of parts that was a transmission and will cost a lot to get back together.
All has not even not been added up yet!,  and I have not even looked at ceramic bngs !
However, I will research all this and see what to do as I am not in my wheelhouse of expertise.
Anything you add to it is appreciated.

[turboprop]

Thanx!
Its a START with ALL new parts to be worked with.
As of right now, I have a box of parts that was a transmission and will cost a lot to get back together.
All has not even not been added up yet!,  and I have not even looked at ceramic bngs !
However, I will research all this and see what to do as I am not in my wheelhouse of expertise.
Anything you add to it is appreciated.

PM me an email address and I will send you a cost sheet with links and part numbers for one of my builds.

So the admins do not get their panties in a wad, I am talking about sending a cost sheet for something I have already built that shows the cost of every nut, bolt and widget, their part numbers and where to source them. I am not offering any services or any hardware. 

[thumper 823]

PM sent -thanx

[Deye76]

"The Zippers trans is already back cut, Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does."
Me either. All I know is the trans I had with back cut gears shifted like butah. Speed shifting was a breeze.

[thumper 823]

Update-
My local independent dealer has made me a super deal on a baker 6 speed OD unit.
A very tempting offer being there is everything wrong with this stock standard one in my hands.
The Baker OD goes against my instincts, but 5th is still one to one I would guess?
your thoughts?

[kd]

Unit or cassette?  Will it have warranty on it or has the clock been ticking while it sat on his shelf?


DD5 Standard   Ratios

1st Gear   2.94 / Optional 3.24
2nd Gear   2.21
3rd Gear   1.60
4th Gear   1.23
5th Gear   1.00

The OD6 comes in a standard, optional or R-Ratio configuration

Standard   Ratios
1st Gear   2.94 / Optional 3.24
2nd Gear   2.21
3rd Gear   1.60
4th Gear   1.23
5th Gear   1.00
6th Gear   .86

[thumper 823]

Brand new, just shove it into my shell.
Thanx for the ratio break dwn.
Looks like OD would be nice out in the mid-west!

[turboprop]

Update-
My local independent dealer has made me a super deal on a baker 6 speed OD unit.
A very tempting offer being there is everything wrong with this stock standard one in my hands.
The Baker OD goes against my instincts, but 5th is still one to one I would guess?
your thoughts?

FYI - Baker offers two very different 6 speed transmissions. There is the Direct Drive 6 and the Over Drive 6. The two designs are very different and they have options for first and second gear ratios. Hopefully the seller has provided you with more details about what they are giving you a great deal on. The Baker website provides a pretty good deep dive.

[kd]

Like Turboprop says. the Baker site gives good information on the details for their transmissions. Study up on the options that may fit and then talk to the seller to see what is being offered.  Then you'll be able to have an informed discussion. 

[Deye76]

If it's the OD6 (not the DD6) you'll have a box that can take some power and last. I had one of the first Baker OD6 in Michigan when he released them. I ran that one in a 110hp bagger, many miles fully loaded and 2 up most of the time, for a total of 80thou + when I sold the bike. The guy that bought it put another 70 thou on it, and finally did it in towing a trailer. The SE OD6 which was made by Jims, was the same design as the Baker, allowed by an agreement between Baker & Jims. I ran one of them in a 130hp/tq TC for 96,000 miles, was still going when I lost track of the guy that bought that bike. Not to start a oil thread, but both were run exclusively with Redline heavy shockproof. OD6's will make some noise, so don't be alarmed if yours does.   
Edit: Yes 5th is still 1 to 1.

[thumper 823]

Thanx!
Yes it is the OD unit

[kd]

Lets go back to how this thread started.  Main brg issue.  Take a look at the Baker double tapered roller main bearing.  If it fits your case it will provide much better support.  It may even come with that trans cassette (if that's what you are looking at). The GrudgeBox builder set did when I bought mine.

[thumper 823]

I ordered a ceramic one for it today.

[turboprop]

Lets go back to how this thread started.  Main brg issue.  Take a look at the Baker double tapered roller main bearing.  If it fits your case it will provide much better support.  It may even come with that trans cassette (if that's what you are looking at). The GrudgeBox builder set did when I bought mine.

None of the Baker 5-speed or 6-speed for five five speed cases come with or can use a tapered main bearing in place of the traditional 5-speed type main bearing.

[kd]

I saw that the fitment didn't include anything before 06 Dyna and 07 touring / Softail 5 speeds.  The OP did say the cassette would slide right in his gear case but indicated he may change that also because of the wear in the bearing bore.  I didn't research whether Baker made it fit their OD6 case. That's why I used the "if" word. 

[thumper 823]

The main bearing bore is in fact a little loose in the world I deal with.
The trap door had bearings that had all sorts of axial ( Linear) end play.  (shot)
Being that is now being replaced with the baker unit,  it is now of no significance.
The main bearing bore will be given a slight pecking (knurl)  then a liberal dose of the red stuff. (when ceramic one  gets here)
  Other than that and with all the help helpful information from you guys, I think this is pretty much history.
I do think with your contributions everyone has learned something.
I am looking fwd to the N1 shift as I have limited up travel in my left ankle.
It should cure the extra-long throw going past Neutral and into second?
Hope so.

[rigidthumper]

Consider Loctite 680 (green) instead of red to fill the gap between bearing shell and case. It's designed to for that (will fill up to 15 thousandths- perfect for retaining slip fit bearings).

[thumper 823]

OK, thanx
BDL belts specify Red to take up the slack for the main shaft so I thought it might be a
a good choice for this too?
I actually had to heat the area up to pull the clutch off the main shaft after using the Red, and it has been
in hard use for a year!
  I will look into the green stuff.
thanx

[rigidthumper]

200 Series Loctite products are designed for fasteners, seen here.


Not to be confused with other green Loctite products, Loctite 680 was designed for filling gaps between bearing shells and their housings.

[thumper 823]

Green on the inside and red on the outside? 
LOL
Thanx for the info.
I will get er done.
Now back to narrow rings pistons and other projects of insanity.
 

[thumper 823]

https://www.microbluebearings.com/6209-ceramic-ball-bearing/

What do you guys think of this?

[Dan89flstc]

https://www.microbluebearings.com/6209-ceramic-ball-bearing/

What do you guys think of this?

What are you trying to accomplish here?

How much power is the engine putting out?

I say find a used gearset and be done with it.

Use loctite 609 to remedy the bearing loose fit.

[thumper 823]

We already have baker OD 6 on the way.

No going back now.
This summer I am shooting for 1.35 - TQ/Hp  at a very low usable RPM
That's the goal , usable power.
We more than surpassed the 1.30 mark on two different dynos last fall.
In due process, the next weakest link raised its uugly head, the left side seals in the transmission transparently did not like the
pulls.
Upon examination, there was way too much wrong with the shafts, forks, bearings etc
to economically fix, -it came out about the same price as a new baker insert.

[rigidthumper]

Anything that reduces parasitic drag is "better". Worth it, price wise, as far as a good value? IDK>  I do believe ceramic wheel bearings drop ET by a few thousandths.

[turboprop]

https://www.microbluebearings.com/6209-ceramic-ball-bearing/

What do you guys think of this?

Back in the days of the AHDRA S&S 124 Challenge Class, a racer named Mike Roberts had just about every moving part on his bike done by Micro Blue Racing. Not just wheel bearings, but every bearing in the entire bike, the primary drive chain/sprockets, final drive chain/sprockets, and all of the moving parts in the engine. Mike dominated that class for several years.

I had Micro Blue do the gear set in my red/white bike,  the wheel bearings, and a few internal engine parts. Its not for everyone.

Funny - I am surprised the crowd that fusses over compensators and lifters has not found this stuff and debated at length (without ever trying it).

[hbkeith]

https://www.microbluebearings.com/6209-ceramic-ball-bearing/

What do you guys think of this?

Back in the days of the AHDRA S&S 124 Challenge Class, a racer named Mike Roberts had just about every moving part on his bike done by Micro Blue Racing. Not just wheel bearings, but every bearing in the entire bike, the primary drive chain/sprockets, final drive chain/sprockets, and all of the moving parts in the engine. Mike dominated that class for several years.

that wasnt cheap i bet , now all the top guys are ceramic , ive got them in my wheels

[thumper 823]

https://www.microbluebearings.com/6209-ceramic-ball-bearing/

What do you guys think of this?

Back in the days of the AHDRA S&S 124 Challenge Class, a racer named Mike Roberts had just about every moving part on his bike done by Micro Blue Racing. Not just wheel bearings, but every bearing in the entire bike, the primary drive chain/sprockets, final drive chain/sprockets, and all of the moving parts in the engine. Mike dominated that class for several years.

I had Micro Blue do the gear set in my red/white bike,  the wheel bearings, and a few internal engine parts. Its not for everyone.

Funny - I am surprised the crowd that fusses over compensators and lifters has not found this stuff and debated at length (without ever trying it).

Most people want to bolt-on gobs of Tq and HP. ( the novice approach)
It is just not that way! (despite the claims of 20 HP air cleaners and 50 more HP exhaust.)
"we" know that.
Moving the "VE" continually up the scale we have to linearly look for ounces instead of pounds for improvements.
In my case, my MC is one of my passions. I want the most out of it with reliability somewhere in the nucleus.
Skipping on bearings is just the low brow, low dollar way of doing things.
The "Walmart way" if you will.
In twenty years I will guess one will have to order plain jane bearings if they don't want the better ceramics.
The industry moves forward, some of us just like to surf? Do we like the cutting edge? Or not?
The devil is in the details -  I ride what looks like a Harley. They never made such a nice machine and too bad for them!
If we can improve the "co" incrementally, a couple of percents here, over there, etc, and with our detail to the large picture we have a better faster bike per cube than last year. ( my goal)
Sure this bearing   is spendy, but it was cheaper than a hangover with much longer happier results
Hopefully, it will complement the new Baker set up.
To each their own.
PS thnax for the heads up on micro blue-that saved me a lot of  reaseach

[thumper 823]

A box of goodies!
[attach=2,msg1374576]  [attach=1,msg1374576] a box of goodies [attach=0,msg1374576]

 

[thumper 823]

Updates  -
I received the ceramic main drive bearing a few days ago from Micro.
I will have to admit I am not too keen on the tolerances of it, so I called Craig there at sales and he assured me it was built fine.
I questioned him severely and he said in 20 years they have never had a failure.
Also, the standard is a ten-ball affair whereas this one is 9 balls.
If I give a new standard bearing a spin my fingers it will go about three seconds. (came with the transmission)
The ceramic will spin at least 5 seconds,  so i will have to guess they are a less parasitic drag.
  Add to that Craig stated this will wear no more in a forever whereas a regular bearing will progressively wear out.
I know nothing most of the time and can prove it the rest of the time..I am not a bearing expert.
I installed it today and the main drive gear.
There is a small amount of axial, and a tiny bit of lateral cockeyed play. (without the main shaft installed)
I can't compare this to another bearing as this is the only one I have ever done.
It may be in fact just fine ?
I will let all know should it go bad..until then consider it all done and good.
 

[thumper 823]

Question for the people with knowledge of Baker exp  OD6.
The online youtube video says to cut the beak off the shifter pawl.
The directions say nothing about it , but it is not a Harley part either, says baker right on it.
I called Baker yesterday about closing time and the person left there was not sure.
  Call me confused.
Any absolute insite here?

[Billy]

This is from the Baker website. I would think if the Baker pawl you have has this beak on it, it would need to be ground off.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1034/8027/files/special-inst-shifter-pawl.pdf?9650806201595179938

[thumper 823]

Thanx!!
But there is an amazing amount of confusion going on. Here and there
I talked to a "Steve" there @ Baker late Fri and perhaps the same Steve yesterday at about 9 AM.
He did not give me a lot of confidence in his answer.
The shift pawl alone is over 200 bucks from Baker and I just don't want to start cutting on it as a guess.
  He said as long as the pawl goes into the hole all is well..plus Baker would not sell me a piece that needs modification.
That the mod is for the Harley shift pawl supposedly. (he thinks)
In the video, Bert is holding the original Harley pawl in his hand and THAT video is OLD!
The one they send in the builder kit is clearly marked "Baker" and it is just like the Harley pawl except different  ...LOL
It is more sturdy, the beak is shaped differently.
All this does leave a lot of uneasiness in the brain.
I think the only way to know for sure is plug the trans in and watch it shift with the cover off.
Thats my plan when I get back to it.

I will guess.....
if they sold this kit in a box its ready to go, it would seem stupid not to have addressed their new-made part off the line .
Just an educated grasp in my reality, I will let al know what is learned.

[Billy]

Is this the ratchet pawl you have? If it is, the pointed beak engages between the pins below the pawl rotating the drum, it is supposed to keep the drum from over rotating which was a common problem for the Evo 5 speed tranny. Install just the ratchet pawl and drum in the case and check for operation before assembling the tranny. Don't grind it off.

https://bakerdrivetrain.com/collections/1984-2006/products/anti-overshift-ratchet-pawl?variant=23522346307

I installed the OD6 kit in my '95 EVO probably 15 years ago and had to buy that shift pawl separately. It has and continues to work flawlessly. Unlike my fuzzy brain.

[thumper 823]

Thanx!
That is exactly it!
I think you have pointedly directly blatantly coherently brought us all to the roundup of truth and fact.
thenx!

[thumper 823]

It looks to me like everyone would save themselves a large heartache by replacing the inner primary bearing with a newer sealed unit and get rid of that spacer.

[thumper 823]

Whilst there............
Might just as well do the belt and both sprockets correct?
I am doing the swing arm bushings too
But this might be of interest to we hotrodders.
The OEM part must weigh ten lbs!
When this arives  this i will post the weight.


[attach=0,msg1380095]

[Hossamania]

Depending on the mileage and condition, yes, changing sprockets and belt make sense. I changed mine when the tranny was being serviced, 60,000 on the belt, 118,000 on the pulleys. They were all due, quite a few imbedded small rocks.
Nice pulley, let us know how it works out.

[thumper 823]

  [attach=0,msg1380544]   [attach=1,msg1380544]

[motorhogman]

Damn..That's a weight loss !

[thumper 823]

Yes!  some serious deletions here.
As I said B4 ,  the belt drive dropped off I  forget if it was 20 or 30 lbs out of the slinging mess.
It gets rid of the compensator too   (which I have never run anyway)
So all and all the little engine that could gets a more EZ job!

[turboprop]

It looks to me like everyone would save themselves a large heartache by replacing the inner primary bearing with a newer sealed unit and get rid of that spacer.

There have been countless discussions on this forum about this. Almost to the level of the TC lifter debates. One aspect not discussed here is lubrication. The factory style bearing is lubed by the fluid in the primary drive case and has been proven to be pretty trouble free from lubrication issues. The sealed bearings come packed in grease. The issue with this, is that these bearings are very inconsistent with the type and amount of grease they come with. I remember someone, maybe it was Max, that obtained an assortment of these bearings being sold under various brand names and opened them up to inspect the grease. As I recall, the amount of grease in these bearings varied widely, even amongst the same reseller branding.

[thumper 823]

Is there a ceramic  bng available?

[jsachs1]

1 note on hard anodized aluminum belt sprockets, that I discovered some years ago. The belt was wearing the anodizing off the sprocket. When that happens the belt wears the sprocket out in no time  I won't mention the manufacturer, but unfortunately I went through quite a few.
John

[thumper 823]

I will not expect unlimited mileage out of it.
In fact, I asked the dude and he thought 15 to 20K.
That is about what I get out of a top-end so it is all OK, do them in stereo?  LOL

[Ohio HD]

Better buy bearing spares from Baker and carry them with you. They aren't a standard bearing size. Baker hones the bearing ID +0.0016" to fit over the Evo or Baker shaft. You'll be in the middle of nowhere and the bearing will go boom, you won't find one.


[attach=0]

[thumper 823]

I will have to check that out,
thanx !

[Ohio HD]

S&S race and the OEM 9135 bearing is the way to go.

[Ohio HD]

1 note on hard anodized aluminum belt sprockets, that I discovered some years ago. The belt was wearing the anodizing off the sprocket. When that happens the belt wears the sprocket out in no time  I won't mention the manufacturer, but unfortunately I went through quite a few.
John

[FSG]

S&S race and the OEM 9135 bearing is the way to go.

   +100 on that 

[thumper 823]

I am confused, I use a belt-drive, therefore no oil in there.
  The bearing I used is a sealed unit much like a clutch pilot bearing.
However a ceramic might be a great idea.

[Ohio HD]

Nothing to be confused about, if you run a dry primary, you're stuck with junky sealed bearings that can't handle the the radial loads very long, and will become worn due to inadequate lubrication. 

There's a reason 99.9999% if the Harley world runs primary chains on road bikes.

[thumper 823]

I will attempt to locate a ceramic bearing if these are a low hour part, albeit I don't see much in write-ups complaining they are doing these again and again?
 

[kd]

Thumper, remember that the ID is not an off the shelf dimension.  The outer ID fits the primary though.   As Ohio has shown, Baker hones the inner to fit the transmission main shaft.  It`s kinda like owning a John Deere or some Cat bearings (and seals).  Made for them and sold by them only.

[thumper 823]

Thanx for the info!
I have to get out there and do some measuring.
If the shaft size was different, I would think they would have had to
include a different sleeve (race) and or bearing in the kit?
I don't remember that.'
Baker did send the larger main shaft bearing which I have replaced with a ceramic.
I will let you all know about my quandary later today.

[Ohio HD]

It's really simple. The bearing that is on the shaft is a Baker honed ID bearing. The bearing that won't go on the shaft is a standard 6205 bearing. Doesn't matter where you find one it won't fit unless the ID is opened up.

6205 bearing ID = 25.00mm
Baker transmission shaft OD = 25.00mm


[attach=0]


[attach=1]

[thumper 823]

OK , when I get out there, and this being true which will suck, means have more custom work to do ...
The devil is in the details .

Always

[thumper 823]

Ok folks I stayed up last night, kind of concerned about this Main shaft dia. problems

I finally got out there and measured the old five-speed and the new six-speed O.D
They are exactly the same. 
25MM
I measured two old inner primary sealed bearings, all measure the same as they should.
In fact, the two I have here slide on both the old main and the new main-shaft just a little looser than I would care for.
So, perhaps the O.D "builders unit" is different than what you guys are used to?

This is of course the old five speed  below

[attach=0,msg1380716]

[thumper 823]

This is the Baker main shaft-exactly the same as the old Harley unit

[attach=0,msg1380717]

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1380718]

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0]

[kd]

Thumper, those don't look like exact same measurements to me.  Maybe I am missing something.  Verniers can be a problem when splitting hairs. Any measuring tool is easily damaged and sometimes effected by temperature.  Do you have a good micrometer?

If you go back to Ohio's post #78 you will get your answer. You can trust him.    When we both bought our GrudgeBox's he did the research and took all of the practical measurements including the differences in the Baker brg.  If you look at your measurements and compare them to his, the  will come on. All the math will work out on cross referencing.   Mind you an OCD type (like some of us) may want to confirm them and no one could blame you.  I do think you'll end up on the same page.

[turboprop]

Good grief.

Not sure what the grudge box has to do with any of this as Thumper has a FIVE SPEED transmission case.

Thumper, the OD of the the main shaft from the OEM, Baker, other after market are all the same for ever gear set that canoe used inside of a five speed case. Those sealed inner bearings regardless of the packaging, Baker, Alls Balls, Drag, V-Twin, etc, etc, will all be compatible with the 5-speed main shaft.

Here is a little experiment. Go to one of the on line bearing supplies and try to purchase a bearing with the same OD, width and ID as those sealed bearings you have. Sealed or not, doesn't make a difference. Try and buy one or two. If you are successful, when you get those bearings in the mail, come back here and tell us how they fit on any or all of the main shafts that you are in possession of for that five speed case. Learning will occur. 

[Ohio HD]

The Grudgebox six speed uses the same size shaft as the five speeds use, 25.00mm (0.9843"), the HD OEM six speed (cruise drive) is 24.80mm (0.9767").

The five speed and the Grudgebox, DD7, etc, all have a 25.00mm shaft (0.9843") and need a motorcycle specific roller bearing if the OEM race / roller bearing (34091-85A and 9135) isn't used for the inner primary support bearing.

An off the shelf 6205 bearing won't slide on the transmission shaft, the bearing ID needs to be honed about 0.040mm (0.0016") larger.

[thumper 823]

I Made one mistake. I had the wrong bearing for the example.  ( it was close )
I found and measured the correct one it and it Fits snugly on the shaft.
A slight push-fit if you fiddle with it and get it square.
PURrrrrect!

I remeasure everything again with a high-dollar vernier.
It all fits and fits correctly no mods needed.
So I will guess Baker changed the M.S. size back to the normal.
thank god!
SOOoooooo i dont know what to tell ya, you can see the dam thin on the shaft
[attach=0]

[jsachs1]

When I used to use the modified 6205 bearings on the main shaft, I always removed the bearing seal that faced the inner primary.
John

[thumper 823]

Being I run a dry primary there is prolly no reason to?

[Ohio HD]

This is the OEM 1984 to 2006 five speed inner primary bearing, race and seal.

https://www2.vtwinmfg.com/inner-primary-cover-bearing-with-sleeve.html


This is a modified 6205 bearing for use in HD inner primaries.  1984 to 2006 five speed applications.

https://www2.vtwinmfg.com/sealed-ball-bearing-for-inner-primary.html


My whole point is that you should keep these bearings around because a standard bearing will not work. Look at the ID they list for the bearing. It's larger than a standard 6205 off the shelf bearing.

I'm out. 

[thumper 823]

I am just crazy happy this shaft OD measures the same as the stock one.
I  lost sleep and had nightmares last night honing out a bearing to fit!   LOL

[FSG]

SOOoooooo i dont know what to tell ya, you can see the dam thin on the shaft

What is the P/N of that bearing and who was the source (Baker, Alls Balls, Drag, V-Twin, etc) ?

[thumper 823]

I have one here from BDl EPB 100
and  a 6205 DU    (maybe from Baker?)
Both fit on the shaft perfectly.
Both have the same Id and OD
This all started out saying  Baker shaft was larger in dia.
In this case, it is not, it is EXACTLY the same as stock five-speed here.
I have now checked every dam thing ten times.
personally Call me done with it.
I think Micro sells these in ceramic, which I will get,  as this BDL unit is already spinning roughly from just last summer's miles and a dyno run.
thanx all-
it was a great exercise in learning some numbers i would not have ever known
 

[Scotty]

I have one here from BDl EPB 100
and  a 6205 DU    (maybe from Baker?)
Both fit on the shaft perfectly.
Both have the same Id and OD
This all started out saying  Baker shaft was larger in dia.
In this case, it is not, it is EXACTLY the same as stock five-speed here.
I have now checked every dam thing ten times.
personally Call me done with it.
I think Micro sells these in ceramic, which I will get,  as this BDL unit is already spinning roughly from just last summer's miles and a dyno run.
thanx all-
it was a great exercise in learning some numbers i would not have ever known

What they are trying to get you to understand is if you buy a standard or ceramic 6205 bearing from anywhere they will not fit onto a standard 5 speed mainshaft without having the ID honed to fit. They ones you have from BDL and Baker? have already been honed to fit. Pretty simple to understand but you seem to be thinking people are talking about the shaft which they are not.

[thumper 823]

Without going on and on and back through all here..
Please believe me I do appreciate the help.
I have now wrestled up 3 ea,  6205 bearings from the drawer of god knows where, as I work on a lot of different stuff here.
All nicely slide on these two Main shafts as they should.
Now perhaps they have been honed..IDK,
but it seems someone said at the onset that the Baker shaft is larger than the standard HD Main S.  ??
In the end here I am going to order a new ceramic 6205.
I will send out a report if it will not fit.
If that is the case I will hone the dam thing out, end of the problem.
This is just not too big a deal to get all stimied over.
It is More EZ to make the ID larger than smaller ......LOL

[Scotty]

Without going on and on and back through all here..
Please believe me I do appreciate the help.
I have now wrestled up 3 ea,  6205 bearings from the drawer of god knows where, as I work on a lot of different stuff here.
All nicely slide on these two Main shafts as they should.
Now perhaps they have been honed..IDK,
but it seems someone said at the onset that the Baker shaft is larger than the standard HD Main S.  ??
In the end here I am going to order a new ceramic 6205.
I will send out a report if it will not fit.
If that is the case I will hone the dam thing out, end of the problem.
This is just not too big a deal to get all stimied over.
It is More EZ to make the ID larger than smaller ......LOL

I think they were telling you so you didn't get caught out thinking there was a problem when a ceramic one didn't fit.
Definitely easy to make it bigger than smaller.

[thumper 823]

Up all night and up all day makes my mind fuzzzzzzzzy.

OK, OK
We cant very EZ get a 25m bearing over a 25M shaft, that is the essence of the whole length breadth and width here.
For most of us, i have found at least 10 vendors that will sell the odd size up to 25.4  by just entering it in google.
I am not happy under most of us rule, soooooo.......
I emailed Craig @ Micro Blue - But I think he HATES his job as he is always full of short answers.
In other words, he does not care to help unless I draw him a picture.
If all he has to do is enter the number he is great!
  I have yet to find a maker of custom ceramic odd size..
So, I guess it comes dwn to ordering a couple of standard-issue 6205  and making them fit.
I have a question into a real machine shop friend to est how hard this might be.
The answer to follow here.

[thumper 823]

 Got the Ceramic inner primary bearing yesterday.
Five minutes with a brake cylinder hone and Viola!
I now have a ceramic bearing that "should" last a long time ...
I am going to spend a minute to see if there is any way to get a
remote grease fitting hooked up so a squirt of grease can be given to it once a year.





[attach=0,msg1381364]

[turboprop]

Got the Ceramic inner primary bearing yesterday.
Five minutes with a brake cylinder hone and Viola!
I now have a ceramic bearing that "should" last a long time ...
I am going to spend a minute to see if there is any way to get a
remote grease fitting hooked up so a squirt of grease can be given to it once a year.





[attach=0,msg1381364]

Hmm, the center hole of that bearing looks too large to go on the shaft. Is that just an optical illusion?

[thumper 823]

It is now an exact fit, it was too small by a 1/2 a hair