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Transmission help

Started by thumper 823, December 23, 2020, 07:57:56 AM

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kd

 :up:  Like my Yamaha quad now.   :hyst:
KD

turboprop

Quote from: thumper 823 on December 29, 2020, 02:33:53 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on December 28, 2020, 07:29:33 AM
"You guys have a recommendation for a trap door from who?"


https://www.zippersperformance.com/bisagno-trans/

Thanx
The double row looks impressive -I could find no other information for it, or who the brothers are,  but zippers is a great store and always helpfull.
i ordered it .
thanx for the link.

The brothers are no longer part of the equation. The only manufacturer of the Bisano Bros door is Zippers.  One that, every other billet door is simply a copy of the oem door but in billet. Some will use the smaller OD bearings and some will use the later, larger OD bearings. Jims offers them with both types of bearings.

The Bisano door might not be for you you as you seem obsessed with freeing up every watt of energy. The double row bearing in the Bisano door comes with increased overhead. The same crowd that obsess over TC lifters could probably generate a few pages of hot air about the pros and cons of the double row bearings.

I have a long list of things I would like to dyno, double row vs single row trap door bearings is on the list. Might get around to it in the next couple of years.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

 [attach=2,msg1372990]  [attach=1,msg1372990]
Evidently, someone removed the large pulley nut with a chisel at one time!  GEESH!
Look at the busted threads!
The bearings are not where they are supposed to be on the main sprocket shaft,  both have taken a walk.
The seal area is a total loss on the main shaft too , along with all sorts of other carnage.
The main bearing opposite side of the trap door just about fell out....well tap tap tap and a plop.
Both bearings in the trap door have axial linear run -out.
This is Getting to be a rather large list here to the point -
perhaps a new zipper trans or baker might be the cheaper way to go........?
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

rigidthumper

Main bearing is a slip fit, "design feature" ;)
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

thumper 823

There is actual "work" marks of it moving....Not a gooder thing.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

kd

December 30, 2020, 01:49:22 PM #30 Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:54:22 PM by kd
If you have a machinist's center punch (spring loaded mandrel) you can dimple it evenly around the main bearing surface in the transmission case.  It'll snug it up and if you like a little blue will keep it in place better.  I have had good luck doing that or using a knurled handle to make the raised marks.   I fear you may be right about the whole assembly cost though.  You could collect the parts you need for the present trans and recondition it on the cheap for a spare.

As I said, I don't have any affiliation with them but the Baker is strong and has a 5 year warranty.  :wink:
KD

turboprop

Quote from: thumper 823 on December 30, 2020, 01:26:38 PM
[attach=2,msg1372990]  [attach=1,msg1372990]
Evidently, someone removed the large pulley nut with a chisel at one time!  GEESH!
Look at the busted threads!
The bearings are not where they are supposed to be on the main sprocket shaft,  both have taken a walk.
The seal area is a total loss on the main shaft too , along with all sorts of other carnage.
The main bearing opposite side of the trap door just about fell out....well tap tap tap and a plop.
Both bearings in the trap door have axial linear run -out.
This is Getting to be a rather large list here to the point -
perhaps a new zipper trans or baker might be the cheaper way to go........?


A much lower cost alternative is to source a gear set from a newer TC 5 speed, preferably one that includes the new style roller drum and its matching "Potty mouth" pawl. You are going to use both your existing gear set and this new gears to build a hybrid gear set. Use the newer top door with the larger bearings and the newer 'close mesh' fourth and with gear sets. From your existing gear set you will keep the 1st through 3rd gear sets. Chuck up both counter shafts in a truing stand and use the one that has the best runout. Do the same with the main shaft, but you will probably have to buy a new one from Andrews. I build about six five speeds a year, have never encountered a five speed mainsheet that was within runout. Once you have all the gears, shafts, forks shifter shaft and shift drum, send them all to Short Block Charlie to be micro polished. When you get them all back, send the door, shafts and gears to Zippers to be back cut (street profile).  Specify on the work order that you want the internal spacer installed between the two bearings inside of the the main shaft 5th gear.  Source new tool steel pins from Mcmaster Carr for the shift drum. Replace both of the springs on the shift pawl and the one on the pillow block with new units from Harley. You will also have to replace the bushing in the trans case with the longer one used with the newer shifter pawl. You could also have the top of the trans case machined for the two dowel pins used to register the plow blocks. Early five speeds had two dowel pins on one side, later cases added two dowel pins for the other side of the shift drum. While you are at it, replace the other three dowel pins in the case (one that registers the starter and inner primary case, and the two that register the trap door). The new pins for the shifter drum can be secured with an appropriate thread locker (Green Loctite works well). Now is also a good time to inspect/load test the threads in the case that secure the trap door and the inner primary. My transmissions (FXRs) all get new solid threaded inserts (Keen Certs) for all of the holes for the trap door and inner primary.

If you really want to eliminate slop from the shifter, rig up something to rotate the shaft of the shifter pawl next to a grinder and take down the splines to an OD no larger than the shaft. Then make a custom under size bushing of the right length and press it into the trans case and hone it's ID to a close fit for the shaft of the shifter pawl.

Nice, but not truly necessary upgrades are:

Close ratio first gear set (Especially on lightweight bikes) (Andrews)
Billet shift forks (Baker).
Billet Stainless shifter truss (Baker).
Stainless 12pt hardware (ARP).
Zippers/Bisano trap door.
Ceramic bearings (World Wide Bearings).
Micro Blue treated ceramic bearings (Micro Blue Racing).
Ream, hone and fit bronze bushings into the pivot hole (rubber mounted cases only).
Lap the surfaces on the trans case that mate with the trap door and inner primary.
Use drain plugs with super magnets.
Have the trans case vapor blasted (Short Block Charlie or others).

Like I said earlier. I build a bunch of these every year. Mostly for my buddies (Fanatics) with big block FXRs. The recipe is proven.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

Thanx everyone-  and Turbo.
yes, I can make the bearing fit. Somehow someway between knurl and Red Loctite .

The Zippers trans is already back cut   https://www.zippersperformance.com/zip-rack/

Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does.
It is looking like the way to go with all Andrew parts.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

turboprop

Quote from: thumper 823 on December 30, 2020, 04:51:00 PM
Thanx everyone-  and Turbo.
yes, I can make the bearing fit. Somehow someway between knurl and Red Loctite .

The Zippers trans is already back cut   https://www.zippersperformance.com/zip-rack/

Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does.
It is looking like the way to go with all Andrew parts.

Back cut - Transmission gears lock into the gear next to them by engaging with 'Ears' and 'Dogs'. The ears and dogs on factory gears are pretty much square. Andrews gears are mildly back cut in that they have a slightly ramp cut into them. A transmission setup for racing will have very deep ramps to allow gears to drop in almost instantly. This will not work on a street bike as it will jump out of gear during deceleration. A street back cut is somewhere between square and a deep ramp. Every shop that does this will be slightly different. I think Zippers charges about $175 to back cut a set of customer supplied gears and assemble them onto the customer supplied door and shaft.

A full set of Andrews gears consists of all early style (large teeth) gears. I prefer to use the harley late style fine tooth gears for fourth and fifth gears as they are more quiet and provide more efficiency than the earlier large tooth gears. I like the early gears for 1st through 3rd because they are stronger.

FYI - That Zip Rack does not include ceramic bearings and is not micro polished. I would think these features would be important to your quest to extract every watt of power.

As always, not going to debate. You do what is best for you.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

Thanx!
Its a START with ALL new parts to be worked with.
As of right now, I have a box of parts that was a transmission and will cost a lot to get back together.
All has not even not been added up yet!,  and I have not even looked at ceramic bngs !
However, I will research all this and see what to do as I am not in my wheelhouse of expertise.
Anything you add to it is appreciated.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

turboprop

Quote from: thumper 823 on December 30, 2020, 05:22:31 PM
Thanx!
Its a START with ALL new parts to be worked with.
As of right now, I have a box of parts that was a transmission and will cost a lot to get back together.
All has not even not been added up yet!,  and I have not even looked at ceramic bngs !
However, I will research all this and see what to do as I am not in my wheelhouse of expertise.
Anything you add to it is appreciated.

PM me an email address and I will send you a cost sheet with links and part numbers for one of my builds.

So the admins do not get their panties in a wad, I am talking about sending a cost sheet for something I have already built that shows the cost of every nut, bolt and widget, their part numbers and where to source them. I am not offering any services or any hardware. 
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Deye76

"The Zippers trans is already back cut, Albeit I am not all sure what that means or does."
Me either. All I know is the trans I had with back cut gears shifted like butah. Speed shifting was a breeze.
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

thumper 823

Update-
My local independent dealer has made me a super deal on a baker 6 speed OD unit.
A very tempting offer being there is everything wrong with this stock standard one in my hands.
The Baker OD goes against my instincts, but 5th is still one to one I would guess?
your thoughts?
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

kd

January 05, 2021, 05:22:49 AM #39 Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 05:38:30 AM by kd
Unit or cassette?  Will it have warranty on it or has the clock been ticking while it sat on his shelf?


DD5 Standard   Ratios

1st Gear   2.94 / Optional 3.24
2nd Gear   2.21
3rd Gear   1.60
4th Gear   1.23
5th Gear   1.00

The OD6 comes in a standard, optional or R-Ratio configuration

Standard   Ratios
1st Gear   2.94 / Optional 3.24
2nd Gear   2.21
3rd Gear   1.60
4th Gear   1.23
5th Gear   1.00
6th Gear   .86
KD

thumper 823

Brand new, just shove it into my shell.
Thanx for the ratio break dwn.
Looks like OD would be nice out in the mid-west!
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

turboprop

Quote from: thumper 823 on January 05, 2021, 02:55:55 AM
Update-
My local independent dealer has made me a super deal on a baker 6 speed OD unit.
A very tempting offer being there is everything wrong with this stock standard one in my hands.
The Baker OD goes against my instincts, but 5th is still one to one I would guess?
your thoughts?

FYI - Baker offers two very different 6 speed transmissions. There is the Direct Drive 6 and the Over Drive 6. The two designs are very different and they have options for first and second gear ratios. Hopefully the seller has provided you with more details about what they are giving you a great deal on. The Baker website provides a pretty good deep dive.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

kd

Like Turboprop says. the Baker site gives good information on the details for their transmissions. Study up on the options that may fit and then talk to the seller to see what is being offered.  Then you'll be able to have an informed discussion. 
KD

Deye76

If it's the OD6 (not the DD6) you'll have a box that can take some power and last. I had one of the first Baker OD6 in Michigan when he released them. I ran that one in a 110hp bagger, many miles fully loaded and 2 up most of the time, for a total of 80thou + when I sold the bike. The guy that bought it put another 70 thou on it, and finally did it in towing a trailer. The SE OD6 which was made by Jims, was the same design as the Baker, allowed by an agreement between Baker & Jims. I ran one of them in a 130hp/tq TC for 96,000 miles, was still going when I lost track of the guy that bought that bike. Not to start a oil thread, but both were run exclusively with Redline heavy shockproof. OD6's will make some noise, so don't be alarmed if yours does.   
Edit: Yes 5th is still 1 to 1.
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

thumper 823

Thanx!
Yes it is the OD unit
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

kd

Lets go back to how this thread started.  Main brg issue.  Take a look at the Baker double tapered roller main bearing.  If it fits your case it will provide much better support.  It may even come with that trans cassette (if that's what you are looking at). The GrudgeBox builder set did when I bought mine.
KD

thumper 823

I ordered a ceramic one for it today.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

turboprop

Quote from: kd on January 05, 2021, 03:24:19 PM
Lets go back to how this thread started.  Main brg issue.  Take a look at the Baker double tapered roller main bearing.  If it fits your case it will provide much better support.  It may even come with that trans cassette (if that's what you are looking at). The GrudgeBox builder set did when I bought mine.

None of the Baker 5-speed or 6-speed for five five speed cases come with or can use a tapered main bearing in place of the traditional 5-speed type main bearing.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

kd

I saw that the fitment didn't include anything before 06 Dyna and 07 touring / Softail 5 speeds.  The OP did say the cassette would slide right in his gear case but indicated he may change that also because of the wear in the bearing bore.  I didn't research whether Baker made it fit their OD6 case. That's why I used the "if" word.  :smiled:
KD

thumper 823

The main bearing bore is in fact a little loose in the world I deal with.
The trap door had bearings that had all sorts of axial ( Linear) end play.  (shot)
Being that is now being replaced with the baker unit,  it is now of no significance.
The main bearing bore will be given a slight pecking (knurl)  then a liberal dose of the red stuff. (when ceramic one  gets here)
  Other than that and with all the help helpful information from you guys, I think this is pretty much history.
I do think with your contributions everyone has learned something.
I am looking fwd to the N1 shift as I have limited up travel in my left ankle.
It should cure the extra-long throw going past Neutral and into second?
Hope so.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH