TTS cam selector or just vtune?

[anthonyflhx]

Hey everyone, I just dropped a rs468 cam into my 18 roadglide and need to retune with TTS. In past with 3 other bikes Ive gotten pretty good results with running 5-8 vtunes and gathering enough data that the bike seemed to run well. Probably not as well as with a dyno tune, but good for seat of the pants.

Now with this new cam, Ive read differing feedback on using the cam selector option. Most are saying to just choose the basemap that closely matches your components and cam selection, and run the vtune process 3- 5 times. A few others stated to be very cautious using the cam selector if you don't know what your doing. Best used by a dyno professional.
My base map was GOI800-03-A0, as it matched my setup exactly. 2018 touring, 107ci, AC, fullsac performance mufflers with stock decat head pipe and rs 468 cam.

I ran 4-5 vtunes and thought I had gathered a good amount of data, but the bike feels like something is slightly off, mostly at idle and just taking off from first gear. So now Im wondering if I need to use the cam selector option before vtunes.

Can anyone give feedback on this and if the cam selector is needed? I thought the base map would account for the cam being its in the specs of the map.

[Ohio HD]

As I understand it, you need to have the cam selector function set so the ECM knows when to inject fuel, and when to stop. You can only set an estimates intake valve opening and closing with the estimator. The only way to get the cam selector 100% right is on a dyno. See the cam test feature as stated in the programming guide.

[anthonyflhx]

I read that in the programming guide the bike needs to be on a dyno to set the cam. So can you still get a decent tune with upgraded cam by vtunes only? Going to be a month til I can get appt for a dyno tune.

[Ohio HD]

In my opinion, no. It's all a guess without monitoring the AFR and power output,

[lonewolf]

IVO is logged at idle with bike warm, IVC is done on the dyno.

[anthonyflhx]

So basically you're sol if you add a cam and don't have a dyno tune?

[Ohio HD]

You can v-tune the bike and see if you can get it running better. You may also have to make manual changes to the MAP settings in some cases. But you get what you get without monitoring the entire system so that comprehensive adjustments can be made in the MAP.

[98fxstc]

Anyone can do the ivo using TTS
more important than ivc
and to do IVC on a dyno, you need someone who knows how to use a dyno and someone proficient with TTS
I , along with many others I guess, have not done verified ivc, but have a good tune and a happy engine , with good idle and good low rpm manners because the ivo is correct

[anthonyflhx]

Anyone can do the ivo using TTS
more important than ivc
and to do IVC on a dyno, you need someone who knows how to use a dyno and someone proficient with TTS
I , along with many others I guess, have not done verified ivc, but have a good tune and a happy engine , with good idle and good low rpm manners because the ivo is correct

I was under impression that basic cam settings were already incorporated into base map since it specified the exact same cam and setup that I have. So tomorrow I plan on getting the ivo settings and plugging into the cam selector. Then, if Im understanding correctly, I can start dataruns and vtune processing.
Good idle and low rpm manners sounds exactly like what Im missing in my tune. Thanks for heads up.

[98fxstc]

I have considerable experience DIY vtuning with twin cams, none with M8s
TTS is a comprehensive tuning program
It will do as much as you want to do, to tune your bike, or as little as you want to do
It sounds as though most of the advice you are getting is from people who don't understand how cam tuning works or can't be bothered to learn
The cam settings in your calibration may coincide with the optimum values for your engine or they may not
It is a simple matter to check
Use the cam estimator to set the open and close settings for the cam tune
Run cam tune and use the instructions to confirm your settings
If you search hdforums, you will find some posts from TheWiz who uses a 'throttle blip' test to check throttle response
A change of values for the open and close numbers may or may not improve throttle response
It is possible to get a sweet running bike using vtune, without putting your bike on a dyno
A dynotune from a pro is the icing on the cake

[anthonyflhx]

I read through some of Wizards post in that thread you mentioned and set the ivc to 3 (as he states that is the most common setting for most cams), and did a cam recording for ivo which showed my break point at 4. I then used the estimator to enter these numbers in and transfer to base map.

I did 3 vtune runs this morning. 5 times each gear steady roll on throttle to 4500 rpms then backing off and letting it roll back down to as low an idle before it was lugging, usually 1500 ish rpms. In between sets I would try to WOT to 4500 climbing through gears to break up the slow roll and try to hit more areas of tps.

Attached is 3rd VE tables showing what i think is a pretty good collection of white cells for non dyno runs (am I right or wrong?). One problem I still have is every now and then the throttle flubs right around 2k rpms like its getting too much fuel or not enough. I have to twist it hard a few times to get it back to responsive. This doesnt happen all the time just when I least expect it. If I was doing slow speed maneuvers I would be very worried about the throttle lag.

I was planning on doing 2 more vtune runs but am wondering if that is a waste of time until the throttle lag is addressed.
Any suggestions on what my next step should be? Or pointers to address the throttle lag? What about the ve tables in pic...is that decent looking or severely lacking? Thanks again for all your help.

[Ohio HD]

Throttle lag has been in my experience mostly VE tables need addressed in that area, timing in the low RPM / high kPa area, AFR setting, too much accel enrichment.
One of our professional tuners may chime in with more things that can effect the lag. But the above is what I've found to cause lag. Sometimes all of them.

[anthonyflhx]

Thanks Ohio HD, one of the lag times was in 5th gear eight at or just under 2k rpms. I had just climbed up to 4500 rpms and let her roll back down to 2k or a hair under, then went to roll back up when the lag hit. I don't know if that changes anything or not, but might be important note.

[kd]

That may be tooo low to expect anything but thaat kind of response.  What happens if you do that at 2500 - 2600 rpm?

[anthonyflhx]

2500 and up is good throttle response. Worst response is when in first gear just taking off. If i roll throttle easy like stop and go traffic it flubs or didn't respond smoothly. If i rev or blip it a couple times then accelerate slowly its a smoother response.

[harpwrench]

Have you made egr adjustments? Have you noticed the issue getting worse after flashing new maps?

[anthonyflhx]

Have not made egr adjustments as i think that is a bit out of my scope. I'm familiar with vtunes and still trying to get the learning curve down.

[Ohio HD]

Might as well get this question out of the way. Did you check compression to see that the two cylinders are where they should be with that cam, after unhooking the ACR's? Cam being a tooth off isn't impossible.

[harpwrench]

Has the problem gotten worse from where you started?

Compare the egr settings front and rear to the original cal, if the numbers are lower in the 2000-2500 range set them to original

[anthonyflhx]

Might as well get this question out of the way. Did you check compression to see that the two cylinders are where they should be with that cam, after unhooking the ACR's? Cam being a tooth off isn't impossible.

Did not check compression or unhook acr. Wasnt sure i even had an acr to be honest. In all the isntructions and videos I watched on this cam install, not one mentioned anything about acr. I was pretty certain to make sure the dots were aligned when torquing everything down and even adjusted pushrods using the dots facing each other for rear cylinder and at 12 and 6 position for front cylinder.

How would I check compression? I think autozone has compression test kit they lend out. Would that work on m8 motor?

[anthonyflhx]

Has the problem gotten worse from where you started?

Compare the egr settings front and rear to the original cal, if the numbers are lower in the 2000-2500 range set them to original

EGR numbers are higher then the original base map.

[98fxstc]

I checked your base map
Original cam settings are 4 and 2
The open and close intake values for RS468 are 8.5 and 16.5
When you put those values in the cam estimator ( 9BTDC and 17ABDC ) the values you get are 6 and 2

When The Wiz was talking about the most common values for ivo and ivc, M8 was not even on the radar
Go back and put in 6 and 2 and do a cam tune
The cam tune is the foundation for your tuning. If you change it you will have to start again because your VEs will change.
Get it right before you go any further

Then run a data log and have a look at a throttle blip pic.

[anthonyflhx]

I checked your base map
Original cam settings are 4 and 2
The open and close intake values for RS468 are 8.5 and 16.5
When you put those values in the cam estimator ( 9BTDC and 17ABDC ) the values you get are 6 and 2

When The Wiz was talking about the most common values for ivo and ivc, M8 was not even on the radar
Go back and put in 6 and 2 and do a cam tune
The cam tune is the foundation for your tuning. If you change it you will have to start again because your VEs will change.
Get it right before you go any further

Then run a data log and have a look at a throttle blip pic.

Excellent! Thank you very much for the heads up.

[anthonyflhx]

I checked your base map
Original cam settings are 4 and 2
The open and close intake values for RS468 are 8.5 and 16.5
When you put those values in the cam estimator ( 9BTDC and 17ABDC ) the values you get are 6 and 2

When The Wiz was talking about the most common values for ivo and ivc, M8 was not even on the radar
Go back and put in 6 and 2 and do a cam tune
The cam tune is the foundation for your tuning. If you change it you will have to start again because your VEs will change.
Get it right before you go any further

Then run a data log and have a look at a throttle blip pic.

98fxstc, i entered the 6 and 2 for the cam estimator settings. Then ran the cam tune data analyzer and it shows the first break at the 4. See attached pic. So should i change the ivo from 6 to 4 now?

[98fxstc]

Yes, that looks like 4
so you had 4 and 3 before, now you are going with 4 and 2

theory is that this comes into play for idle and low rpms
no point spraying air/fuel mix on back of a closed intake valve and have to make sure it is there when the valve is open
doesnt matter much after 3000rpms or so because the valve is opening and closing pretty quick
sounds like it may have been your problem but it doesn't look like the numbers will change that much
try it and see 
check for response with the throttle blip

[anthonyflhx]

ok, so today I was able to squeeze in 8 vtune runs. I think the best looking ve tables were number 3 and 8. Now in number 8 ve tables, some cells are purple that were white in number 3. Weird, but maybe because those cells didnt get enough data on 8th run?
So my question is:
Can I manually change those cells in mastertune? In theory, combining the 3 and 8 I would have a mostly white cell ve table for range i mostly ride in. Am i going in right direction or is that a train wreck?

In all 8 runs I only got one egr adjustment screen from vtune. I chose apply but not sure i should have. Ive attached that screen cap for your review.

Otherwise I think bike sounds and rides better. Still had a couple throttle flubs in 2k and 2500k rpm area, but once I get the map figured out, I can do a flight recorder to see exactly where and why the flubs are coming in.

[98fxstc]

Nothing wrong with using EGR adjustment
very useful tool that should solve any decel popping
It is strange that the VEs haven't settled more from run 3 to run 8
You can edit them but the engine will ask for what it wants
Have you checked to make sure there are no occasional intake or exhaust leaks which may skew results
If you are using Flight Recorder for your vtuning you should be able to look at the flubs in the data logs
When it happens, do a double throttle blip to mark the occurrence in the log
Pull the clutch in and give it a couple of blips so you know where to look
You should be having a look at a throttle blip as per The Wiz to verify response before you go further.
It could improve by changing cam settings which are not set in concrete
Then your VEs will have to be done again, but it does sound as though you have something else going on