Axtell Piston Set-up or S&S bigger engine?

[Winston Wolf]

I'm making one of my FXR's a little hotrod.  I'm considering doing a set of the special Axtell Sales 80" pistons where you need to machine out the combustion chamber, port the heads, and run something in the range of a Wood W9 cam. This is a gold/black bike, so I like the gold toned stainless Supertrapp on it...

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

I have not personally run either the Axtell setup, or a bigger inch S&S Evo.  So I'm looking for opinions.

[choseneasy]

I'd do an S&S complete motor myself.... some year evo's had weak a questionable crankcase that can css as use grief once HP goes up.
  The 124" big gun is a good motor but I think their 111" is a really solid motor if touring/dependability is a concern.
  JMO-

[thumper 823]

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[RedFXR2]

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

For the same money there's a strong argument for a whole new engine.  And as someone already pointed out, the S&S 111" has proven to be a very popular engine upgrade for FXR's.  Before doing all that surgery to your Evo, I'd look hard at putting that money into a 111".

[Deye76]

Crate motors no matter the brand are a crap shoot. A bench built motor starting with a stronger engine case than OE, will be better, if the builder is up to the task. S&S engines from those overpriced choppers can be found at good prices and make a excellent starting point.

[thumper 823]

YEA///but there is something  to be said when the little Evil Evo 80  beats a larger 110.

[Hossamania]

YEA///but there is something  to be said when the little Evil Evo 80  beats a larger 110.

So true!

[Ohio HD]

Crate motors no matter the brand are a crap shoot. A bench built motor starting with a stronger engine case than OE, will be better, if the builder is up to the task. S&S engines from those overpriced choppers can be found at good prices and make a excellent starting point.

I agree with bench built using stronger than stock components. Sometimes ends up more than a crate, but you know what you have, and have what you want.

[RedFXR2]

YEA///but there is something  to be said when the little Evil Evo 80  beats a larger 110.

I'm sure it can be done, but on the other hand I've known people who started with a stock 80" Evo and went so far down the high-perf mod road that they ended up with a 80" engine that ran like the proverbial scalded dog.....when it ran.  But it was also very finicky and hard to live with (broke down a lot and needed constant fiddling with.  Even they came to agree that they should have just gotten a bigger inch motor to begin with and had the same power, but also with reliability.

I have a friend who dropped a S&S 111 into his FXR and he tours with it.  Great power but also has long miles reliability.  Hard to beat.

[RTMike]

S&S 111 or 124 take your pick

[kd]

I am very pro build it when you can especially if you have the skill and tools to get the satisfaction of doing it yourself.  There may even be some savings that way.  Not so much if you are paying a known good builder (like we have here) to do it but the quality should be there.   BUT, there isn't anyone in my recollection that hasn't sung praise for the S&S 111" crate in all ways.  Several members have them and I recall seeing HogMike's decker with one. He may see this thread and add to it.  IIRC they are not as tall and that provides better access to the top end in the event you need to go in.  AFAIK there is still a 2 year warranty on that engine too.  The original engine can sit on the bench as a display or be sold off to help pay for the crate engine. There's a few ways to go and it really depends on your personal skill level, access to a quality builder and / or what you expect to get out of that hard earned cash.  You decide and we'll help you spend it. 

[Winston Wolf]

The only thing I would hire out would be the cylinder honing and head work. Everything else would be done by me, so there is no other outside cost to build.

I already have a Mikuni and Daytona Twin Tech ignition.

I do not think I would want to sell the original engine, as it's an 85th anniversary numbered bike, so there may be some collector value down the road. Which means I would t be able to offset any costs.

[kd]

Well in that case lubing and packing the original heads and barrels away will preserve that assembly.  A pair of evo heads suitable for shall we say "adjustment" to the build goals should not be a huge spend.  Have you decided what those goals are.  How do you ride? I know you said little hot rod, but do you expect anything out of the life span and do you travel at all?

[thumper 823]

Our Hopped up 80 goes to  Sturgis most every year.   (and many other places quite reliably)
Two up and heavy.
I will insert here the only trouble is the weak link called a non-tapered pinion shaft and a tiny fingernail of a half-moon sticking out driving the cam gear............ It is now welded in 3 little spots .
Double plug and twinn tech it,  use really cold plugs.
We have 83 CC chambers,  Axtell Nodular iron jugs wedge top pistons.
.026 Squish.
A lot of extra do-dads, a lot of hours in-ring prep with 10 lb drag.
Ported heads and yada yada .
Is it worth it?
Yes!,  to me it is !
The bigger engines could not catch us in a headwind across Nebraska I think it was, and i did not even know they were racing us.
  We pulled onto the station for gas /coffee/ pee break and twenty minutes later we were surrounded by those we passed asking how big this engine is.
I explained 83 inches total and they would not believe it.
The Big bad twinks went dwn the road and we passed them all again!  LOL
They were not even two up!
Satisfaction does not come in gobs of cubic inches but in the art of using what one has.

[thumper 823]

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[Deye76]

YEA///but there is something  to be said when the little Evil Evo 80  beats a larger 110.

I too enjoy, using light tackle for big fish. But stock cases are a weak link in building a powerful 80". So why not go bigger when you go with better cases? There's a lot to be said for a powerful motor, not on the ragged edge.

[capn]

I agree with Deye. Havin plenty of cubic inches is like driving chevy big block.Just riding at legal speeds is fun.

[kd]

Not a race situation but "The only thing faster than cubic inches id cubic dollars" (Bill (Grumpy) Jenkins)  I've had hot small blocks and big blocks.  The sweet spot in a big block is "everywhere". 

[Winston Wolf]

This is just a bar hopper, weekend hero.  It will never tour.  Obviously I wouldn't want it to be "unreliable", but the likelihood of it seeing more than 100 miles from home base is not good.  The bike has around 35k miles, so I'll probably just tear it down and see what's what.  Never thought about dual plugging it, but i would put in compression releases if I did the hot 80.  I'm a bit nervous about putting a huge torque motor in with the tapered main shaft. 

[thumper 823]

With the correct cam, I don't think you need comp release, at least i don't.
With 225  Cold rank comp

[thumper 823]

The devil is in the details to get beyond 1.25 per cube .
This is Swains Ceramic chambers and exhaust port (Evil Evo heads)

[Naear]

What clutch will you be going with either upgrade?
I've got a 88 fxrs I bit the bigger cubic bullet went with the S&S v111 supertrapp exhaust rivera primo pro clutch on tapered shaft....
5 years Mar of 2016 now still puts a huge smile on my face riding I dont miss my ole 80" zippers headwork n cam its a door stop in my garage.
Heres my  for the v111
Good luck with your choice

[thumper 823]

Not sure who that is directed to..But mine has been up and running with a BDL Belt and their lock up ball clutch.

[turboprop]

I'm making one of my FXR's a little hotrod.  I'm considering doing a set of the special Axtell Sales 80" pistons where you need to machine out the combustion chamber, port the heads, and run something in the range of a Wood W9 cam. This is a gold/black bike, so I like the gold toned stainless Supertrapp on it...

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

I have not personally run either the Axtell setup, or a bigger inch S&S Evo.  So I'm looking for opinions.

Have never heard of either of these S&S engines. Do you have a link to them?

[Winston Wolf]

I'm making one of my FXR's a little hotrod.  I'm considering doing a set of the special Axtell Sales 80" pistons where you need to machine out the combustion chamber, port the heads, and run something in the range of a Wood W9 cam. This is a gold/black bike, so I like the gold toned stainless Supertrapp on it...

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

I have not personally run either the Axtell setup, or a bigger inch S&S Evo.  So I'm looking for opinions.

Have never heard of either of these S&S engines. Do you have a link to them?

96, 111, 124, whatever.  I didn't look up the exact sizes, it doesn't really matter.  I don't have any bikes with S&S engines, so I don't stay up on what they have, nor do I care.  The point/question was asking if it makes more sense to do an 80" or just buy a whole new (used) engine.  Money is not an object, but I'm not into pissing it away either.  If I can build my 80" for 2000$, or get a complete engine for about the same cost, what is the better way to go?

[hbkeith]

Crate motors no matter the brand are a crap shoot. A bench built motor starting with a stronger engine case than OE, will be better, if the builder is up to the task. S&S engines from those overpriced choppers can be found at good prices and make a excellent starting point.

Got a buddy that bought a 111 , had problem after problem , he has stock motor in now , crap shoot for sure

[Ohio HD]

Calgary56 had problems with his S&S 111. Anytime something is mass produced there's a larger margin for errors.

[turboprop]

I'm making one of my FXR's a little hotrod.  I'm considering doing a set of the special Axtell Sales 80" pistons where you need to machine out the combustion chamber, port the heads, and run something in the range of a Wood W9 cam. This is a gold/black bike, so I like the gold toned stainless Supertrapp on it...

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

I have not personally run either the Axtell setup, or a bigger inch S&S Evo.  So I'm looking for opinions.

Have never heard of either of these S&S engines. Do you have a link to them?

96, 111, 124, whatever.  I didn't look up the exact sizes, it doesn't really matter.  I don't have any bikes with S&S engines, so I don't stay up on what they have, nor do I care.  The point/question was asking if it makes more sense to do an 80" or just buy a whole new (used) engine.  Money is not an object, but I'm not into pissing it away either.  If I can build my 80" for 2000$, or get a complete engine for about the same cost, what is the better way to go?

I personally know several guys in the FXR community that have had nightmares with their S&S evo 111 engines. Back in the day, 80" evo engines with the Axtell angle top pistons were the hot ticket. Very easy to hit 90hp without going into the stupid zone. The recipe has been proven countless times. Ron at Axtell will point you in the right direction for the cam and headwork. Your budget of $2k is going to be pushing it.

Don't fear the tapered shaft. Lots of barstool experts regurgitating stuff they heard. That tapered shaft should not be a concern unless this hot rod, baby 80 or crate ?? of yours is pushing 140.

Are you able to do the tear down and assembly yourself?

[thumper 823]

I would go with the Axtell version every time any time.
Install a high torq cam (Dm 530 works GREAT!) and I am sure others will work also.

As I have said B4 the weak link I the fingernail silver that locks it all to the pinion.
Adress that if more than then a stock cam is used.
Also, take the time to set the correct pinion/cam gear fitment.
Usually, to always if you buy a cam with a gear it is too small but allows it to be used with a lot of backlashe.
This will ruin your valve timing at some point. (bent exhaust)  BTDT

[Buglet]

    Sold quite a few of the 111's, the only problem I've being having with them is around 30k they blow the front head gasket and some would use oil but not enough for S&S's book. 

[Winston Wolf]

I'm going to do the Axtell treatment.  I tore everything down, and I'll take it to the machine shop tomorrow.  Supposedly the bike had 32,000 miles, but it has obviously been torn into before; the flywheels have the run-out written on them, and the cases were sealed with silicone. So, I guess I will replace the bearings and start fresh.  I have a set of 5 over pistons that Axtell said are really old and some of the first ones they did. The plan will be to set it close to 11:1 and run a W9 cam.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[kd]

New wheels from the factory have the runout numbers written on them too.    The silicon isn't such a great idea.  It has a determined life span in oil and changing temps.  It can be fatal if a piece gets away and into the system oil galleries.

[Ohio HD]

New wheels from the factory have the runout numbers written on them too.    The silicon isn't such a great idea.  It has a determined life span in oil and changing temps.  It can be fatal if a piece gets away and into the system oil galleries.

Yep, that stuff is death to oil passages. Threebond 1184 is the ticket.

[Winston Wolf]

The crank bearings were starting to show some marking, and the crank nuts were not as tight as they should have been, which mucked up the crank pin. Had to have a new crank pin installed.  Trued up perfect, but then at reassembly found the left side race sleeve was moving side to side.  Cases are at Darkhorse now getting machined like a guy would for a Twin Cam Timken conversion.  Probably should have just went with the bigger motor at this point.

[fatbobber]

I also used the Axtell angle top pistons in e few 80 inch evo engines , with headquarters HQ 21 cam ,ported heads and made 100 HP at the real wheel time and time again .
I have the 15 degree angle top pistons ,107 cu inch in my twin cam and this setup is also very fast .
That setup from Axtell works great , those pistons where worth every dollar .
I don't think Axtell is stil in business because there website is closed .

[SP33DY]

The Axtell Angle dome, ported heads, and HQ-0023 was my go-to recipe for customers wanting a fast Evo. I think Ron Dickey retired and sold the business.

[thumper 823]

Unfortunately, Ron is no longer in business, He had a stroke and we all miss him.
 I know a guy in Ohio that  selling hos pistons and cylinders.
I dont know if he is re-chambering the heads.

[IronButt70]

I'm making one of my FXR's a little hotrod.  I'm considering doing a set of the special Axtell Sales 80" pistons where you need to machine out the combustion chamber, port the heads, and run something in the range of a Wood W9 cam. This is a gold/black bike, so I like the gold toned stainless Supertrapp on it...

For the money I will spend to do the stuff above, I'm getting the in the range of a complete engine.  I was considering going to a 96", 103" or even 120" S&S Super Stock. (depending on what I can find)

I have not personally run either the Axtell setup, or a bigger inch S&S Evo.  So I'm looking for opinions.

Have never heard of either of these S&S engines. Do you have a link to them?

96, 111, 124, whatever.  I didn't look up the exact sizes, it doesn't really matter.  I don't have any bikes with S&S engines, so I don't stay up on what they have, nor do I care.  The point/question was asking if it makes more sense to do an 80" or just buy a whole new (used) engine.  Money is not an object, but I'm not into pissing it away either.  If I can build my 80" for 2000$, or get a complete engine for about the same cost, what is the better way to go?

Doesn't the old saying go "there is no replacement for displacement?"

[Hossamania]

The crank bearings were starting to show some marking, and the crank nuts were not as tight as they should have been, which mucked up the crank pin. Had to have a new crank pin installed.  Trued up perfect, but then at reassembly found the left side race sleeve was moving side to side.  Cases are at Darkhorse now getting machined like a guy would for a Twin Cam Timken conversion.  Probably should have just went with the bigger motor at this point.

Quite a while ago, but how did this turn out?