Swing -Arm, tar snakes & refix again

[thumper 823]

The five years go past fast!
Last summer I noticed a bit of a rear wriggle on tar snakes and certain road conditions..again.
I did add a 3rd member stabilizer a couple of years ago and I will have to say that was money well spent!
I recommend you buy or make one as you will feel the difference!
Back to the bushings-
These rubber-style bushings do isolate however they deteriorate rather quickly.
To the point  -What is everyone using now?
I will say upfront - real metal bearings of any sort are not on the list as I do like the road separated a bit from the ride.
No doubt they will work longer and better..but no.
"Two-up"  and near 500 miles a day is hard enough (for us) so I will stay with rubber-type nylon stuff.
So what is everyone using, liking, or even disliking?
thanx  !

[rigidthumper]

Have you seen this thread?

[thumper 823]

What am I missing here?
That is an industrial catalog correct?
I guess I could make my own parts, but I am already knee-deep in a thousand other projects .
However, I will note that for future reference for some helicopter stuff.
thanx

[cheech]

What am I missing here?

Your missing the fact that Turboprop has discovered within that catalog are the front mounts used on the FXR and baggers.
And they are available in varying degrees of hardness.

[kd]

I think What rigidthumper and cheech are pointing out is that a worn or damaged front mount can allow the front OF THE engine to move laterally if weak (or loose), therefore causing the swingarm stability to also be effected.  It's a quick, easy and inexpensive fix. If that is the case it's probably worth doing. 

That front mount is subjected to lots of oil contamination from spills during oil filter removal at servicing so it is fairly common to have it go south.  You may be able to see visual signs of movement in the mount or find the fasteners will be loose if you put a wrench on them.  The later model TC has 2 front lower mounts mounted horizontally (1 each side) and a top stabilizer on the front cylinder head which seems to provide more stability.

[thumper 823]

*It is not the front mount  , as I stated -the swing arm is gone in this .  (again)
The TBO is not very long and that is why most bikes handle like crap.
With a new set up I get zero for road squeegees .'
This is an EZ check-
Jack the rear tire off the floor, unhook the shocks and attempt to move the swing arm laterally holding the frame.
I will absolutely guarantee most rubber-mounted platform will flunk this test unless the bushings are pretty new inside the swing thing

*  I just replaced this fall as it was getting rather spongy.

[Hossamania]

I find that when the tar snakes start to have more effect, my tires are usually the culprit. Half worn and the snakes make for more wiggle than when the tires are new.

[thumper 823]

New tires will mask the problem of worn bushings.
I have slop IN MY SWING ARM BUSHINGS.
I do suggest you do check yours?  (as above)

What is everyone else using??
The last couple of times I used genuine HD stuff...There must be something better?  (besides bearings)

[Deye76]

I installed these http://www.sta-bo.com/  18 months ago ago on my FXR, so far OK. I have 3 bikes so not a lot of miles on them, maybe 6000, so not a lot of help, sorry. I will say this bike spends the majority of it's time in the curves, so I give them a decent workout. Installation is easy.

[Hossamania]

Hers one thread on some options:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93817.0.html

This kit kept coming up in searches here:
https://customcycleengineering.net/swing-arm-retrofit-kit/

Here's some light reading on the subject.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,31533.0.html

[thumper 823]

Long read of no consequence -
The wondering wiggly bike.....
Which will take us dwn the leary weary road on the subject of wheel alignments.
Not to boast but seriously...
  I have been working on helicopters/airplanes most of my life, which is not too hard compared to the angles found in making a boat.
Shutter planks, longitudinal angles, and minutes.....
Now to the point-  I see and have seen SO many people on Utube and elsewhere
promoting all the wrong ways of doing simple wheel alignments!
Just turd world wrong!
Now don't confuse simple with quick.
To get it as exact as possible will take a couple of hours once you start the jig work .
A simple check is a level across your seat support tubes and a verticle on your rear disk.
If one says sq and the other does not, You are out of sorts!
Now to the point- no wheel alignment is any good without good suspension parts.
I have to do my alignment and i know the swing arm is lose .
All alignments start with the rear wheels be it car, truck, UFO or even an MC
Thanx for the links to other vendors...
I am still not sure what to try...

 

[fbn ent]

  Thumper823, now you've done it! I need to check mine .... again.    They should be good but I do have a bunch of miles on the new stuff. BTW, I just used the stock replacements.

[Hossamania]

Thumper, just curious as to how many miles were on your tires when you started noticing that the tar snakes were causing problems?
Also, I have found that those strips are much slipperier when fresh or in hot weather, as opposed to later in the season as they become worn in.
I'm not saying your swingarm bushings aren't worn, but that tires play as big role as anything in the handling on those strips.
Now if it starts wobbling in corners without the strips, then yes, the suspension becomes a bigger player in that scenario, but the tires also come under scrutiny.

[kd]

 This is one of many options named in the Drunken Camel thread if you actually did read it all.  I know, it's long. I remember Max commenting on their offering somewhere. There are many many more threads on this subject here with lots of suggestions for you if you care to search some key words or phrases.  BTW, Did you check your front mount or are you satisfied that a set of rear mounts should only last one year? 

As you know, there can be many contributing factors that lead to the control issue as you describe it.  The addition of a stabilizer can mask a lot.  Tire wear, wheel bearings, spokes (if any), front end suspension and alignment are others.  All I can say is you are the only one I can recall ever saying he had to service the rear fork as many times as it appears you have so something must be overworking those fork rubbers or causing it with other influences.  Like you said about tires, maybe changing out the bushings so often and the additional stabilizer is masking another problem.  Make sense? 

Do you have a factory spec for side play?   

[thumper 823]

Ok, one more time just for beers ..if you drop the shock bolts and can move the arm laterally
you have worn bushings.
Simple.
Period.
Go check yours.  (everyone and anyone)
  Now other things may help mask it, and others exaggerate it.
I am quite used to this bike and its nuances.
I have had this Road king for over ten years and it comes with the congenital defect of weak swing arm bushings.
Now, this platform even right now is more stable on the road than my Goldwing F6B which is a ONE-arm affair. So I guess I will forgive it for being a little twitchy?
With good bushings and a 3rd member, i have not ever been on a bike so stable in winds, grated bridges, or whatever. I do know it.
it will cruise along very confidently right now 85-90 MPH all day long, two up and very heavy.
I just don't like letting things go.
As I stated if you compare your frame to the rear disk you will have an instant answer.
I wish you all would go check yours.....I bet you will be disappointed.
keep it 3,4,5 folks

[thumper 823]

Thumper823, now you've done it! I need to check mine .... again.    They should be good but I do have a bunch of miles on the new stuff. BTW, I just used the stock replacements.

Sorry....LOL

But most of us should...I have at times where several bikes showed up gave them a quick sq , frame to the rear wheel
So far unless brand new none have had both bubbles in the window.   (Well laser and percentage readouts)
  The swingarm will always settle to the left side .

[Hossamania]

I'm going to try one more time, how many miles were on your tires when you noticed the issue start with the tar strips?

[thumper 823]

About 2k  on Avon cobras matched set.
It is a very minor twitch.  I checked the swing arm has a minor amount of slop.
The swingarm is about 5 years at the most and shot, everyone's is .
When I first got this bike it had over a 1/2 inch lateral travel!
  I have gotten used to the plan.

[Hossamania]

Got ya, thanks.

[thumper 823]

This round I am going to try these.
The independent shop dwn the street says they work great and are sort of like the new Harley upgrade.


http://www.bikerrogue.com/Articles/Tech_Articles/Rubbermounted_Swingarm_Upgrade/swingarmupgrade.htm

[fbn ent]

From what see there this is the CCE update for the pre-2001 swingarms.  I have put these on a couple bikes for guys. . I guess you didn't specify what year you are running unless I missed it. The older swing arm also has a tendency to crack. This allows you to put in the smaller swingarm bolt and not have to bore the transmission.

[thumper 823]

I Have what is left of a regurgitated   1994  RK
The swing-arm problem comes from the adapters that allow shocks to be mounted aft of the rear axle.
Lowering kits as they call them.
This adaptation can cause a crack right above the axle because of the moment and lever moving aft.   (mechanical advantage )
  I do have the newer swing arm here and was going to use it...but as I understand it, this  creates  a pile of trouble like caliper mounting, different size rear axle, change wheel to ballbearings etc etc

  This stock setup has worked for almost 30 years and near a 100K.
I am going to go out on a limb and gamble it will continue to do so.

SOOOoooo
How did you like the this setup that you installed?
   

[fbn ent]

The ones I did were easy and the guys were real happy with them. Both swingarms were cracked at the axle and had to be either welded or replaced. BTW, they did not have or had they ever had lowering kits installed.  IIRC we had the brake caliper bored for the 1" axle to match the swingarm and installed the 1" bearings and spacer in the wheel. Those 1" bearings are a good bearing. Oh...you probably won't be a fan of the snail adjuster on the axle.

[thumper 823]

Thanx!
Are the one-inch bearing timkins ?

[fbn ent]

No, they are the stock sealed ball bearings. IIRC they were in a kit from the Dealer along with the spacer. You need the spacers for the axle too. I bought that stuff on ebay for a decent price.

[Hossamania]

 Yup, they do crack and break. The weld isn't pretty (he only had some wrought iron laying around) but it is strong, lasted 15 years so far. A lowering kit has been on since day one.

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[thumper 823]

OUCH  ^^^

When I bought this thing, it had stock  HD air suck shocks and the lowering tabs.
We had even ridden it to Sturgis that way once.
Luck of the draw I guess?
We are big people with and we load heavy cause I bring 30 lbs of tools with me, plus her stuff and my shave kit...
It never broke.
But-
A couple of years ago I installed *Progressives schocks and bolted them where they should have been to get the geometry correct.
With the load over the axle, I will guess this is safer than it used to be?

* I can't recommend these shocks as expensive they are, as  they suck slightly less them standard HD junk

[Hossamania]

Were I to get a new swingarm, or another bike with that style, I would have some gussets welded at those points as preventative care.
I thought maybe some spokes had broken when that swingarm broke clean through top and bottom. Imagine my shock when I saw the culprit. It was a bit wobbly in the corners!

[thumper 823]

Because I am a weird lightweight fanatic- If I do replace the Swing thing,
it would be with an Aluminum or carbon fiber unit.
Unsprung weight is enemy number one .
I sometimes sit up late at night and dream of CF wheels........about 4K  $$$$$$$$.........
Where is Barbra Eden when I need her?

[Hossamania]

Ah yes, unsprung weight: just money! CF wheels would be nice!
How about sprung weight? I'm robbing horsepower just by sitting on my bike. Way too much horsepower....   

[thumper 823]

You and i both! 
I need to get back to my 18-year-old figure!   LOL

[capn]

I put that CCE kit in my 97 ultra.It is an improvement over stock but I would not call it a game changer.

[thumper 823]

Do you have a 3rd link of any sort too?

[capn]

Yes I also have a Tru Track stabilizer link.I also went with a later 05 swing arm with the I inch axle and bearings front and rear.Plus the twin cam wagon wheels.

[thumper 823]

That should navigate through the turns pretty good?  AND BE STEADY AS A ROCK!

[fbn ent]

I also installed Progressive's Mono Tubes. A bit harsher but I like them.

[thumper 823]

I have Progressive rear shocks, I would say never again.
They work better than the HD air crap but for 600 bills, I think they were, not worth it.

[fbn ent]

Yes, but the mono shocks are the front. My'02 is on rails....

[thumper 823]

What a PIA!
Got the swing arm off, waiting for parts.
Getting that shaft out is a PIA!
This round I am going to drill, tap and install grease zerk so I can squirt a dab of silicone grease in there once upon a time in a while.
I am going to replace the belt, and both pullies whilst there.
I don't want to waste the labor.
Surprisingly, the bushings only had a little wear.
But worn it is .
It was last done about seven years ago.

[Deye76]

Use anti-seize on the shaft.

[thumper 823]

I surely did last time. In fact some still remains in there.
A grease fitting I think is the answer.

[thumper 823]

Installing the CCE  bearing kit-
I will have to say this is more EZ than pushing in the Harley rubber crap.
  With a proper hammer, the old Harley rubber junk can be driven out.
Last time I used all the finite love and finance I could muster and using the press.
I highly recommend in this instance you skip it,  and go direct to caveman!!.
There is no way to get the swing arm square and hold it there for long on the press bed.
If I was doping a few of these a month I would make a fixture ....once every five years ...no
  OK  If you can drive these out then pushing them in is a POC!  as they are a very light press.
In fact, I started to use my ball joint clamp as you can see in the pic.
I ended up doing what the directions said with the Loctite But tapped them dwn in with a small hammer and their special tool provided for the press.






[attach=0,msg1380364]   
 

[Hossamania]

Let us know if you feel an improvement In performance.
Glad the install went well.

[thumper 823]

This will have to be better!
There is less than 0.001 in free play between the through bolt and the bearings.
Plus these are not Gumby rubber crap to give, wiggle, and wobble.
I understand that the newer Harley [attach=0]  went to a design sort of like this?

[thumper 823]

Being there is no provision for grease,
I will now drill and tap a few zerks in the swing arm so this bearing gets a little help.
Also will install in the transmission case so the through-bolt can be lubed once in whilst.
The last time I used lots of anti-seize,  but it still came out HARD!
I think the stuff gets really stiff after awhile?




[attach=0,msg1380367]

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1380443]   [attach=1,msg1380443]


Drilled/tapped and inserted the grease fittings.
I measured up to the new bearing then backed off so the hole was about a 1/8th away.
The shoulder plug that goes in last is of a smaller dia, so it is not too critical.
On this side of the shoulder, i will JB weld it to the swing arm so the grease will not migrate toward the donut
All and all a 10 min job.
The grease should make it live longer and it seems unreal to do it with no provision for lubrication.
Right or wrong I am going to make grease seals on the inside with 3M 5200 to keep H20 out and grease in.

[thumper 823]

New Through bolt zerk . [attach=0]

[kd]

Thumper, is that a crack where the paint has chipped of on the left side of the pic showing both grease fittings?

[thumper 823]

Nope...but thanks for looking.
AT least i don't think so.......
I did look it all over and will do so again.

The last thing this gets B4 going back together is paint, so I will be scrubbing it hard!

[thumper 823]

For those that care- Where the front of this engine is pointing the rear tire is sure to follow!
  I don't have the donuts installed yet nor the outside nuts on the through bolt.
I will tell you this there is not even ANY axial or lateral
"play" between the swingarm and the transmission.
NONE.
Absolutely none, as it should be and should have been done from HD !

[thumper 823]

The genuine HD sprocket weighs in over five lbs!



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