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Run out

Started by johnchev89, March 28, 2021, 02:51:03 PM

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johnchev89

Crankshaft at 7 thousandths runout. Currently have a fair amount of oil carryover in the air cleaner, enough to blow out onto the exhaust.
Oil pump and cam chest look ok.
Crank was at 4 1/2 thousandths when I did the top end build around 10,000 miles ago.
   Tempted to install new gaskets and breathers and run it for now or am I just putting off the inevitable?
2012 cvo softail.  Pushing 115 to the wheel.

Scotty

What does the oil pump look like with that much runout?
But you know what you need to do so a bandaid is not going to work.

johnchev89

Oil pump has typical wear, some light grooves.
I would hate to run it and have a catastrophic failure. More money in the long run if that happens.

Tacocaster

Wish I had measured my buddies run out for you now to provide some reference.

I had his (2005) cam chest open and found significant wear marks on the back side of the cam plate at the oil pump. He had been complaining of vibration since the onset of purchase (used). We collectively warned him of pending doom but he decided to take the risk......luckily he wasn't too far from home when the last cough occurred. That was late last fall.
We just last week finished installing his brand new long block.
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

Ohio HD

March 28, 2021, 05:00:56 PM #4 Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 05:08:44 PM by Ohio HD
It's a crap shoot as to what to do. In one respect the OEM runout spec. in 2012 is a maximum of 0.0100" runout at the shaft while in the cases. You're at 0.0045". If it stays where it is you can no doubt run a lot of miles yet. If it moves, who knows what will happen.

If you run it hard I'd definitely take care of it now. If you just cruise around, you may be ok. Was it dyno tuned? The crank may have shifted at that time.

Added: Disclaimer. I agree also that the spec they give of 0.0100" is way more than it should be. I think we all would want to see no more than 0.0030". 

johnchev89

March 28, 2021, 05:50:11 PM #5 Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 05:57:06 PM by johnchev89
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 28, 2021, 05:00:56 PM
It's a crap shoot as to what to do. In one respect the OEM runout spec. in 2012 is a maximum of 0.0100" runout at the shaft while in the cases. You're at 0.0045". If it stays where it is you can no doubt run a lot of miles yet. If it moves, who knows what will happen.

If you run it hard I'd definitely take care of it now. If you just cruise around, you may be ok. Was it dyno tuned? The crank may have shifted at that time.

Added: Disclaimer. I agree also that the spec they give of 0.0100" is way more than it should be. I think we all would want to see no more than 0.0030".
Crank was at .0045 when I did the top end 10,000 miles ago,  is at .0070 now.
  I do run it hard and the occasional rolling burn out :SM:

Ohio HD

Ohh, I missed the 0.0070". Yeah, it should be addressed before you have bigger problems. You could send yours to Darkhorse and have better rods put on while rebuilding it. Or go S&S. An advantage to the Darkhorse route is they'll balance it to your new piston and ring weights.

Scotty

Quote from: Ohio HD on March 28, 2021, 06:08:40 PM
Ohh, I missed the 0.0070". Yeah, it should be addressed before you have bigger problems. You could send yours to Darkhorse and have better rods put on while rebuilding it. Or go S&S. An advantage to the Darkhorse route is they'll balance it to your new piston and ring weights.

I thought you missed the .007 part of his message...............to far gone now and needs to be fixed.

johnchev89

Which is the better deal,  s&s or have mine reworked along with timken upgrade?

Ohio HD

I don't thing either crank is a bad way to go. I've used DH on the last few motors. They do great work and their customer support is great as well. Plus you get the crank customized to your needs.

johnchev89


838

Is the s&s 4 5/8" crank an option for the 110" B case?

johnchev89

S&S lists a 4 5/8 crank for it.  I think I'll keep it at most a 117.
What else would cause excess oil carry over, as in oil sitting in the throttlebody.
Breathers are sealing, per a suck and blow test with a vacuum pump.

838

Quote from: johnchev89 on March 29, 2021, 02:34:16 PM
S&S lists a 4 5/8 crank for it.  I think I'll keep it at most a 117.
What else would cause excess oil carry over, as in oil sitting in the throttlebody.
Breathers are sealing, per a suck and blow test with a vacuum pump.

Blow by? Do you have it vented to an external system? If not you could have oil coming in through the back plate of your air cleaner.

johnchev89

Am running the stock Ventilator air cleaner.
Got back from a 200 mile ride saturday and had oil blown onto the rear exhaust pipe and oil seeping from the bottom of the air cleaner.
No smoke and still has plenty of power.  Have not checked compression yet.  Plugs were dry. 
Maybe mild sumping during the trip??
Was down maybe a half quart on oil

Ohio HD

Most TC motors stop dribbling oil when they're a 1/2 quart low. Run it awhile and see if it stops.

Hossamania

I would also think about running the breather tubes externally from the air cleaner if not done already. I'm assuming the stock Ventilator air cleaner runs the breathers back into the throttle body.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

johnchev89

Quote from: Ohio HD on March 29, 2021, 03:35:21 PM
Most TC motors stop dribbling oil when they're a 1/2 quart low. Run it awhile and see if it stops.
I always run 1/2 quart low , middle of the dipstick
Have always had a little carry over but what it's doing now is new.
Currently getting some pricing together for the crank work and case reassembly.
Once I start the top end tear down i should know more about the cylinder wear and what the pistons look like.

Ohio HD

Quote from: johnchev89 on March 29, 2021, 03:45:43 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 29, 2021, 03:35:21 PM
Most TC motors stop dribbling oil when they're a 1/2 quart low. Run it awhile and see if it stops.
I always run 1/2 quart low , middle of the dipstick
Have always had a little carry over but what it's doing now is new.
Currently getting some pricing together for the crank work and case reassembly.
Once I start the top end tear down i should know more about the cylinder wear and what the pistons look like.

:up: 

Maybe do a leak down test before pulling it down?

johnchev89

Quote from: Hossamania on March 29, 2021, 03:44:01 PM
I would also think about running the breather tubes externally from the air cleaner if not done already. I'm assuming the stock Ventilator air cleaner runs the breathers back into the throttle body.
It does and I have been looking into doing that..

Hossamania

Quote from: johnchev89 on March 29, 2021, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on March 29, 2021, 03:44:01 PM
I would also think about running the breather tubes externally from the air cleaner if not done already. I'm assuming the stock Ventilator air cleaner runs the breathers back into the throttle body.
It does and I have been looking into doing that..

Some reading to get you started.

link
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

johnchev89

Going to have the crank sent to Darkhorse.have it trued plugged , welded and balanced.  With the upgraded rods.  Replace balancer guides
Then have the case reassembled with two lefty bearings.
      Also have the jugs bored .060 over using KB 661c pistons.

johnchev89


front cylinder
Out of round?
Both cylinders are worn like this. 

[attach=0,msg1382155]


kd

April 01, 2021, 06:12:02 PM #23 Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 06:35:05 PM by kd
From the pic it looks like very poor hand drill hone work.  Too coarse (rough) and the cross hatch angle looks too shallow and uneven.  The ghosting is somewhat normal but not usually so pronounced.  It will appear in line with the stud holes and galleries where the cooling effect of the fins is broken by the hollow bore holes.  I would guess it was overheated.  The only real way to tell if they are out of round is to put them torque plates and measure them properly.  I like to map them every linear inch at 90 and 45 degree positions around the circumference.  Put your measurements on paper and it will give you a true picture of how the measure up and if they can be saved.

Added later

If the angle on the cross hatch is too shallow the cylinder wall can hold the oil and the rings can't clean the excess off and that will cause oil consumption. Vice versa if it's too steep.  The angle in your pic looks to me to be too shallow and the deep scoring valleys between the peaks from what appears to be a course stone will work together to retain oil as I described.
KD

Pirsch Fire Wagon

Quote from: johnchev89 on April 01, 2021, 05:13:49 PM

front cylinder
Out of round?
Both cylinders are worn like this. 

[attach=0,msg1382155]

Check with Dial Bore Gauge and Wear Limits from Manual.
Tom