carby

[david lee]

took the shovel for a ride today in traffic conditions and and after around 3miles it started misfiring as if it was running out of fuel. got it home took the plugs out and they are black which tells me its running rich. am i correct .its a s&s-b. the main jet is 072 and intermediate is  0295. any thoughts would be helpful. thanks

[JW113]

Correct, black = rich.

When is the last time you looked at the plugs? When is the last time you rode the bike? When is the last time you took it out on the highway and nailed it WFO up to the redline (i.e an Italian tune up)?

-JW

[david lee]

ridden 4-5 mths ago no problems do you know the stock size int jet the jets were changed at 1 stage for the same reason its trial and error thanks

[hbkeith]

if it ran well before , i would not change jets , points move ?

[kd]

Float level? It can effect all ranges.

[rigidthumper]

Enricher plunger left slightly up will blacken plugs rapidly.

[guppymech]

Super B Jetting Chart.  My engine with a Super E likes the leaner end of the range.

[JW113]

This sounds like the school of thought of "I changed something so I need bigger jets".

-JW

[Burnout]

Idle mix screw on a S&S carb is very sensitive, 1/8 turn is a significant change.

You MUST tune the idle mix on a fully warmed up motor.

If you set the idle mix on a cold motor, it will blacken plugs.

The idle circuit supplies a significant amount of the light throttle fuel.

[thumpr54]

"Enricher plunger left slightly up will blacken plugs rapidly."

my vote....esp if it runs better next time out....one time hiccup....

[david lee]

Float level? It can effect all ranges.

float level good. this carby originally came off a non stock bike motor

[Ohio HD]

I assume a stock 74"? I would suggest looking at 0.068 or 0.070 main jet. Open exhaust you might need the 0.070. Also a Super 'B' is too large for a stock 74" if that's what you'e running.

[bump]

I have a S&S B with 68 main and 29.5 mid. If you forget to close enrichener it will foul plug. Turns Turns plugs black black pretty quick. Been funning it this way for 35 years.

[Lowrider!]

I'm running .033 intermediate and .072 main on a 1978 74 c.i. FXS with KB 9.5-1 pistons, Crane 300H cam, staggered duals, mid to high 40's mpg.

[david lee]

this carb came off a non stock 1340 and when i bolted it on was running rich. my hd mech changed the jets , guess work and said try this the plugs have always been black since but not misfiring until the latest ride. the enricher is off and float level good. my mate cleaned the plugs and said go for another ride and see what happens  but im sure nothing will change

[bump]

Pull the enrichener out of carb and check the orings. I had to replace the oring at bottom of enrichener after about 25 years of carb on bike. Also check that throttle plate and shaft are not worn.

[david lee]

Pull the enrichener out of carb and check the orings. I had to replace the oring at bottom of enrichener after about 25 years of carb on bike. Also check that throttle plate and shaft are not worn.

will do

[Hossamania]

Also sounds like you're ready for an E carb...

[76shuvlinoff]

Also sounds like you're ready for an E carb...

  Stockish bike or even mildly modified?  I'd opt for a CV40 with a solid press-on adapter and not look back.

[attach=0,msg1383963]

[Ohio HD]

  Stockish bike or even mildly modified?  I'd opt for a CV40 with a solid press-on adapter and not look back.

[attach=0,msg1383963]

   

[david lee]

took the carb to my hd mech checked it out. all is good he put in a 0.80 int jet. he said a 0.265 would run to lean

[kd]

 

[david lee]

0.280

[JW113]

Dave, this is a discussion like oil. Everybody has their opinion, and they all suck. However, Super B is 70's technology targeted to drag racing. If you want to apply that to a street bike, well then good luck. There are alternatives that are much more street friendly, for example the CV-40. I have one on my Shovelhead, and it works flawlessly. HD evidently thought so also. S&S carbs are fine, but are more drag race oriented. Is that how you ride? If not, then consider a more street manners friendly carburetor.

Just sayin'...


-JW

[david lee]

Dave, this is a discussion like oil. Everybody has their opinion, and they all suck. However, Super B is 70's technology targeted to drag racing. If you want to apply that to a street bike, well then good luck. There are alternatives that are much more street friendly, for example the CV-40. I have one on my Shovelhead, and it works flawlessly. HD evidently thought so also. S&S carbs are fine, but are more drag race oriented. Is that how you ride? If not, then consider a more street manners friendly carburetor.

Just sayin'...


-JW

got it

[capn]

76shuvlinoff, That CV fits under those FLH tanks OK? Thinkin about puttin one on my 76 FLH.

[76shuvlinoff]

76shuvlinoff, That CV fits under those FLH tanks OK? Thinkin about puttin one on my 76 FLH.

No problem getting under the tank.  There are press-on adapters you seal with JB weld and make sure to use a support. I heated and re-bent the one from the front rocker. It's solid as a rock. There might be a concern with that upper oil line between the rockers. My motor doesn't have one, maybe JW can speak to that.

The CV40 manners are impeccable.  The 40mm seemed a little small for my 93 so I went to a 44mm just because I could, but that might be a little overkill,  it takes a little longer to warm up for the idle to level out (1/2-1 mile).  I have no problems admitting I am not a tuner, I never write anything down, can't even remember what exact jets I have in now.... but the bike starts easy, runs well and plugs look great. 

I did have to get a later throttle drive assembly and cable for it. You could run two cables for the lawyers but I never have.

.... and yes. I KNOW I just jinxed myself 

[capn]

Thanks.Yeah I already got late model controls.Its gettin harder for me to remember jet sizes too.

[76shuvlinoff]

I was out tinkering on my 76 today and checking it over. Too rainy and cold for a test ride.

David, just curious, does your B have an insulator block sandwiched between the carb and manifold?  Not that it's a problem, looking over my carb got me thinking about this thread.

[JW113]

The CV fits fine with the 5 gallon FL tanks. The problem can be the air cleaner. I'm using an S&S Super B cover on a home made backing plate. When I first made the plate, I put the carb hole in about the same location as on the stock B backing plate. This put the top back edge of the a/c into the side of the tank. Instead of making a new backing plate, I notched the hell out of the air cleaner cover. To do it right, you would cut mount hole for the backing plate a bit higher (i.e. lower the air cleaner), then all is good. However, I later added a phenolic carb insulator block, that moved the CV out about 1/2"? Now there is tons of clearance.

[attach=0]

As Mark said, CV on a Shovel is bliss. Easy staring, great throttle response, great fuel mileage. Better than fuel injection!

-JW

[capn]

I got a 1" aluminum spacer on my S&S e manifold. And a notch in AC cover.Had a nice CV but I sold it on ebay a few yrs. ago.Im gonna buy another one.

[Burnout]

Better than fuel injection!

-JW

Oh! Now you've gone too far!   

[capn]

Just got back from a 50 mile ride on the 76.Gotta admit it runs good.No hiccups, smooth,good power.Thats with the S&S E.

[kd]

Just got back from a 50 mile ride on the 76.Gotta admit it runs good.No hiccups, smooth,good power.Thats with the S&S E.

Is that the same conditions that were a problem in your opening post?

[76shuvlinoff]

Just got back from a 50 mile ride on the 76.Gotta admit it runs good.No hiccups, smooth,good power.Thats with the S&S E.

With a decent  compression bump I have pulled 46-52 mpg Highway with a E.  The plugs always looked rich to me though.  I can't say my CV has done better than that but there was a gain in general manners.   I have not been on a trip with the shovel in many years. Running around locally it seems to get 38-42. Same as my FI 103 TC Ultra loaded heavy.

[JW113]

My "little" 74" gets ~50mpg at highway speeds (65-70). Not bad. And agree, the big thing the CV brings to the party is very nice manners. Not to mention a whole lot simpler, and a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper to tune than FI!


-JW

[david lee]

I was out tinkering on my 76 today and checking it over. Too rainy and cold for a test ride.

David, just curious, does your B have an insulator block sandwiched between the carb and manifold?  Not that it's a problem, looking over my carb got me thinking about this thread.

no it dosent

[DA71FX]

I have never been a fan of S&S carbs, I have a few on the shelf....with thuderjet without...adjustable air bleed and on and on...they just never impressed me, yes I can make power and make it run well enough but they don't come close to a CV carb...though my flavor of CV is a bit different...I run SU carbs and have been for more than 20 years, My 74 shovel ran one and when I got my 71 18 years ago I put one on and it is still there, only rejetted once and that was because I moved from sea level to 5000ft elevation....one kick start, good manners and good mileage...the only other carb I really like other than CV type carbs are Mikuni carbs....I have no real love for butterfly carbs of any flavor...bendix...kehin...they do what they are supposed to, I just don't think an S&S is a huge improvment over a tuned and well set up bendix or Kehin one a stock-stockish street shovel....and that a well set up CV or Mikuni is head and shoulders better....

[david lee]

I have never been a fan of S&S carbs, I have a few on the shelf....with thuderjet without...adjustable air bleed and on and on...they just never impressed me, yes I can make power and make it run well enough but they don't come close to a CV carb...though my flavor of CV is a bit different...I run SU carbs and have been for more than 20 years, My 74 shovel ran one and when I got my 71 18 years ago I put one on and it is still there, only rejetted once and that was because I moved from sea level to 5000ft elevation....one kick start, good manners and good mileage...the only other carb I really like other than CV type carbs are Mikuni carbs....I have no real love for butterfly carbs of any flavor...bendix...kehin...they do what they are supposed to, I just don't think an S&S is a huge improvment over a tuned and well set up bendix or Kehin one a stock-stockish street shovel....and that a well set up CV or Mikuni is head and shoulders better....

a good summary

[FSG]

CV on a Shovel is bliss. Easy staring, great throttle response, great fuel mileage   

looking for the pix of an 05 CV Takeoff we put on a FXEF 

[david lee]

jw113 says s&s carbs were for hi performance drag bikes but i see them on road bikes

[Ohio HD]

S&S made The Super 'B' and before that the 'L' series for high performance motors. Whether they were on the street or strip, they weren't made for stock or almost stock motors. The Super 'D' is too large for all but the highest performance motors.

[turboprop]

To everyone that thinks their butterfly carb is great, put an AFR gauge on your bike for a week. I bet you will change your opinion. But dont take my word for it, or even try to debate me. Just do it and see for yourself.

[Burnout]

Waste of time to preach to them, they still want to keep their drag pipes.....

[capn]

Most guys dont have a shovel for performance.I got a 120 for that.But I ride my shovel just as often.

[JW113]

jw113 says s&s carbs were for hi performance drag bikes but i see them on road bikes

There is a very widespread ideology that believes "what's good for the drag strip is good for the street". There is no doubt that in the hands of the right engine builder and tuner, much race track technology can be applied to the street with reasonably good results. While max power is the primary goal, it sometimes/often comes at the expense of driveability. Common side effects are hard starting, cold blooded esp on cold and/or damp days, poor fuel mileage, difficult to tune A/F ratio in the low/mid RPM range and/or dips/flat spots in the RPM range. The performance carbs from S&S from the 70's (i.e Super B) often had many of those side effects. Yes, at the drag strip, and tuned by somebody that know what they were doing, were the cat's meow. And back then, there were also not a lot of alternatives to the stock carburetors.

This should be a clue (from the S&S Super B instructions):

[attach=0]

[attach=1]

I have personally never seen any documentation from S&S that claims the Super B was meant to be an alternative to the stock HD carbs, at least for the purpose of an all around, everyday, practical carburetor. You will find the term "performance" just about everywhere to look. Bolting a performance carburetor alone on a stock bike does not add any performance. Usually, just the opposite. Race bikes (i.e. drag bikes) are purposefully tuned to make max power at high RPM, not to be chugged around town or take on long road trips.

Yes, you see a lot of older bikes with S&S Super B's on them. You also see a lot of bikes with drag pipes. Note that term, "drag" pipes. Does that give a clue what they were intended for? Talk about truth in advertising!


I've never really understood what drives dudes to put equipment on their ride that actually hurts performance and especially reliability and streetability. But, it's not my problem to deal with, so who cares?

-JW

[76shuvlinoff]

My stock Keihen and Es would puke gas back out of the throat from general riding to WOT until I put bolts in the drags.  There's nothing like having your passenger enjoying a gas soaked leg after a ride.

There was no reversion with the T-header either but I went to the CV carbs anyhow.  My 76 has a relatively healthy mill in it but it's no drag bike, just a poser. 

[Reddog74usa]

My completely stock 82 FXE has the original carb on it with the Andrews accelerator pump mod that was installed by the previous owner (original) to eliminate the carb cough their known for. Bike runs very good however the mileage is down A LOT. Over the years I've had many different carbs on the Shovels I rode. Delorto, S&S B & E's, SU's, Edelbrock Quick silver, Cv and Mik 42. Out of them all the Mikuni really stood out above all the rest for great street manners and performance along with good mileage. I got a little creative and use a 1 inch spacer to solve any clearance issues. I don't keep it at one inch so I take a measurement and have the spacer cut down so it clears and still stays close to the engine so I don't have to bow my leg around it. I also use vulcan solid mount or as they call it a race back adaptor carb back so it actually bolts up to an S&S manifold SOLID so no issues with it popping off going down the road. I also use a manifold with the vacuum port so I can facilitate a VOES with a nice DTT or similar nose cone iggy and have to say it's the best overall set up I have used on a Shovel so far. I live at 4800 feet and regularly go above 12K feet here in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado without a hitch. I believe you should make YOUR CHOICE on a carb based on what your after and the kind of riding you do. If you like basic and simple and decent the S&S E is great, if you want the most friendly, smooth and good mileage and elevation friendly the CV can't be beat. For me, the Mik 42 on a Shovel set up the way I do is the best all around set up for great manners and mileage along with performance I have found personally.