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Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent

Started by 1340evo, May 15, 2021, 08:32:28 AM

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1340evo

May 15, 2021, 08:32:28 AM Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 10:54:30 AM by 1340evo
Hi All

I'm close to putting the motor back together now, but just wanted your thoughts on this issue.
Its a small indent, measuring about .0015 deep where a small end pin has probably indented it in the past.

I mentioned it to the shop when there and they said to put a spot of seal on it as it wans't worth skimming for that amount

Now, I had paper base gaskets on before and they sealed okay, no leaks. But I'm using the James ones now with the metal middle and the raised sealing line both sides so shouls work better.

So the question is,

1     do i just leave it as the James gasket will seal
2     A dot of sealant like the shop said (will this work with the James gaskets)
3     JB weld skim over, leveled with a blade (has anyone used JB weld for anything like this?
4     Other

As I say, its only .0015 deep as I've measured it with a slither of feeler gauge. It actualy looks much worst than it is and I guess thats why the shop didn't think it was worth bothering with. You can feel it with your finger, but measuring the missmatch on the case halves is worst than the indent.

Please don't say, pull it all in bits and skim it as I did ask them to do that and they said not to....  that time is past  :)


kd

Spread a "thin film" of Permatex Aviation gasket cement on it.  Be sure the surfaces are clean of any oil including finger prints. the aviation cement is non hardening and will squeeze out around the base of the cylinder when torqued down. Clean the bead off that forms around the rim.  After it has been sitting for a while, go back and check the torque in the proper sequence.  You may get a little more bleed after a period of time but clean-up is easy. 

You don't have to use much.  The compression of the gasket will force out equal amounts inside and outside the base gasket and you can only clean the outer side bead off after it is torqued down. A film as thin as you can possibly make it is all you need and you will see that very little will appear as expelled along the joint. The remainder will fill any imperfection you have that the gasket doesn't compress into as tightly as the rest of the surface..
KD

1340evo

Just a question on that, will it work with the James gasket as I thought they kind of bonded to the metal.
That's why I thought JB weld may be best? A scraped flat bit left to dry then ensure its flat, so the gasket has something to compress on and it don't extrude out?

kd

You'll have to decide.  Maybe someone else will jump in and agree. I know I wouldn't.  I would do and have done what I explained above. The aviation cement is made to seal and not build up. It never hardens.  There is zero change in the gasket thickness.  It compresses to .000000 and pushes out what it doesn't need.  By that I mean it was not measurable from the dry fit on mockup to assembled.  Like I said, if you feel the JB Weld is better, go for it.  I have never used James gaskets.  I have only used MOCO or Cometic and .0035 linen paper as a shim on a .020 Cometic base gasket(to hit zero deck height that needed unobtainable .023 base gaskets). 
KD

1340evo

May 16, 2021, 01:12:36 AM #4 Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 06:34:49 AM by Coyote
Thanks KD... we have Hylomar, wonder if its thr same type of sealer?
Just looked back at what the shop said, and they'd use Permatex or Loctite so I'll get some Permatex ordered.
I have a spare .020 James base gasket so will do a test build, just to make sure it does not eat away the extruded seal stuff on the face, otherwise good to go. Need to skim the heads next week having made a cutter but that should be straight forward.
It's amazing the state of some of these engines once pulled in bit's!

Is this the one?


kd

KD

Burnout

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

JW113

Agree, you'll likely make it worse than better, trying to "machine" the surface flat again.

I am a huge fan of those Foam Met gaskets. Never had one leak. Your silicon printed gaskets should be fine though. Coat both sides with Hylomar.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Deye76

East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

1340evo

I think the gasket will hold it TBH, it is the metal and foam ones I'm using. Thats what they are designed to do. As said, my case halves are worst at around .002 on the rear. For some reason they all do this and mine is quite a good one??? Wonder why they just move on the rear as the others are fine, bit of warp in the casting over time?
Wasn't going to machine the JB weld, just put it in the indent and flat off with a blade before drying. But if it does come off, it's a leak point.
As you say, just fit the gasket or a dab of the sealer

kd

You would never get the barrel on the piston, in place and torqued down before the JB Weld had set. It ain't happening no matter who you are and how fast you can be.  A thin, barely noticeable touch of one of the 2 gasket cements suggested and you'll be good to go. The non hardening properties will allow you to take your time and do a quality assembly job.
KD

1340evo

Quote from: kd on May 16, 2021, 10:05:16 AM
You would never get the barrel on the piston, in place and torqued down before the JB Weld had set. It ain't happening no matter who you are and how fast you can be.  A thin, barely noticeable touch of one of the 2 gasket cements suggested and you'll be good to go. The non hardening properties will allow you to take your time and do a quality assembly job.

No, I didn't think of doing it that way. A dab in the dent and flat off with a blade. Leave 24 hours for full cure then the gasket has a flat surface to go against. But as only .0015 tick, I'm not sure it would not just crack off....
I'll do it the way you suggest with the sealer when it arrives ;)

kd

As the others have said, you should be fine.  It's good to see you catching and paying attention to the details.  :up:
KD

JW113

OK good, you have the Foamet type. Should be good to go. The other nice thing about Hylomar is that if you take it apart again, the gasket will come off clean and not stick to the aluminum. I use it, a very thin coat, on just about all gaskets for that reason. Nothing I hate worse than trying to dig & scrape off stuck gaskets...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

1340evo

Quote from: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 10:46:10 AM
OK good, you have the Foamet type. Should be good to go. The other nice thing about Hylomar is that if you take it apart again, the gasket will come off clean and not stick to the aluminum. I use it, a very thin coat, on just about all gaskets for that reason. Nothing I hate worse than trying to dig & scrape off stuck gaskets...

-JW

Really,  even on these. It does say they need to bond the the clean matal surfaces?.... its this type


JW113

That does not look like a Foamet gasket to me, it look like a silicone printed rubberized metal gasket. It will not stick to the metal, so no worries there. Give it a shot, try it without Hylomar if that is what the instructions say to do.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

kd

I'm with JW on this one.  As I mentioned previously, I haven't used James base gaskets and therefore I didn't visualize the ones you have just posted a pic of.  There will likely be very little value in applying anything to them. It's too bad we didn't see what you had before we all recommended an  aircraft cement or Hylomar.  By the description I visualized a steel gasket like Cometic sells, They have the typical single layer with stamped sealing ridges and a micro rubber coating.  The ridges collapse under torque laying them flat on the mating surfaces. The ones you have should seal OK on the beads as they trace the inner and outer perimeter, studs and oil galleries.  Follow their instructions and remember how important cleanliness is.  Silicon actually has a deterioration life span in contact with oil and the expected seal could fail. For that reason I avoid silicon gasket sealers.  Put it this way, if it does start to seep I would not reorder them.
KD

JW113

Yeah, life is a long series of experiments. Until it's not. LOL! Give it a try, what the heck. What is the worst that can happen? You have to pull it apart again and machine the case and barrels. Or not. Who the the heck knows? And if that comes to pass, well, you'll work through it. I say go for it, give it a try. It's a Harley-Davidson for crying out loud, they're supposed to mark their spot. Ha ha ha ha!
:oil:

Seriously, I think it will be A-OK with those gaskets. Take a deep breath, pull up your britches, and proceed forth.
:SM:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

1340evo

Let's give it a go.. as you say, I need something to do over winter  :wink:

What is a Foamet gasket then if its not this type?

wfolarry

Those gaskets will leak if the surface isn't perfectly flat. I cut the cylinder gasket surface in a lathe to get them flat.
There are better gaskets out there. Those are at the bottom of my list. Same with their rocker gaskets. Leakers.

1340evo

May 17, 2021, 03:22:00 AM #20 Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 04:01:46 AM by 1340evo
Ok, so what's the best gasket to use?
People do say these are good, but if better ones exist I'll give them a go.
I've already trimmed the cylinder base so they are spot on...

Don D


1340evo


Don D

I'll bet you are right, but .004" is going to make or break the build? If the piston is -.004 what's the issue?  You can use a .030 head gasket and mill the heads and have a very tight squish.

1340evo

Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 17, 2021, 06:03:51 AM
I'll bet you are right, but .004" is going to make or break the build? If the piston is -.004 what's the issue?  You can use a .030 head gasket and mill the heads and have a very tight squish.

With what I've got it would give a squish of .038 and I was trying for .034 ish.. I have the head gaskets already....
What to the original HD ones look like? Do they have a silicon bead around them. Tried to find them on-line but can't find a pic...

Actually the ones I have are quoted as a silicon bead, so adding a dot of silicone to it probably won't harm ;)