Pigtails or Hayden oil fix

[1340evo]

Whilst I'm in bit's.. is it worth fitting either of these?

Or even making something on my lathe to fit?... any one made similar things?

[Scotty]

Pigtails is all I use and they work. Never made them I have the tap and tool so just buy the tubes.

[SixShooter14]

Pigtails is all I use and they work. Never made them I have the tap and tool so just buy the tubes.

[JW113]

If you install one of these, it's also far less likely to leak. At least, while the motor is running.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253213372444?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

The problem with the older "non-head breather" models (Evo, Shovel, Pan, Knuck) is they run with a little bit of positive crankcase pressure. Which tends to push oil out anywhere it can. After the head breather Evos, they run with about a 2"Hg (average) negative pressure. I have one of those gadgets on all my bikes except twin cam, and now none of them leak. That is, if ran regularly. If they sit for long periods, they will wet sump to some degree, and a big pool of oil in the crankcase tends to weep out and drip a little. But no more Exxon Valdez sized oil slicks on the garage floor anymore.

I don't have anything against Pig Tales, but I don't have them on my bikes and they don't leak at the base gaskets. Pig Tales were a nice fix in the days of paper base gaskets, which tended to get brittle with age, and with internal crankcase pressure, would blow out. They also only address the drain back holes, not the entire circumference of the cylinder/case junction. These new Foamet or steel w/ silicone bead base base gaskets are essentially "blow out proof".

-JW

[Scotty]

I don't have anything against Pig Tales, but I don't have them on my bikes and they don't leak at the base gaskets. Pig Tales were a nice fix in the days of paper base gaskets, which tended to get brittle with age, and with internal crankcase pressure, would blow out. They also only address the drain back holes, not the entire circumference of the cylinder/case junction. These new Foamet or steel w/ silicone bead base base gaskets are essentially "blow out proof".

Pigtails and Cometic base and head gaskets and guarantee no leaks and no blow outs and it never will leak ever again.

[hogget]

cant find anything online about pigtails except battery tender connectors - what are they?

[1340evo]

If you install one of these, it's also far less likely to leak. At least, while the motor is running.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253213372444?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


-JW

Looks an interesting item, but guess it is just a ribber flap onto a seat. Mine is bottom breathing and I just run the pipe to a small filter under the bike.... Will this improve anything? it may help create a bit of negative pressure maybe?

[1340evo]

cant find anything online about pigtails except battery tender connectors - what are they?

here you go.. got to say as of about 2 weeks ago, I had no idea either... https://www.amazon.com/HARDWARE-BASE-GASKET-PASS-PIGTAIL/dp/B07PV6PLY5

[Dan89flstc]

True the bottoms of the cylinders, this will do more than any of the aftermarket gizmos to prevent future base gasket leaks.

[1340evo]

I think its more to do with what happens over time. My jugs are 30 plus years old so should be well seasoned by now. But the bases were not 100% flat before I skimmed them.
I'm sure you are right, and the amount I'll use the Hog over the other bikes is minimal. Just want to get things as good as possible....

[JW113]

Looks an interesting item, but guess it is just a ribber flap onto a seat. Mine is bottom breathing and I just run the pipe to a small filter under the bike.... Will this improve anything? it may help create a bit of negative pressure maybe?

My Evo, Shovel, and Indian are all case breathers, and I have one of these vent valves in the vent line on all of them. This essentially copies the same idea as head breathers, in fact the valve (which is replaceable) looks just like the valve in a head breather. It's just a one way rubber valve.

-JW

[1340evo]

so whats the end result here, do you think it gives a slight negative pressure in the cases instead of positive?     

[JW113]

Both my Shovelhead and Indian would ooze oil out in all sorts of places. After the crank vent, no more. So I'd say yes, slight vacuum inside the crankcase.

-JW

[jsachs1]

"I don't leave home without them".
Every EVO I do engine work on gets Pigtails when the cylinders are off. I stay way to busy to have any possible oil leak problems.
John

[1340evo]

Thanks both.... im on it 

Mmm nothing available in the UK...  may have to make some...

[Scotty]

"I don't leave home without them".
Every EVO I do engine work on gets Pigtails when the cylinders are off. I stay way to busy to have any possible oil leak problems.
John

John knows what he is talking about more than most on this site.

[1340evo]

assume there is 1 per jug on the lowest hole. Do they have a hex in the middle so you can install them?

[Scotty]

assume there is 1 per jug on the lowest hole. Do they have a hex in the middle so you can install them?

correct hex is in threaded bit and done up from the top of cylinder

[1340evo]

top of the cylinder    ill see what I can make 

[FSG]

click => pigtail destructions

[1340evo]

Will see what can be done tomorrow,  you could have a long tube all the way from the top of the cylinder and sealing there, bit more meat than the base...

[ghostrider]

I fixed a friends leaky evo this winter and also debated what "fix" to use.  I found a Trock lapping plate, so that was done first, then I used the pigtails, based on searching on here and reading that John spoke highly of them.  Kinda pricey, but leaks suck. Getting the tap perfectly lined up is a bit challenging.

Thanks for those instructions FSG.

[1340evo]

Well, I had a play today, didn't tap anything but just turned a brass piece exact size of the hole in the barrel. On fast feed it kind of put a small thread on the piece and I could screw it in to the point it was just sub-flush of the surface and solid.

Forgive me here as I work in mm and not imperial, but basically you have an 8mm hole in the barrels, going into a 6.3 mm hole in the cases. The oil comes down and collects on the gasket as that's where it necks down.

I guess all you're trying to do is bridge the sealing point from the base, over the gasket and into the crank case bore... so why are pigtails so long?

In fact something that seals into the barrel drain and only goes 1/4" onto the case should do the job, so it pools on the insert and does not see the joint.

A couple of pics of what I was messing with, I was inserting it with a M5 thread up the bore, but it's getting too thin, and brass is not ideal, you need something a bit more malleable. I could make them from copper and it has the same expansion as Ali.

But something that presses in with let's say bearing lock to seal it, and goes into the cases a few mm should work. What do you think?

[Scotty]

The tube actually comes out of the cylinder on a bit of an angle and copper is a bit more malleable to get the tube down the hole in the case correctly.
Yes the pigtails are long but can be cut down as they only need to be long enough to go through the case.

[1340evo]

yes, been looking since. I guess the instructions say to tap it deeper so the head is lets say 1/4" up the drain. The drain in the barrel is angled where as the hole in the case is straight, so having fitted the pigtale, you then need to put a slight bend on the pipe so it fits into the case, hence the need to go deeper so you have a length in the barrel you can bend.
I'll see if I can find some tube like copper brake pipe or something.

If the ID is 3/16" whats the OD.

Also, does anyone know what thread is used. M9 x 1.25 would work well but guess its UNC looking at the pics.. maybe 3/8"?

And how do the brass ones work like in FSG's pic? if they are brass, how can you bend them?

[Scotty]

If the ID is 3/16" whats the OD.
Also, does anyone know what thread is used. M9 x 1.25 would work well but guess its UNC looking at the pics.. maybe 3/8"?
And how do the brass ones work like in FSG's pic? if they are brass, how can you bend them?

As long as they fit into the hole in the crankcase that is what the OD is. FSG's photo looks like they have been sanded as they mention in the instructions to slide easily into the crankcase holes.
Test the fit of the PigTail® in the crankcase drain hole, by inserting at least l" of the
PigTail's® drain tube end into that hole (sec Figure 5). If the drain tube cannot be inserted
at least l" into the crankcase drain hole without undue force, sand the outer diameter of the
tube end until the PigTail® can be inserted freely.



3/8 x 16 tpi tap which is UNC but it is a aluminum tap

Everyone I have put in I always thought the threaded end was brass and the tubes copper
[attach=0,msg1386646]

[1340evo]

Thannks for that, Thought it would be 3/8 but looking at them, could it be UNF?

I'll get some tube and some brass ends turner up and then braze them in as they have done here

[FXDBI]

Thannks for that, Thought it would be 3/8 but looking at them, could it be UNF?

I'll get some tube and some brass ends turner up and then braze them in as they have done here

They look like they were silver soldered not brazed... Bob

[1340evo]

you could be right, I wonder what temps you see down there and if just high temp normal solder would do the job?

Does anyone know the exact tube size ID and OD?

If I do use a UNF tap, it gives a bit more meat in the brass fitting so 1/4 tube would be possable just, but quite tight in the cases,
wonder if they used thin wall tube?

[tdrglide]

I would not trust regular tin solder. Silver solder is easy enough to use. Use correct flux for silver solder

[kd]

Straight solder has a reputation for cracking and separation with vibration. There's a name for it in engineering that includes a trip to the shade if I say it. lol A pic is worth a thousand words.     That's why it's used in plumbing.  Minor vibration and close substantial area in the joint.  Silver solder has a longer grain and will take most vibration induced flex and wide temperature growth changes.

[1340evo]

Looking on line. You can get silver solder paste. Melts at 720 c so that looks like the job. Comes in a syringe

[Scotty]

Yes silver solder just like they use for plumbing and you can get different melt point silver solder from most hardware stores. Done a few plumbing jobs around the house over the past 35 years here and flame and silver solder and never a problem especially joining copper to brass.

[1340evo]

Maybe not the plumbing stuff, more like jewellery making solder. Much higher melting point and better it would appear... your normal solder is just above 200c so dangerously close to cylinder temps

[Scotty]

Maybe not the plumbing stuff, more like jewellery making solder. Much higher melting point and better it would appear... your normal solder is just above 200c so dangerously close to cylinder temps

No silver solder is silver solder it joins all precious metals and semi precious metals like gold, silver, brass and copper
Used in jewellery manufacturing and for high pressure plumbing.

Silver solders' tensile strength typically ranges from 40,000-70,000 pounds per square inch (psi). Adding silver to a copper brazing alloy will result in a lower melting point and higher fluidity. The fluidity helps the molten metal to penetrate the gap better, creating a smooth, sealed joint.

[tdrglide]

Don't use the 15% silver flat sticks either. Use high silver content like 56%. Available through welding supply stores or online. Silver brazing is the correct term for what you want here. Or buy some pig tails

[1340evo]

Don't use the 15% silver flat sticks either. Use high silver content like 56%. Available through welding supply stores or online. Silver brazing is the correct term for what you want here. Or buy some pig tails

I would buy them, but all out of stock, and nothing in the UK either.
The solder I have is Silver 50%, Cadmium 19%, Copper 15%, Zinc 16%

[ghostrider]

A few sellers on ebay have em,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114277393332?hash=item1a9b76a3b4:g:sPoAAOSwppde54Wa

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294132550396?hash=item447baa8afc:g:VuQAAOSweV5gfk3f


They are
OD 6.18 mm
ID   4.84 mm
wall thickness is around 0.7 mm
52.5 mm long

[Scotty]

Silver brazing is the correct term for what you want here.

Only in the USA in Australia it's called silver soldering and probably the same in the UK

[1340evo]

They didn't show on UK e-bay? wonder why??

But going on £100 landed so quite expensive. For £50 I'll be able to make 5 sets and sell the rest

thanks for confirming the dims...

[tdrglide]

I would find a SSF-6 silver solder. Widely available. I have used muggy weld ssf-6 with great success joining dissimilar metals. Joint design is critical. Needs a slip fit, avoid butt joints. Make a few test pieces. How are your torch skills

That all said, I have used James base gaskets in the past without any pig tails or such and with out any leaks. Don't think they would ever blow out like paper

[tdrglide]

Silver brazing is the correct term for what you want here.

Only in the USA in Australia it's called silver soldering and probably the same in the UK

Terms get interchanged in the US often and confuse people. Brazing temps are generally above 800F

[1340evo]

I'm sure it will be fine... what does it have to do.. nothing much.... should get some bits this week and will post results

[Scotty]

The solder I have is Silver 50%, Cadmium 19%, Copper 15%, Zinc 16%

That will work I use 45% silver and no issues

[1340evo]

joining brass and copper ?

[Scotty]

joining brass and copper ?

Yes 45% silver content plus whatever other stuff was in it.

Also because it fit my budget which is always on the cheap side 

Commonly known as "45% Silver Solder".
Contains 45% Silver content.
Self fluxing rods with low melting point.
Brazing temperature approx 618-760°C.
Good general, purpose alloy with the lowest melting brazing alloy available, suitable most metals except aluminium and magnesium.
Exceptional strength and a narrow melting range.
Ideal for production brazing and maintenance work because of its ease of application.

[1340evo]

No, what I was meaning is are the parts you are soldering made from Copper and Brass? or is the head on yours made of some kind of copper or other material??

[Scotty]

No, what I was meaning is are the parts you are soldering made from Copper and Brass? or is the head on yours made of some kind of copper or other material??

Yes copper pipe and brass fittings for plumbing I did not make pigtails but the theory is the same and plumbing has to hold pressure a pigtail does not.
As long as you make it a slip fit and solder flows into the joint it will hold forever but I think you know that already.

[1340evo]

Yup, maybe over thinking this a lot.. its a bit of pipe to transfer oil... bits should be here this week so will see what I can knock up....

[PoorUB]

I worked as an HVAC tech for years and we would use 45% when silver brazing copper to brass. Plus you want the correct flux.

You can use white Harris Stay Silv flux, but this was preferred,
https://www.amazon.com/Harris-SSBF1-Stay-Brazing-Black/dp/B00EDMM4KU/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=45%25+silver+solder+black+flux&qid=1621946284&sr=8-5

Once you go black you never go back!

[1340evo]

Does it say on the instructions how far up the drain hole to tap and position the heads of the pigtail's?

[Scotty]

Does it say on the instructions how far up the drain hole to tap and position the heads of the pigtail's?

Lubricate the tap and oil passage with a small amount of kerosene or WD-40. Carefully tap
the oil passage to the full depth of the tap threads (approximately 1" deep). Remove the
masking tape from the cylinder extension. Thoroughly clean and dry the tapped hole and
the rest of the oil passage.

That is what the instructions say but as long as only pipe coming out of drain hole then it wont interfere with the base gasket in any way.

[jsachs1]

 Very simple. Tap just enough threads so the threaded fitting, or any sloppy solder work doesn't interfere with the cylinder sitting flat with no gasket.
John

[1340evo]

Yes, has to be deep enough to allow the pipe to bend without stressing the joint or the brass part. Try bend it too close and you'd cause problems. Okay, thanks. Just wondered what they said...

[jsachs1]

The oil drain back hole is NOT at a right angle to the cylinder base. You need to mark the angle of the drain back hole on the spigot, so you can start the tap properly.
John

[1340evo]

Hi John, no its 15 deg or so at an angle... not sure I understand your marking of the spigot.. what you calling the spigot?
Or are you saying to bend them before you screw them in?
All I'm saying above is to allow the head to go into a good depth or when bending you are going to stress the joint.

[Scotty]

A picture is worth a thousand words

[attach=0]

[attach=1]

[1340evo]

Ok, get what you are saying now. I've ground the end of the Tap so it just fits the hole so it will line up. Trying to tap on a angle is not easy so prefer to use a mechanical lead....

[jsachs1]

Also be sure to try the cylinder, with the pig tail installed on the case with no piston. Any resistance or binding HAS to be fixed before final assembly. You should be able to wiggle the cylinder slightly. I run them shorter than stock, which helps in this area.
John

[1340evo]

yes indeed.. I gues you only need 1/4" or so into the case in reality... just to bridge the joint

[1340evo]

Okay, pigtails made.. just wondering how long the head is.. don't want it too long as it will take on heat and creat a hot spot... any idea what thread length you've used as I could always make these a tad shorter

[Scotty]

They look good and will be cooled by oil return and never seen a hot spot when taking them out for a bore cleanup.

[1340evo]

what sort of oil temp might we see as I was fitting them with low strength loctite to fully seal them? or could put some PTFE tape in the gap just in case?

[Scotty]

what sort of oil temp might we see as I was fitting them with low strength loctite to fully seal them? or could put some PTFE tape in the gap just in case?

I use loctite 243 and they were still tight 7 years later

I suspect even loctite 567 would work just as well which is high temp liquid ptfe

On a hot day with a hard run engine I doubt the oil temp goes much over 230F

[1340evo]

Should be fine then, this stuff is 200 deg C....
In and ready to go, cut to the same length as the skirt

[Scotty]

  looks good

[1340evo]

and a 5mm bore thats a good % increase on 3/16"... Assembly tomorrow 

[1340evo]

Not had that much time today, but just put the new pistons, with the new rings, into the newly honed cylinders.. Bloody hell, they are tight.. don't remenber them being that tight before... Its not the pistons, must just be the rings on the hone.
Gapped the rings and they were mid limit so guess its just newness, but quite stiff to move up and down by hand...

Can't imagine doing that in the frame as i've had to use a soft mallet to tap them in...

[Ohio HD]

Did you scrub the bores with soap and water? They need to be so clean a white t-shirt can be run through the cylinder and stay clean.

[1340evo]

No, but ive had cloths through there with pre-paint on to clean them.. and then oiled up.. don't think there is any hone left as it would pick up and mark... but didn't do it the way your saying?

Ok, both pistons back out.. ill re-clean and double check tomorrow....

[kd]

   Laughing with you and not at you.  The cleaning step is soooo important and shortened up by many.  Lots of those end in failures or substandard engines.  Coated piston skirts will imbed with near invisible grit and go to work in the cylinders.  You will not be sorry you went over them again.  Let us know if you detect anything. 

You also don't want wipers that will snag on the super fine hone marks and leave almost undetectable fibers behind.  Magnifying fresh hone marks will show the jagged edges left behind.  Wipe (scrub) with the hone pattern too. As soon as they are soap and water cleaned and then well rinsed, dry and rub oil into it immediately.

[Ohio HD]

Hit Me, I'm A Link...



I'm also a link...

[FXDBI]

https://www.totalseal.com/product/quick-seat      Get some of this and follow the instructions see if you get it right the first time.   Bob

[kd]

   I use a good 2 stroke oil mix liberally on assembly for first start-up protection.

[1340evo]

All stripped, re-cleaned, scrubbed and re-assembled.. better maybe, but not much...
Must just be the pressure of the rings... I can easy lift a pot from the piston pin with no fear of it coming out.. but guess thats the seal you need.. just struck me it was tight..  I've made a short video and TBH it does look harder and sounds horrid.. in real life its maybe not as bad as it looks
thats what running in's all about?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12WuJcNpOyAvb93ZduLUduTjeKOKTaWDE/view?usp=sharing

Having now got it together and turning it over from a socket on the output shaft, it does feel normal.. put a squirt of 20/50 in there to keep it all lubricared whilst im turning it over... Its amazing the resistance it offered up on the bench, more than I've seen before, but there again, it is a big bore.. so all good

[Don D]

Looks an interesting item, but guess it is just a ribber flap onto a seat. Mine is bottom breathing and I just run the pipe to a small filter under the bike.... Will this improve anything? it may help create a bit of negative pressure maybe?

My Evo, Shovel, and Indian are all case breathers, and I have one of these vent valves in the vent line on all of them. This essentially copies the same idea as head breathers, in fact the valve (which is replaceable) looks just like the valve in a head breather. It's just a one way rubber valve.

-JW

What's the difference between this and a $5 inline PCV valve, I get the concept and don't disagree with the idea.

[1340evo]

Looks an interesting item, but guess it is just a ribber flap onto a seat. Mine is bottom breathing and I just run the pipe to a small filter under the bike.... Will this improve anything? it may help create a bit of negative pressure maybe?

My Evo, Shovel, and Indian are all case breathers, and I have one of these vent valves in the vent line on all of them. This essentially copies the same idea as head breathers, in fact the valve (which is replaceable) looks just like the valve in a head breather. It's just a one way rubber valve.

-JW

What's the difference between this and a $5 inline PCV valve, I get the concept and don't disagree with the idea.

What type of valve?.. like a one way valve with a ball and spring, or a rubber disc type?.. they may be available where as these arn't

[kd]

The automotive PCV valve is not a positive seal.  It will bypass in the closed position.  It was a topic of discussion here a couple of years or so previous.

[1340evo]

The automotive PCV valve is not a positive seal.  It will bypass in the closed position.  It was a topic of discussion here a couple of years or so previous.

But does the one JW113 posted work?

SIFTON CASE BREATHER VENT PCV VALVE

[Ohio HD]

You can give S&S $13.95 a piece for them.

S&S

or

Two for $4.30

Amazon


Same valve either way.

[ghostrider]

Okay, pigtails made.. just wondering how long the head is.. don't want it too long as it will take on heat and creat a hot spot... any idea what thread length you've used as I could always make these a tad shorter

A little late, but here ya go.