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Inner primary leak on 2014 124 with 10000 miles?????

Started by guesscrazy, May 22, 2021, 07:55:40 PM

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guesscrazy

Looks like my 124 is leaking from behind the inner primary. Leaking oil not tranny fluid since I have shockproof and would see the color. Haven't pulled it apart yet but should I go ahead and order an S&S race since I will have it apart even if the race hasn't moved? I understand that bigger build can move the race. Its a 2014 with a "mild" 124 build. I beat on it so could I have caused this or am I just lucky?
2014 Ultra Limited. 124 S&S kit , V&H Powerduals .Reinharts and alot or other do

C-Cat

Happened to me also. This is what I used. I have them on both of my bikes.
https://catalog.zodiac.nl/en/08-primary/primary-housing-covers/s-s-inner-primary-bearing-race-2528
124ci. 07 Streetbob 161/145
110ci. '11 Roadglide  129/127

smoserx1

Well since you use shockproof you know the shifter shaft, the large transmission seal, quad ring (if your bike uses one) and 5th (maybe 6th) gear main shaft seal are OK otherwise you would see color from leaking transmission lube.  The first time I pulled my IPB race the bike has 75K on it and it had not walked.  The next two times it walked a little and the last time it walked badly into the 5th gear main shaft seal.  It took 200K miles to reach this point (and I finally installed an S&S race then), so it does seem the more times a race is installed and removed the more likely it is to walk.  That makes sense to me as you probably wear the mainshaft a little during removal/installation, and some races might have looser tolerance which could make it walk easier (I always used a new one).  I would probably leave it alone if there is room to get the horseshoe part of the remover behind the race and replace it with the S&S after you remove the OEM one when needed.  Your leak appears to be from the primary and not the transmission so no need to remove pulley or race now just to fix the leak.

les

Your transmission mainshaft should already have a lip that stops the stock race from moving in.  My 2011 Road King did, so guessing your 2014 does.  I'm thinking that all the cruise drive trannys have the mainshaft that has the lip.

Coyote

Quote from: les on May 24, 2021, 08:57:54 AM
Your transmission mainshaft should already have a lip that stops the stock race from moving in.  My 2011 Road King did, so guessing your 2014 does.  I'm thinking that all the cruise drive trannys have the mainshaft that has the lip.

I don't think so. There's nothing keeping the race from walking in on any 6spd I've seen.

les

2011 Touring Service Manual, Page 5-12:

Installation:

Step 1:  "See Figure 5-23. Slide bearing inner race (1) onto main-shaft."

"Note:  Extension shaft has left-handed threads."

Step 5:  "Tighten nut (6) while holding extension shaft stationary with wrench on flats (3) at end of screw threads.  Press race onto shaft until edge of race contacts step on shaft."

les

I used the term "lip" in my previous posting, but should have used the term "step".  Sorry.

Coyote

They are just telling you when to stop pressing on the race. There is nothing to keep the race in place (if you're using a stock race)

les

Quote from: Coyote on May 24, 2021, 09:35:50 AM
They are just telling you when to stop pressing on the race. There is nothing to keep the race in place (if you're using a stock race)

When I've done this first hand on my 2011, I've experienced the "step" on the main-shaft.  It brings the race to a stop when you're pressing it in.  It's different on the five speed where the SM tells you to leave a .100" gap between the race and the main drive gear, because the five speeds don't have this "step".

Ohio HD

If there were a step on the six speed to stop the race. Why do they walk inward anyway? I'll take a photo of a six speed shaft later. No stop that I recall.

les

No need for a picture.  But now I'm scratching my head about what I've seen and what's in the SM.

Hybredhog

    I was chasing a leak from my inner primary for a while on my '02 fxdxt with a 124", and it was driving me crazy when it only leaked on hard runs & never as a 95". I've done the S&S race, years ago, along with other mods. I eventually was dinking around with an air dart checking pressures & breathing, It would only leak primary fluid, and not the shock proof. when I pressured up the primary, it was barely getting out the tranny vent, and when I tried blowing though just the main shaft with the pushrod in it, it was laboring. So I kind of came to the conclusion that the primary was pressurizing under heavy loads/heat, due to the thick shock proof. My solution was 2 fold, a small vent hole/ tube into a catch can up by the starter shaft bendix area to keep it from getting splashed by the ring gear. Also I grounded a light flat the length of the clutch push rod to allow more venting room (mill & grinding stone slowly). It's been working since. Some one was making a seal or something for the pushrod, I felt that wouldn't work in my case?
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH


Coyote

This pic is from on 07 bike (6spd). You can see that the main shaft is tapered up but the OEM race is not tapered so it can walk inwards. On my 2011 Ultra, I had to dremel cut and chisel the race off after it walked in.


FSG

Quote from: les on May 24, 2021, 09:42:50 AM
Quote from: Coyote on May 24, 2021, 09:35:50 AM
They are just telling you when to stop pressing on the race. There is nothing to keep the race in place (if you're using a stock race)

When I've done this first hand on my 2011, I've experienced the "step" on the main-shaft.  It brings the race to a stop when you're pressing it in.  It's different on the five speed where the SM tells you to leave a .100" gap between the race and the main drive gear, because the five speeds don't have this "step".

you're not dreaming   :SM:   

The HD released a Kit to upgrade the 06's & '07s to the latest mainshaft used in '08 and later trannies, there is a slight step,  the kit came out around '09/'10 or so.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30244.msg306607.html#msg306607


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,91403.msg1052907.html#msg1052907

Coyote

I wonder when they actually started using it. The HD SIP parts list for a 2011 touring bike shows this race is used.

34091-08   BEARING, inner race

I have some of those in my shop supplies and it has no lip on it. I have a new one, in the bag, I can take a pic of.

Or is the step behind the race?

Coyote


les

So, let's get back to guesscrazy's situation...

When you take the left side of your bike off, you'll be able to (if you look closely) see if your main-shaft has a step.  If it does, then the OEM race should work for you just fine.  It did on my 124".

Ohio HD

So the memory is the first thing to go. I can't remember what's second....

This 2013 transmission does have a step. My two earlier six speeds do not.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,107243.msg1275468.html#msg1275468


C-Cat

2011 Road Glide no step. That's a Stock Harley race, the box is what replaced it.
124ci. 07 Streetbob 161/145
110ci. '11 Roadglide  129/127

FSG

Quote from: C-Cat on May 26, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
2011 Road Glide no step

the STEP referred to is on the transmission mainshaft

the S&S Races have a taper on their inside at one end, it will only go on to the mainshaft one way and it's the taper on the mainshaft that stops them going on too far

the HD Race has no taper and on later mainshafts it's the step that stops them walking








Coyote

Yes, that's the main shaft I've always seen and every HD race can walk on it. If there's something HD came out with later, I've not seen it.   :nix:

guesscrazy

Got my inner primary gasket kit order, a Jims tool and S&S race coming. Will break it down Thursday and should be riding next weekend if that all it needs. I did this job in 2007 on my 2001 RoadKing but forgot the details.
2014 Ultra Limited. 124 S&S kit , V&H Powerduals .Reinharts and alot or other do

jmorton10

The race definitely walked on the stock 6 speed in my 2007 RK. That was no big deal as the tranny was blown up anyway.

Now, my current setup is a Baker Grudgebox 6 sp. with the S&S race.



~John
HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

FSG


guesscrazy

Quote from: jmorton10 on June 01, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
The race definitely walked on the stock 6 speed in my 2007 RK. That was no big deal as the tranny was blown up anyway.

Now, my current setup is a Baker Grudgebox 6 sp. with the S&S race.



~John
I should have put on the S&S race when it was apart for the 124 upgrade in 2019.
2014 Ultra Limited. 124 S&S kit , V&H Powerduals .Reinharts and alot or other do

jmorton10

HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

FSG


les

Quote from: guesscrazy on June 01, 2021, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: jmorton10 on June 01, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
The race definitely walked on the stock 6 speed in my 2007 RK. That was no big deal as the tranny was blown up anyway.

Now, my current setup is a Baker Grudgebox 6 sp. with the S&S race.



~John
I should have put on the S&S race when it was apart for the 124 upgrade in 2019.

Why?  The bike is a 2014 that has the shoulder on the main-shaft, right?

RoadKingKohn

If your bearing race has walked in it could have damaged your main shaft seal 12035B (number might be different on a 2014). That is what happened on my 2005 FLHRCI.

smoserx1

QuoteIf your bearing race has walked in it could have damaged your main shaft seal 12035B (number might be different on a 2014). That is what happened on my 2005 FLHRCI.

Yes that is the mainshaft 5th gear seal, and it fooled me the first time I tried to fix what I thought was a primary leak.  It had failed on its own.  The other time was a race walking issue.  The race completely crushed the metal part of that seal almost flat and it took me what seemed like forever to get the ruined seal out.  That was after doing the dremmel tool/chisel procedure on the old race, and it finally convinced me to buy the S&S race with the taper.

billbuilds

Quote from: les on June 03, 2021, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: guesscrazy on June 01, 2021, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: jmorton10 on June 01, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
The race definitely walked on the stock 6 speed in my 2007 RK. That was no big deal as the tranny was blown up anyway.

Now, my current setup is a Baker Grudgebox 6 sp. with the S&S race.



~John
I should have put on the S&S race when it was apart for the 124 upgrade in 2019.

Why?  The bike is a 2014 that has the shoulder on the main-shaft, right?


      Because, as Coyote pointed out, the stock HD races do not have the taper on the one end that the S&S races do. So despite the fact that the later mainshafts have the taper on them the stock races can still walk. 

les

Quote from: billbuilds on June 07, 2021, 03:38:39 AM
Quote from: les on June 03, 2021, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: guesscrazy on June 01, 2021, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: jmorton10 on June 01, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
The race definitely walked on the stock 6 speed in my 2007 RK. That was no big deal as the tranny was blown up anyway.

Now, my current setup is a Baker Grudgebox 6 sp. with the S&S race.



~John
I should have put on the S&S race when it was apart for the 124 upgrade in 2019.

Why?  The bike is a 2014 that has the shoulder on the main-shaft, right?


      Because, as Coyote pointed out, the stock HD races do not have the taper on the one end that the S&S races do. So despite the fact that the later mainshafts have the taper on them the stock races can still walk.

Coyote is talking about a 2007 transmission.  The stock race can't walk in over the shoulder of your 2014.

billbuilds

Quote from: Coyote on May 26, 2021, 06:58:40 PM
Yes, that's the main shaft I've always seen and every HD race can walk on it. If there's something HD came out with later, I've not seen it.   :nix:

     Here's what Coyote said. I don't have the 2014, that's the OP. I have a 2011.  Bill

billbuilds

     I did a little more looking into this and ended up calling S&S tech to get some clarification. There are two inner primary races available that are specifically designed to not walk on the mainshaft. The 56-5089 is for 91-06 5 & 6 speeds. It has a very subtle inner taper on one that prevents it from walking. You may well need calipers to discern which end is which. The other is 560-0241. It's for 08 and up six speeds and it has a noticable internal taper which acts as a stop when it contacts the mainshaft taper. There is no offering for the oddball 06 Dynas and 07 baggers. Thanks to FSG for the excellent photo highlighting how the 560-0241   
interfaces with the mainshaft.

les

So to be clear, guesscrazy's 2014 has the shoulder on the main-shaft (nothing to do with the race) just like my previous bike 2011 Road King which prohibits the OEM race from walking in, right?  And this matches what's written in the service manual and what we heard on the youtube video.

billbuilds

     According to Ronnie's both the 2011 and 2014 touring models use the same output shaft which is 35467-06C. This shaft has the taper. The 2011 SM is telling you to press the stock  race on to a certain point. This is just the point on the shaft where the taper meets the edge of the bearing race. There is nothing to keep the stock race from moving in/walking and Coyote has already replied to you with that fact.  This is why S&S came up with the race(s) that they did. If you have the stock race in there and you have a 124 then you really need to give some serious thought into putting the S&S race in there. Please do yourself a favor and give S&S a call @ 608-627-1497.  After all, I'm a nobody. Maybe one of their tech service guys can convince you.

14Frisco

Perhaps of interest -

TT329, 2007 Transmission Mainshaft and Race Running Change, describes when the mainshaft changed (5/30/2007) and what the changes were. TT329 can be found in the Tech Tips section.

The 35467-06A kit instructions referenced can be found at 6 SPEED TRANSMISSION MAINSHAFT KIT.

The 35467-06C kit instructions can be found at 6-SPEED TRANSMISSION MAINSHAFT KIT.


FSG


les

Quote from: billbuilds on June 09, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
     According to Ronnie's both the 2011 and 2014 touring models use the same output shaft which is 35467-06C. This shaft has the taper. The 2011 SM is telling you to press the stock  race on to a certain point. This is just the point on the shaft where the taper meets the edge of the bearing race. There is nothing to keep the stock race from moving in/walking and Coyote has already replied to you with that fact.  This is why S&S came up with the race(s) that they did. If you have the stock race in there and you have a 124 then you really need to give some serious thought into putting the S&S race in there. Please do yourself a favor and give S&S a call @ 608-627-1497.  After all, I'm a nobody. Maybe one of their tech service guys can convince you.

Ok, I'll try again.  Look at post #18 that Ohio posted and the picture.  It shows a picture of the shoulder/step, which is 13 thou bigger in diameter.  This is the what I'm talking about.  This is what the SM says to press the race up to, which stops the race from being pressed on any further and also prevents the race from walking in.

I've used a lot of S&S races.  I've even have a claw wrench to torque them down to the proper torque.  But I discovered on my 2011 124" I didn't need the S&S race because the OEM race stops dead on that shoulder when I'm pressing it on.  If I count right, there's been about a half a dozen pieces of material evidence demonstrating the existence of the main-shaft shoulder.  Even a youtube of a dude who's pretty knowledgeable about the bikes we ride and work on.

billbuilds

June 10, 2021, 02:12:47 AM #40 Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:28:48 AM by billbuilds
    Yes I've seen Kevin Baxter's video several times. It would have been nice if he would have been more specific as to when HD made the change to the mainshafts and added the step. Coyote stated that his 2011 six speed did not have a step. C-Cat stated the same about his 2011. Ohio HD asks "If there were a step on the six speed to stop the race. Why do they walk inward anyway?"  Yet you state that your 2011 has a step. I checked out the Tech Tip section and do not see mention of when this step was added. I am wondering if my 2011 has a step and not wanting to find out the hard way. I have to say that this is one of the most confusing subjects I've run into on this site. I don't mean to butt heads with you, Les. Just trying to wrap my head around this one.


les

Quote from: billbuilds on June 10, 2021, 02:12:47 AM
    Yes I've seen Kevin Baxter's video several times. It would have been nice if he would have been more specific as to when HD made the change to the mainshafts and added the step. Coyote stated that his 2011 six speed did not have a step. C-Cat stated the same about his 2011. Ohio HD asks "If there were a step on the six speed to stop the race. Why do they walk inward anyway?"  Yet you state that your 2011 has a step. I checked out the Tech Tip section and do not see mention of when this step was added. I am wondering if my 2011 has a step and not wanting to find out the hard way. I have to say that this is one of the most confusing subjects I've run into on this site. I don't mean to butt heads with you, Les. Just trying to wrap my head around this one.

I understand and not taking it as butting heads.  The problem with the race walking is an important one to me too.

billbuilds

     I should really clarify something I said about TT329. It states that the running change in mainshaft diameter and bearing race ID was made after 5/30/2007.  Is also talks about the addition of a machined step on the mainshaft. So I'm wondering why two people posted that their 2011 mainshaft did not have a step and that their bearing race walked in. This is the part of this discussion that has confused me the most. I am obviously missing something so please feel free to whack me up the side of the head and straighten me out.  I hate to rip mine apart if I don't have to yet in speaking with S&S tech yesterday he said not to wait to long to remove the stock race and install one of theirs. And my apology to the OP for hijacking your thread. Bill

FSG

Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2015, 12:33:15 AM
As Ron said, pretty common and as MAX said crappy shaft. 

Zoot didn't you do a chain conversion to an 06 or 07 Dyna?  The MoCo has a Mainshaft Upgrade Kit for the early 6 speeds which contains the latest mainshaft with the step to prevent the IPB Race from walking.

Quote from: FSG on July 02, 2015, 01:46:28 AM
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 01, 2015, 06:29:16 AM
FSG , would you happen to have the part # for that mainshaft upgrade kit ?

Kit Number   35467-06B

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Service/isheets/-J04678.pdf

FSG

here's a pic of the mainshaft in Kit 35467-06B

refer destructions -j04678


FSG

Quote from: FSG on June 04, 2016, 12:37:23 AM
being that it's a '10 model it should have the mainshaft with the step to prevent the IPB Race walking, are you able to measure the step?

[attach=0,msg1052907]

Quote from: masstch on June 04, 2016, 07:42:06 AM
Quote from: FSG on June 04, 2016, 12:37:23 AM
being that it's a '10 model it should have the mainshaft with the step to prevent the IPB Race walking, are you able to measure the step?


It has the step, 0.977 then steps to 0.985


billbuilds

    FSG,  I see now :idea:  and I really appreciate your time. Thanks for your patience with me.  Bill

les

Quote from: billbuilds on June 10, 2021, 11:33:15 AM
    FSG,  I see now :idea:  and I really appreciate your time. Thanks for your patience with me.  Bill

You're welcome.

billbuilds

     Sorry Les, should ave included you too in the thanks. Much aappreciated.  :up: