Death of a lithium ion battery

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Was in the garage last weekend tinkering with stuff, turned the bike on ACC to have some tunes. Last time I rode it was maybe 3 weeks ago & it's been on the tender since. (And was still on it). After maybe 15 minutes the music just stopped. Walked over to the bike & the "infotainment system" was dead. ^**%$ great I thought, that's going to cost me. Then I noticed the in dash volt meter was @ 0 volts.  So I switched it off & left it on the tender until fully charged, again.

Then...

https://vimeo.com/557852216/a95b303d60

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3 years. On the one hand that's not really bad life but OTOH no better than an AGM battery. It DID spin the 220 CCP engine like a minibike while it lasted. What they say about "they just die with no warning" is true. At least it happened in the garage.

Dr. Phil has a new AG Reset unit en route 

[FXDBI]

Out of interest what tender did you have on it? Was it a specified lithium unit?   Bob

[CndUltra88]

Out of interest what tender did you have on it? Was it a specified lithium unit?   Bob

From the Vimeo clip linked it (battery tender) is a G3500 NOCO Genius tender and is Lithium capable.
My Shorai Lithium Iron battery is going on three years of me owning the bike .
I have no previous history with this battery as it was on the fuggly when I bought the bike.
She turns the bike over slowly  and the speeds up on the third revolution .
From the oem volt meter she is charging close to 14volts while clipping along at 100Kmh...well even at city speeds of 30Kmh to 50Kmh.
Guess I am going to have to pay close attention this summer.
Rob

[Deye76]

"they just die with no warning"
The AGM's I've had did the same. 

[PoorUB]

All my AGM's died slowly, in fact, slow enough I swapped them out before I got stranded. I could tell, the engine didn't crank as fast, or if it didn't start on the first try, the second try was very weak. I sure could tell the difference when I dropped in a new battery.

[Jim Bronson]

All my AGM's died slowly, in fact, slow enough I swapped them out before I got stranded. I could tell, the engine didn't crank as fast, or if it didn't start on the first try, the second try was very weak. I sure could tell the difference when I dropped in a new battery.

Mine too, but I suppose they can die suddenly of not maintained properly.

[jmorton10]

I have an AntiGravity lithium ATX that is on its 5th year & still spins my HC 124 like the plugs are out. I keep it on a special tender that I bought along with the battery.

They just had a pretty good sale going on so I bought another one to have a spare. I will install the new one & keep the 5 year old as a spare.

~John

[kd]

Dr. Phil has a new AG Reset unit en route 

I think that's part of the key to long life.  The AG has a management system that turns the battery off before it gets to that critical death range.  The restart un it has a reset button and the one I have resets if you touch 12 volts to it.  Even with a small wire will do it. It doesn't need to be jumped.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Dr. Phil has a new AG Reset unit en route 

I think that's part of the key to long life.  The AG has a management system that turns the battery off before it gets to that critical death range.  The restart un it has a reset button and the one I have resets if you touch 12 volts to it.  Even with a small wire will do it. It doesn't need to be jumped.

The one you just touch a wire to.... is that an AG model?

[kd]

Yes.  I couldn't stand it and bought the 970 CCA touring battery.  Instead of the restart device, they left those circuits out and used the space for more power capacity.  It still has the battery management system but is manual restart (exciting the circuit to wake it back up). It shuts itself off if you leave something on and before the voltage drops too low. In the restart, there is a power supply to do that so it would be much more convenient.  Some of the automotive versions use a remote control fob, but for some reason during production of the first versions only a reset button was available in the M/C battery version.  Because you still have to lift the seat to access the button. I chose the other version because it can be excited by touching the starter stud with a positive 12V hit.  I did get a great deal on the battery so that helped.  The 970 CCA AG unit is the more pricy version. It does have longer warranty and the company has helped out many HTT members in the past. I did suggest to the president (at SEMA) that they rethink the remote for M/C due to access issues to push the reset button.

That said, I can't believe how high the cranking voltage is on start-up. (approx 11V w/ 11.3:1 120 cu in) I have an AG battery tracking device on it that is blue tooth to my phone.  It saves 30 days of run, crank, charge or other use events.  I have even used it to confirm where I was at a certain time and hadn't checked my watch. LOL  It showed me a shut down and then restart.

[smoserx1]

"they just die with no warning"
The AGM's I've had did the same.

Ditto that, two AGMs I have owned died suddenly without any warning whatsoever and I have had 2 old style car batteries (the types you add water to did the same) many years ago when that was all there was.  It can happen to any type.  Most of them, including the AGMs died slowly with plenty of warning.  My last AGM that died suddenly was only about a month old (I did get a full refund). It would show 12.6 volts no load but turn the key so a normal load was on it and it goes to 0.5 volts.  Remove the load and after a few  seconds it's back to 12.6.  Sorry about your lithium.  Seeing how that are advertised to last much longer and cost 2-3 times as much I would say you got did not get a good deal.

[Appowner]

A lot of lithiums are used in my other hobby of radio controlled airplanes.  I have often heard that they have 1000 charge/discharge cycles in them and then they die.  I've also heard that as soon as 500 cycles you can see performance changes in them.  I wonder if that holds true for the car/bike batteries and just what constitutes a charge/discharge cycle?

[motorhogman]

All my AGM's died slowly, in fact, slow enough I swapped them out before I got stranded. I could tell, the engine didn't crank as fast, or if it didn't start on the first try, the second try was very weak. I sure could tell the difference when I dropped in a new battery.

Same here. Always have had a warning.

[Deye76]

 Guess because I keep them on a tender, they start fine when leaving home, then heat soaked barely turn over.  By then it's too late.

[kouack]

Guess because I keep them on a tender, they start fine when leaving home, then heat soaked barely turn over.  By then it's too late.

Basically same story for me too. always on a tender, went for a ride and barely started heat soaked! I replaced the battery once at home. The second AGM did not started the bike this spring was fully charged. Both did 3 years! I tried an Odyssey battery this years (expensive) hope I'll have better luck!

[tomcat64]

I don't get it, my AGM's (HD) have all lasted at least 5 years, as a matter of fact my 2014 FLHXS with a stage 5 110 still had the factory battery in it last summer and it was starting the bike just fine, I replaced it before I went out west as I figured it would give up the ghost somewhere in the middle of Montana and I'd be screwed. I do put them on a tender in the winter, and all of my bike are in Non-heated storage, -20+ at times here in MN!

[jmorton10]

Yes.  I couldn't stand it and bought the 970 CCA touring battery.  Instead of the restart device, they left those circuits out and used the space for more power capacity.

Same here.  I bought the ATX 30-HD. My 5 year old battery is the 780 CCA YTX-20 & I figured if that one lasted as well as it did the 970 CCA should be awesome.

I wasn't planning on buying a new battery as the old one was still working perfect, but when it was on sale for almost $100.00 off I figured it was a good time to buy a new one.

~John

[Big Cahuna]

Lasts fall I went on a ride after pulling my bike out and removing the Tender. The light was green stating it was good to go. It started 4 times without any problem. Then for start no 5 for the day after riding 60 miles from the last starting point, all the bike would do is tick. I couldn't get it to kick, not even with a jump. I was thinking maybe the starter was fried, because the battery was reading good on the tender. I bought another battery from the same place I got my old one from. It had a slightly larger capacity. Old one was 26 amp 400 CCA's, new one was 30 amp hr, 420 CCA's. it cost the same as my old one. I got 6 years out of the old battery, I'm hoping to get the same from the new one. My bike starts like it's warmed up, even after sitting outside in a unheated garage for a week in winter. I a believer in putting the biggest battery that will fit in my bikes. I've tried Harley's brand batteries, and can't get more then 2 1/2 years out of one.  Mine also costs alot less then Harley's at $104 shipped to my door.,,,

[motorhogman]

Lasts fall I went on a ride after pulling my bike out and removing the Tender. The light was green stating it was good to go. It started 4 times without any problem. Then for start no 5 for the day after riding 60 miles from the last starting point, all the bike would do is tick. I couldn't get it to kick, not even with a jump. I was thinking maybe the starter was fried, because the battery was reading good on the tender. I bought another battery from the same place I got my old one from. It had a slightly larger capacity. Old one was 26 amp 400 CCA's, new one was 30 amp hr, 420 CCA's. it cost the same as my old one. I got 6 years out of the old battery, I'm hoping to get the same from the new one. My bike starts like it's warmed up, even after sitting outside in a unheated garage for a week in winter. I a believer in putting the biggest battery that will fit in my bikes. I've tried Harley's brand batteries, and can't get more then 2 1/2 years out of one.  Mine also costs alot less then Harley's at $104 shipped to my door.,,,

Good deal !  I just put a new Battery Mart Mega Crank (440 Cranking amps)  in my 01 FLHT. Out of the box 12.92 V. Put it on my charger maintainer a couple of hours before installing.  Spins my little 88 incher like the plugs are out..$105.00 delivered.  2 day shipping.. So far so good..

[NCHeritage07]

A lot of lithiums are used in my other hobby of radio controlled airplanes.  I have often heard that they have 1000 charge/discharge cycles in them and then they die.  I've also heard that as soon as 500 cycles you can see performance changes in them.  I wonder if that holds true for the car/bike batteries and just what constitutes a charge/discharge cycle?

In the RC world the batteries are Lithium Polymer instead of Lithium Iron Phosphate.  I am neither a chemist of battery expert but, as I understand it, the LiPo is king in terms of current(energy) delivery but is more likely to "go postal" on you if its mis-handled.  I am a ground-based RCer and I haver heard and seen many Lipo horror stories but I have not experienced and major failures.  In fact, when one of my packs stops performing like it did when new I have attempted somewhat of a Viking funeral.  I charged them fully then clamped the pos and neg terminals and tossed them in a safe place.  These are already under-performing but they only swelled and smoked - no real excitement.  I healthy/new pack may offer different results.  BTW, this is not a common practice but I had to satisfy my curiousity - and I am not about to destroy a good battery pack.  I assume all batteries will degrade over time but LiPo in RCs are treated differently than our MC batteries.  The RC batteries are almost always discharged to their minimum safe voltage.  This likely effects their life-span.  Discharging to lower voltage consistently will shorten their life according to the experts.  They also degrade from being stored at full charge - I haven't heard of that with other lithium based batteries.  I just bought some new Milwaukee 18v power tools and they arrived near full charge.  New Lipo for RCs will arrive at 1/2 charge.

I found this thread becaus my 2 yr old X-rated battery has failed to start the bike.  It did give me warnings in the form of weak/slow starts but now it only turns once or twice when fresh off the charger.  I am tempted by lithium but even anti-gravity claim "up to twice the life" of lead/acid.  Twice the life but 4X the price doesn't make sense for me to make the jump.  Plus AG doesn't recommend the restart batteries for big twins and their battery without restart is actually more expensive.  I am probably going with another AGM at this point but my next one could be newer tech.

[Jim Bronson]

I played around with RC aircraft for a while, and I recall the warnings about charging the batteries. Never charge them overnight unless you check your smoke detector first, and always keep the charger and battery well clear of any flammable materials. They get very hot while charging.

I had an X-Rated battery for a couple of years, and it never did perform well. I recently replaced it with a Mega Crank that has a much lower CCA, and it cranks great every time.

[NCHeritage07]

My Lipo pack barely gain any heat while charging but the old NiCd and NiMH would always come off the charger somewhere between warm and hot depending on the charge rate.  If you search youtube for lipo fires you will see that they can be destructive.  I have never heard of other lithium-based batteries being dangerous in the same way.

I got 2 good years out of my last X-rated so I went ahead and ordered another.  2 yrs is nothing to brag about but it seems to be the norm from other owners.  I didn't tender my old one that often but my winters are relatively mild so it never sits for long periods.  I will try pluggin in more often with this one and see if I can get a little more out of it.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

  Twice the life but 4X the price doesn't make sense for me to make the jump.  Plus AG doesn't recommend the restart batteries for big twins and their battery without restart is actually more expensive.  I am probably going with another AGM at this point but my next one could be newer tech.

First I've heard of this... any link to that info?

Thanks

[kd]

  Twice the life but 4X the price doesn't make sense for me to make the jump.  Plus AG doesn't recommend the restart batteries for big twins and their battery without restart is actually more expensive.  I am probably going with another AGM at this point but my next one could be newer tech.

First I've heard of this... any link to that info?

Thanks

This is how I have come to understand it and it is somewhat stated on their web site.

The restart battery (and other AG batteries) have a BMS (battery management system) that shuts the battery off if it dips below  a preset range.  With the restart battery when that occurs you press the button and the restart system excites the BMS to reactivate the battery and use the reserve power to effect a restart.  Their testing seems to have shown them that large hot rodded Vtwins that are out there these days can (for example on a hot start at the pumps) cause the engine to do a heavy draw on the first crank and switch the battery off.  (Also leaving the switch on and the other situations will be protected as normal.)  I know there are many that do use it successfully but I expect they also have compression releases and use them.   

The other series (recommended) like the ATX-30 HD also has BMS but it is set lower so it is not effected so easily and will generally not be effected with hot start like situations.  Also, the ATX-30 HD is reactivated by simply exciting the battery with a 12V "signal".  Simply touching 12Volts to the starter lug for example will reset the battery. This will do what the internal system of the restart does when you push the button but uses the reserve battery voltage to perform a restart.  Remember that this is a 970 CCA and the OEM battery is 1/3 of that so it will have plenty of reserve to start the bike under normal conditions.  In this battery the BMS is set lower to catch it in time to be able to recharge it if you were to leave your switch on or stereo etc.  It ignores that quick dip type situation like I described with hot starts. 

Finally, I have an AG Battery Tracker attached to the ATX-30 HD I use on my 11.3:1, 4 5/8 stroke, 120 " engine with ACR's. (I also have security, clock, LoJac tracking) They are inexpensive and I wanted to follow what happens with my lithium battery.  After a day of starting and stopping, fueling up etc. I will check it on my phone (bluetooth)  and find with such high CCA it barely drops under 11V when cranking to restart it.   I expect that the reason others are not experiencing problems with the restart is the 880 cranking amps are more than 2X the OEM battery and very efficient with ACR's.

I wanted the re-start battery and knew it was in development from conversations with the president of the company Scott.  I waited for it before going lithium because it was going to have a remote control reset button.  It only went on the auto batteries when it came out.    I was told how easy it was to call the regular battery back to life by touching it with 12V so I went that way.  The restart will mean  taking the seat off to push the button.

The AG website has been recently updated and you will find what I said on there in some fashion.  It is fairly detailed and requires some looking around.  If you call them you will be able to have a real wholesome discussion with a tech.  Once they know your level of understanding in the discussion they do very well.  I got my info mostly from Scott on the phone and at SEMA and what I posted here is a Reader's Digest version of those discussions.

I will also say that I am totally satisfied with the performance of my ATX-30 HD and understand how the price makes people flinch.  I did get mine on sale so I saved a bunch there.  The performance level is so much higher, the warranty better, the service I have experienced with the company exemplary so I went that way.  I did not use the restart I wanted due to the ease of re-exciting with the XP-10 jumpstarter battery I usually carry on the road is easier than lifting the seat.   

I know it may sound like I'm a salesman for them buy I am not.  In short, my understanding is the recommendation is based on convenience. You can excite it from anywhere including a cigarette lighter or charge port connector.  The one thing I like is these are 4 post batteries and that leaves 2 posts to stack accessory hook-ups on (including a charge port  )

[NCHeritage07]

  Twice the life but 4X the price doesn't make sense for me to make the jump.  Plus AG doesn't recommend the restart batteries for big twins and their battery without restart is actually more expensive.  I am probably going with another AGM at this point but my next one could be newer tech.

First I've heard of this... any link to that info?

Thanks

https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atx20-rs/#my_popup
About 1/2 way down this page there is a "watch video" button.  I think it was in that video that he recommended the non-restart battery for big twins.  I can't watch it again at this time, my bandwidth is being used by my daughter's online class.

[kd]

That is Scott Schafer, President of AG.  He just said everything in my previous post but maybe in a more organized manner.  The one thing not mentioned is you use the same method to bring back the HD series batteries by touching 12V to the terminals (ie battery charger harness or simply touching the starter stud and ground).  It will likely be in another video somewhere on their site.

[itsafatboy]

So i got one of the AG batteries and after i installed i read somewhere i got the wrong one but this sure turns my 116" 11.3 comp bike over like its nothing, and its light and small so for a softail gives me more room for crap under seat, i do have it hooked to a battery tender lithium JR , when im not riding ,  so hopefully i didnt get to wrong of a battery,  so have a  question

1, should i use the tender to keep it charged full when storing or not?  reading they dont like to be at full charge when stored and also read they dont like to be under full charge when stored so whats up with that ,   

[Deye76]

I keep my AG on a tender always when not in use. Into year 2, and so far OK.