Shifter Pawl Spring attached to clutch cable end

[smoserx1]

Hey folks I hope I am not asking something already answered but recently I searched the archives about attaching the spring PN 33201-79 to the clutch cable end inside the ramp housing and obtained a NOS spring.  I looked at pictures FSG had posted and was ready to take things apart and install it but then I stopped and had a question.  Will this spring interfere with the dipstick?  I took my dipstick out and looked into the hole to see how close the cable was and it is not that far away.  Looks to me like the spring and dipstick might touch, but it is hard to tell just looking into the hole.  I know lots of folks with OEM dipsticks have cut the actual stick part off due to the issue with the stick fatiguing and breaking off (and that would definitely solve any interference issues), but years ago I replaced my OEM dipstick with a Baker item with a beefed up shoulder and I don't even have my OEM dipstick anymore.  I really don't want to have to amputate my Baker stick in case I install this spring and interference results, so I would just like some opinion whether or not it will be a problem.  Thanks in advance.

[FSG]

pretty sure it will .......  but I'd always cut the OEM dipstick anyway  .......  not sure I'd cut a Baker ........  perhaps someone has an old OEM laying around   

[Hossamania]

Once I change fluids and fill the tranny, I don't really check the level between changes, especially now that the leaks have been fixed. I cut my original stick off, seeing the wear and potential for breakage. I bought a second stick at a swap meet and use it to check levels, then replace it with cut unit.
Do you still have the original stick? You could cut it for use, then use the Baker to check when necessary.

[kd]

I have a Baker GrudgeBox in a 2011 OEM case (OEM dipstick) and just serviced it.  When I had the stick in hand I wiped it down and checked it for wear marks.  There were none.  I did not look into the hole to see if the spring was visible but did use a spring on the previous OEM transmission I blew up. Same dipstick.

[smoserx1]

Thank you folks for the replies so far.  I have looked at all the pics FSG posted, the measurements of the spring Ohio made and read the tech tips #19 that FSG posted.  I know this is not scientific but I measured the diameter of the Baker dipstick stem and found I had a screwdriver with a shank almost the exact same size...just a few thousands difference.  Inserting the screwdriver into the hole while trying to visually align and center it, it seems to clear the cable only 1/16 inch or so.  I tried this several times with the same result.  Seeing how the spring is almost a half inch in diameter it is hard to imagine there not being a potential for interference.  Tech tips 19 does not mention any issue, and maybe even if there is it is not a problem being in a well-oiled environment.   I won't know for sure until I take the cover off and install the spring and the dipstick so I can check for interference.  No Hoss, I don't have my OEM stick anymore.  I bought the Baker stick years ago when I first read of the issues with the OEM sticks breaking.  It is nice, pretty and high quality but it is not very good for checking lube levels unless you are using something  heavily colored like Shockproof.  With clear oils like I use you just can't see it on the stick (at least I can't).  The OEM stick had a matt finished flat section at the measurement end making it easy to read the oil level.  For years when I service the tranny I just fill the specified amount of oil (20-24 oz) and  called it a day since I couldn't read the Baker stick.  If it and the spring encroach I will just cut the stick off and make it into a plug. 

[kd]

Full disclosure, mine is not the Harley shovelhead transmission spring.  It's a jobber offering and measures .435 OD X 2.680 with .050 wire.  It works great and cost pennies.  It looks like it may give that extra clearance too.

[smoserx1]

Got my spring in!  And interestingly enough I did not have to slacken the cable to install it.

[attach=0,msg1387864]

[FSG]

you must have tension on the cable as the end of the inner ramp in the home position should be at the RED X

[smoserx1]

Thanx I see that...will check out today, exhaust is still off, also replacing cam shoes as well.

[nibroc]

good thread........

[smoserx1]

Well FSG while I had the exhaust removed I took the clutch release cover back off.  The cable did not seem to be under tension (I had installed the spring without altering the cable adjuster and I already had a small amount of free play before the spring install).  Anyway the slight bowing of the spring in the pic was a result of the spring encroaching on the dipstick, which was my original concern.  I tried adding slack to the cable adjuster to make the ramp coupling reside at about where you had marked the red X and temporarily reinstalled the cover.  That resulted in about half a lever worth of free play.  I removed the spring and put it back like it was.  The interesting thing to me is I have a 10 year old pic of the release cover when I was getting ready to change the cable and it in fact shows the ramp coupling in about the same position your red X.  The only thing I can figure is the original cable PN 28601-89 is no longer available and last time I had to change the cable (about a year ago) I  had to use PN 28667-00 which was labeled "all FLHT" or similar.  I just wonder if the superseded cable is slightly shorter resulting in the difference in the position of the ramp coupling?  Anyway thanks for your input on this.

[FSG]

well you'd think it'd be OK but I know first hand that getting it right on my Fatty wasn't that easy so opted for a Barnett Cable and left my collection of HD Clutch Cables for Softails and Tourers just hanging on the wall.

the free inner length on yours is too short ......  so with the reduced travel of the inner ramp how is you clutch operation







here's a good example of the inner cable being too long

[kd]

Do you have the adjustable sleeve on the outer like FSG's 3rd example for Big Twin 87 and up?

[smoserx1]

Do you have the adjustable sleeve on the outer like FSG's 3rd example for Big Twin 87 and up?

Yes, You are referring to the cable adjuster in the middle...the thing that resides under the accordion looking rubber boot?  Other bikes I have owned (Hondas) have had this at the cable end, usually near where it attaches to the hand lever.

Here is the 2010 picture of an older cable pn 38601-89 that I was about to replace. 
[attach=0,msg1388017]

I know this was the old cable because of the grime on the end where it enters the release cover and it was leaking oil out of where the metal part crimps to the jacket...that is why I replaced it, plus I was getting ready to do cam work.  I know pics can be deceiving but it does look like the ramp coupling is farther back toward the home position.  Anyway the clutch with the newest cable seems to work fine...it releases/engages about halfway through the lever travel.  The newest cable (38667-00) has been in the bike 14 months now.  I have put it back without the spring.  Yesterday I checked the tension on the cable by pushing the lever as far forward as it would go and sticking a flat screwdriver  through the filler hole and pressing on the cable...it deflected.  Then I pulled on the lever enough to get rid of the free play and repeated...no deflection.  Thanks folks!

[kd]

Yes, You are referring to the cable adjuster in the middle...the thing that resides under the accordion looking rubber boot?

If you can collapse (adjust to be shorter) that device you will effectively end up with a longer "free inner length" that FSG is describing.  That will allow the inner cable attachment point to reach the "red X" in the previous pic.  You will then have a normal or regular full swing on the actuator.  Right now if the resting point is less that the X you do not.

[smoserx1]

If you can collapse (adjust to be shorter) that device you will effectively end up with a longer "free inner length" that FSG is describing.  That will allow the inner cable attachment point to reach the "red X" in the previous pic.  You will then have a normal or regular full swing on the actuator.  Right now if the resting point is less that the X you do not.

I tried that already.  Collapsing the cable adjuster to approximately where the red x was resulted in at least half the clutch lever travel of free play, and that simply won't work.  When I adjust the cable to get 1/4-1/2 inch or so of free play at the very end of the hand lever, the ramp is in the position originally (past the red x).  Now here is a pic of my cable adjuster:
[attach=0]
This amount of adjustment results in a small amount of free play in the lever end, a friction zone approximately half way in the lever travel, no evidence of drag/creep/hard shifting/difficulty finding neutral...or possible slippage which would occur with maladjustment the other direction.  What it does result in is the ramp coupling not being at the red x location in the photo.  And as I mentioned before I still have slack in the cable with the hand lever all the way forward.  I mean if I understand the process, when you pull in the clutch lever the inner ramp rotates and moves to the left, then it contacts the outermost thrust washer on the oil slinger, gets that and the throwout bearing spinning then pushes the whole pushrod assembly to the left ultimately moving the pressure plate away and disengaging the clutch?  So I am kind of at a loss as to  what could be wrong when everything seems to be working, but I appreciate any input you guys have.

[koko3052]

What I'm thinking is that when you adjust so there is much slack at the lever, you are not adjusting the clutch thru the primary. That has to be done & then the lever adjustment.

[kd]

    It is evident that you are missing an important and first step in the clutch adjustment.  You need to follow the full procedure. Your pushrod adjustment at the clutch pressure plate will take up that slack.  Read up on the clutch adjustment procedure and follow those instructions.  First of all collapse the outer cable again to allow the cable to reach the X spot and still be slack. Set the pushrod at the primary as per the manual and you will get the lever to move back as you do that.  Then reset the adjuster barrel on the outer cable.  Following the OEM procedure should get you there.

[smoserx1]

Will do.  I was thinking that had to be the only thing left.  Thanks folks!

OK, I owe you guys a beer.   Adjusted the clutch per the SM.  Backed off 1/2 turn, reset cable free play.  Here is a pic of the cable adjuster now:
[attach=0,msg1388059]
Only about half the threads showing now.  However I am not about to take that exhaust back off again to check the position of that ramp coupling.  That is too much of a PIA to me!  thanx for all your help folks.

[Hossamania]

More importantly, how well does it work and feel now?

[smoserx1]

More importantly, how well does it work and feel now?

Hey Hoss, I ran the adjuster in till I got resistance and backed out 1/2 turn.  Feels about the same, if anything the friction zone has moved ever so slightly outward (toward the end of the lever travel).  I presume the difference in the visible cable adjuster threads from the 2 photos corresponds roughly to the relocation of the ramp in the relaxed position, but to completely verify that would require removal of the exhaust and release housing.  That will have to wait for another time.  I will keep my clutch adjusted per the SM procedure from now on, something I will admit I have not been doing.  KD, Koko and FSG picked right up on it and my hat is off to all of them.  I also changed cam chain shoes, lifters and studded the case at the 2 dowel locations while I had the exhaust off.  The stuff that came out looked pretty good (had about 70000 on it).  I am 69 years old now and every time I do this crap now it seems to hurt my worn out body more, but I will keep going long as I can.  Thanks again everyone.

[FSG]

    

[FSG]

I should add that with the FSG method of adjusting the clutch the user always knows where the ramps are 

[Hossamania]

You can move the friction zone a little closer to the bar by adjusting the cable a little bit, screw the cable adjuster in slightly, it should still disengage the clutch properly. Too far and the clutch will drag.