How deep into top triple tree can fork tubes be "cheated" to raise front end?

Started by Shadowbennie, June 23, 2021, 11:02:24 AM

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Shadowbennie

Weird question, I know. So to summarize the best I can......

In May 2020, I replaced the stock rear 12" shocks on my 2015 RGS with 13" RWD RS-1 reservoir shocks - took a trip to Arkansas, rode the hell out of the bike, but having upgraded the rear shocks, it revealed how terrible the stock front suspension is. So, me, being the "if it aint broke, fix it till it is" type - I bought myself a set of Legends Axeo front cartridges - standard length.

Put those in sometime around July 2020 - initial thought was "wow, way more control with these cartridges!" - BUT the front end felt "twitchy", and I felt like the bike liked to do what I would call a "hula" when the suspension would load & unload in sweeping curves.

I chalked it up to me not being used to the handling of the cartridges. Actually rode Arkansas again in the fall of 2020, but this feeling of "not quite right/twitchy/hula" was still there, again, chalking it up to these drastic changes I've made to stock suspension, or me just not being used to it, and we were riding FAST through the Arkie curves!

I have finally decided that it shouldn't feel this way - the handling should feel planted in the curves, no wobble/hula, no chasing my line through the curve (twitchy steering), which I have experienced day-one since I've put in the Axeo's in the front.

Long story short, through input & feedback from Russ @ RWD (and others) that because the Axeo cartridges actually sag your front end approx. 3/4" lower than stock, coupled with an increase in rear height from the RWD shocks (12" stock to 13" RWD's - minus approx 1/2" sag), that I had possibly changed the rake & trail of the bike enough to create this "twitchy/unsettled" feeling.

Legends support also thinks there could be some incompatibility between brands (i.e. valving, etc) and said they suggest pairing the Axeo's with their rear Revo A shocks - but I'm not convinced this is really the root cause of the issue. Maybe it has some effect, but I don't know.

As an easy "low hanging fruit" suggestion, Russ @ RWD thought I could "cheat" my fork tubes lower (down) into my triple tree to basically try to get back some of the 3/4" in front height that I'd lost, regaining some of the rake/trail as much as I could to see if my handling would become less twitchy and get rid of some of the "swaying/wobble".

So I lowered my forks in the triple tree to the point where the top of the cartridge cap closest to the wheel is flush with the top of the upper TT clamp, the edge of the cap close to the rider is maybe recessed into the top clamp approx. 3/16" - which has indeed improved the handling, in fact, it is noticeable.

This brings me to my question - to even further adjust the rake/trail getting back to close to stock, how much further would you think I can safely lower the fork tubes into the top triple tree clamp? 1/8"? 1/4"? If at all?

I've checked my steering head fall away, and am within a reasonable range of spec (1-1.5 swings), and I'm planning on having my wheel bearings checked and probably replaced to completely rule those out. I'll put it up on a lift to confirm that my rear swing arm isn't a part of the problem as well, although it shouldn't be - only 80k on the bike AND I have an alloy art stabilizer which was installed thinking it would help with my handling problem, but the fact that there was demonstrated improvement by merely dropping my forks lower in the triple tree makes me think my handling issues are mostly rake/trail related.

Thoughts on this, or anything else I should be exploring?


mkd

fall away or wheel bearings being loose is the first thing i would check. when i didn't like my 05 eglide front end loading and unloading (too soft) the fork oil viscosity and amount of oil in the tubes makes a big difference in the way it felt when braking and cornering. too little of oil in forks makes them feel weak and could bottom them out. too much oil and they get stiff and are very bone jarring and hard on the hands and shoulders. all of the above i was able to control by having the correct amount of oil and the viscosity that worked for howi rode. the oil i blended so it went viscosity midway between type e stock oil and S E heavy . for me the stock oil was too light and the heavy was too stiff. it's a long story but one i was able to figure out.

smoserx1

Boy did I just learn something new because I did not think you could do that with a touring front end but apparently things have changed.  I would measure the depth of the fork tube clamping surface for the upper bracket and maybe lower the tube up to half that.  Any lower than that and I would be afraid of the internal forces from the pinch bolt getting out of balance and possibly causing distortion from the stresses of the now unused part of the clamping surface, maybe causing stress cracks in the metal???

Harley Pilot

A friend of mine machined extensions that
screw into the top of the fork tube to be able to raise the front of his Big Dog, don't know if that'd be an option for you.

PC_Hater

1" longer fork tubes would be the safest thing to do.
Can you get away with increasing the fork preload with longer spacers?
If you go for making an extension that screws into the top of the fork tube then you have effectively taken your half way decent triple tree design back to how it was up to 2007 or so. I have just spent about $1000 fitting the kit to drag the triple tree on my 1999 bike up to the same standard as yours! Noticeably better too.

Meanwhile... FLs have so much trail you can reduce it by a couple of inches before you get into what is considered the 'normal' range for other bikes!

The 'feel' is important too, if it feels twitchy to you it is not fun.
I had a go on a Buell when they came out, couldn't get on with the twitchy sportbike steering. Didn't buy one.
1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

kd

Quote from: Harley Pilot on June 23, 2021, 02:58:18 PM
A friend of mine machined extensions that
screw into the top of the fork tube to be able to raise the front
of his Big Dog, don't know if that'd be an option for you.

Known in the 60's and 70's as slugs.  My buddy had one let go on the road from flexing at the threads and went down breaking his back.  :dgust:  It's not a new idea and there is a reason that they are not commercially available.  :wink: Is it worth the cost of a couple of proper length fork tubes to end up in a wheel chair or dead?  You decide ...
KD

Admiral Akbar

You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: PC_Hater on June 23, 2021, 03:46:39 PM
1" longer fork tubes would be the safest thing to do.
Can you get away with increasing the fork preload with longer spacers?
If you go for making an extension that screws into the top of the fork tube then you have effectively taken your half way decent triple tree design back to how it was up to 2007 or so. I have just spent about $1000 fitting the kit to drag the triple tree on my 1999 bike up to the same standard as yours! Noticeably better too.

Meanwhile... FLs have so much trail you can reduce it by a couple of inches before you get into what is considered the 'normal' range for other bikes!

The 'feel' is important too, if it feels twitchy to you it is not fun.
I had a go on a Buell when they came out, couldn't get on with the twitchy sportbike steering. Didn't buy one.

With the Legends Axeo cartridges, you really can't add fork tube length, unless you get their +2 cartridge (they don't have a +1)- the standard length cartridge I got is designed for standard length tubes, but with their built-in sag, it just lowers the whole front end by 3/4" extra below stock.

Preload is only adjustable with a threaded collar - which I suppose I could increase the preload some more, but I think that would then make the front end ride quality unbearable and I'm not sure if it would even really affect the sag - these cartridges are quite firm, pretty jarring over small bumps and are just on the edge of being acceptable for day to day riding at the lowest preload setting for my weight.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 23, 2021, 05:58:06 PM
You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

I was under the impression that the swingarm components on 2009+ bikes aren't as susceptible to wear as the older bike since they have spherical bearings now, but an indy mechanic I've had work on my bike suggested that I should check for play in the swingarm to rule it out. While he said it's unlikely this is a root cause, it's not out of the question. I'm also going to have him replace the wheel bearings next week - also just to rule those out.

Tires are Dunlop AE's - less than 10k on them so they haven't squared off to the point where you get that "teeter" when cornering and riding the line between the flat spot on the tire and the sidewall - I have experienced that before so once that starts happening (I pretty much just run AE's) I usually start thinking about new tires.

hbkeith

this all started after frontend parts and shocks ? try 12" shocks

Hossamania

Quote from: hbkeith on June 24, 2021, 06:50:24 AM
this all started after frontend parts and shocks ? try 12" shocks

Kind of defeats the purpose of installing expensive good shocks to improve ride quality.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on June 24, 2021, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: hbkeith on June 24, 2021, 06:50:24 AM
this all started after frontend parts and shocks ? try 12" shocks

Kind of defeats the purpose of installing expensive good shocks to improve ride quality.

RWD almost never recommends their 12" shocks, and I agree with you Hoss, I don't want to give up the ride quality that the 13" shocks afford.

I'd rather sacrifice the Axeo cartridges than the RWD rear shocks.

HighLiner

I wonder if the 2" over cartridges still lose the same 3/4" in sag? 

Hossamania

I wondered that as well, that would put them right about where they need to be.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on June 24, 2021, 11:23:10 AM
I wondered that as well, that would put them right about where they need to be.

It might be close, maybe would put the front end about 3/4" high, unless the sag is greater on the +2's - unfortunate part about that is, then I'm springing for longer fork tubes I suppose AND a new set of cartridges. Then I actually would probably have to cheat the fork tubes higher in the TT to try to level it out.

I might be better served to get the standard length Ohlins 30mm cartridges from Big Bear Perf. at that point though, dollar for dollar.

Ugh or maybe I'll sell a kidney and just shell out the bucks for the Big Bear Performance Ohlins front/rear setup..... :emoGroan:

hbkeith

Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 24, 2021, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: hbkeith on June 24, 2021, 06:50:24 AM
this all started after frontend parts and shocks ? try 12" shocks

Kind of defeats the purpose of installing expensive good shocks to improve ride quality.

RWD almost never recommends their 12" shocks, and I agree with you Hoss, I don't want to give up the ride quality that the 13" shocks afford.

I'd rather sacrifice the Axeo cartridges than the RWD rear shocks.
Im saying , just to see if the diiferance in lenght makes it handle  better , its a free test to see if rake & trail is off isnt it

Shadowbennie

Quote from: hbkeith on June 25, 2021, 01:52:25 AM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 24, 2021, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: hbkeith on June 24, 2021, 06:50:24 AM
this all started after frontend parts and shocks ? try 12" shocks

Kind of defeats the purpose of installing expensive good shocks to improve ride quality.

RWD almost never recommends their 12" shocks, and I agree with you Hoss, I don't want to give up the ride quality that the 13" shocks afford.

I'd rather sacrifice the Axeo cartridges than the RWD rear shocks.
Im saying , just to see if the diiferance in lenght makes it handle  better , its a free test to see if rake & trail is off isnt it

Ah, point taken. I gave my stock HD 12" shocks to a buddy, maybe he'll let me swap 'em out for a day......

Admiral Akbar

Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 05:47:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 23, 2021, 05:58:06 PM
You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

I was under the impression that the swingarm components on 2009+ bikes aren't as susceptible to wear as the older bike since they have spherical bearings now, but an indy mechanic I've had work on my bike suggested that I should check for play in the swingarm to rule it out. While he said it's unlikely this is a root cause, it's not out of the question. I'm also going to have him replace the wheel bearings next week - also just to rule those out.

Tires are Dunlop AE's - less than 10k on them so they haven't squared off to the point where you get that "teeter" when cornering and riding the line between the flat spot on the tire and the sidewall - I have experienced that before so once that starts happening (I pretty much just run AE's) I usually start thinking about new tires.

Spherical bearings started in 2002.  The bearing and 2 spacers are the same back to that date.  They changed the pivot shaft sometime after 2010 (IIRC) probably to make it cheaper.  I've not measured the later shaft but early ones measure 0.749 and the hole in the spacer is 0.755 with the case being about the same.   Tightening them up and going to new rubbers helps.  Get all this stuff tight and my 07 egc handles better than my 17 rk.

FWIW shorter shock might help but it ain't the issue.

boggart

I had AXEO in my 14' ultra.  I did not experience what you are but I was never satisfied with the touring ride quality.  Was way too harsh.  I removed/sold and ultimately installed the pro-action fork kit.  Far superior to both AXEO and stock to me.  In between the two aftermarket systems I just rebuilt the stock forks with 20wt oil and it was far superior to stock.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 26, 2021, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 05:47:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 23, 2021, 05:58:06 PM
You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

I was under the impression that the swingarm components on 2009+ bikes aren't as susceptible to wear as the older bike since they have spherical bearings now, but an indy mechanic I've had work on my bike suggested that I should check for play in the swingarm to rule it out. While he said it's unlikely this is a root cause, it's not out of the question. I'm also going to have him replace the wheel bearings next week - also just to rule those out.

Tires are Dunlop AE's - less than 10k on them so they haven't squared off to the point where you get that "teeter" when cornering and riding the line between the flat spot on the tire and the sidewall - I have experienced that before so once that starts happening (I pretty much just run AE's) I usually start thinking about new tires.

Spherical bearings started in 2002.  The bearing and 2 spacers are the same back to that date.  They changed the pivot shaft sometime after 2010 (IIRC) probably to make it cheaper.  I've not measured the later shaft but early ones measure 0.749 and the hole in the spacer is 0.755 with the case being about the same.   Tightening them up and going to new rubbers helps.  Get all this stuff tight and my 07 egc handles better than my 17 rk.

FWIW shorter shock might help but it ain't the issue.


I actually checked the swingarm for play yesterday, seems very solid - very little to almost no discernable movement and I made sure to disconnect the alloy art stabilizer as well while doing this. I suppose I can't put the kind of forces that the bike can on it, but I guess if it was moving an 1/8" side to side, that would very much be a "eureka" moment - of course it couldn't be THAT easy!

I do have the swingarm components in a kit from v-twin mfg (rubber donuts, sleeves, bearings, & pivot shaft) as I was anticipating a change out in the event that the consensus pointed to that as being the source - maybe I'll see if my indy will do it anyway while he's doing the wheel bearings - again, just to rule out one more potential variable.

Looking more closely at the front forks & tree yesterday too, I don't think I'm going to try to cheat the fork tubes any lower into the upper tree - there isn't a lot of clamping area and it makes me nervous to try it. If I drop it another 1/8", that would put the riders-side of the top cap approx 1/2 way into the height of the top tree clamp - doesn't seem like that would be a good thing.

Admiral - you specifically mention that the shock height isn't the issue - are you convinced it's swingarm related, or what other variable would you lean toward?

Additional reference: I spoke with someone at Big Bear Performance late last week, and while of course they want to sell you their Ohlins front carts (which look like they're awesome BTW), he believes that due to the valving design of the Axeo cartridges, I'm actually getting cavitation, causing the handling issues.

I don't know.....is that even a plausible theory?


smoserx1

QuoteLooking more closely at the front forks & tree yesterday too, I don't think I'm going to try to cheat the fork tubes any lower into the upper tree - there isn't a lot of clamping area and it makes me nervous to try it. If I drop it another 1/8", that would put the riders-side of the top cap approx 1/2 way into the height of the top tree clamp - doesn't seem like that would be a good thing.

That was my concern initially.  Assuming the pinch bolt delivers clamping force evenly top to bottom, having your fork tube lowered half the clamp height would mean the bottom area would see opposition from the fork tube as normal, but the top half would not.  I was afraid the unopposed force of the pinch bolt might distort the top part of the clamping area, especially if you really romped down on the pinch bolts to compensate for the lost clamping effectiveness.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: smoserx1 on June 28, 2021, 12:29:46 PM
QuoteLooking more closely at the front forks & tree yesterday too, I don't think I'm going to try to cheat the fork tubes any lower into the upper tree - there isn't a lot of clamping area and it makes me nervous to try it. If I drop it another 1/8", that would put the riders-side of the top cap approx 1/2 way into the height of the top tree clamp - doesn't seem like that would be a good thing.

That was my concern initially.  Assuming the pinch bolt delivers clamping force evenly top to bottom, having your fork tube lowered half the clamp height would mean the bottom area would see opposition from the fork tube as normal, but the top half would not.  I was afraid the unopposed force of the pinch bolt might distort the top part of the clamping area, especially if you really romped down on the pinch bolts to compensate for the lost clamping effectiveness.

yep, your comment is what drove me to look at it a little more closely and take a couple of measurements. On to other options I guess - either swingarm components, wheel bearings, or maybe I just have to ditch the axeo's and get RWD cartridges for a matching system or go all-in and get the BBP Ohlins setup  :emoGroan:

Admiral Akbar

Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 28, 2021, 05:40:08 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 26, 2021, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 05:47:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 23, 2021, 05:58:06 PM
You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

I was under the impression that the swingarm components on 2009+ bikes aren't as susceptible to wear as the older bike since they have spherical bearings now, but an indy mechanic I've had work on my bike suggested that I should check for play in the swingarm to rule it out. While he said it's unlikely this is a root cause, it's not out of the question. I'm also going to have him replace the wheel bearings next week - also just to rule those out.

Tires are Dunlop AE's - less than 10k on them so they haven't squared off to the point where you get that "teeter" when cornering and riding the line between the flat spot on the tire and the sidewall - I have experienced that before so once that starts happening (I pretty much just run AE's) I usually start thinking about new tires.

Spherical bearings started in 2002.  The bearing and 2 spacers are the same back to that date.  They changed the pivot shaft sometime after 2010 (IIRC) probably to make it cheaper.  I've not measured the later shaft but early ones measure 0.749 and the hole in the spacer is 0.755 with the case being about the same.   Tightening them up and going to new rubbers helps.  Get all this stuff tight and my 07 egc handles better than my 17 rk.

FWIW shorter shock might help but it ain't the issue.


I actually checked the swingarm for play yesterday, seems very solid - very little to almost no discernable movement and I made sure to disconnect the alloy art stabilizer as well while doing this. I suppose I can't put the kind of forces that the bike can on it, but I guess if it was moving an 1/8" side to side, that would very much be a "eureka" moment - of course it couldn't be THAT easy!

I do have the swingarm components in a kit from v-twin mfg (rubber donuts, sleeves, bearings, & pivot shaft) as I was anticipating a change out in the event that the consensus pointed to that as being the source - maybe I'll see if my indy will do it anyway while he's doing the wheel bearings - again, just to rule out one more potential variable.

Looking more closely at the front forks & tree yesterday too, I don't think I'm going to try to cheat the fork tubes any lower into the upper tree - there isn't a lot of clamping area and it makes me nervous to try it. If I drop it another 1/8", that would put the riders-side of the top cap approx 1/2 way into the height of the top tree clamp - doesn't seem like that would be a good thing.

Admiral - you specifically mention that the shock height isn't the issue - are you convinced it's swingarm related, or what other variable would you lean toward?

Additional reference: I spoke with someone at Big Bear Performance late last week, and while of course they want to sell you their Ohlins front carts (which look like they're awesome BTW), he believes that due to the valving design of the Axeo cartridges, I'm actually getting cavitation, causing the handling issues.

I don't know.....is that even a plausible theory?

Just tugging on the swingarm doesn't mean the stuff is worn out.

The kit my be OK but you really need to check the clearance on the bushing to shaft.

Any looseness can be an issue. Swingarm is good place to look.

Axeo more than likely has no enough low speed damping and too light of springs.  Sounds like the sag is too much also. Why not increase preload. As it is later TC bagger fork only have 4 inches of travel stock.

kd

As it is later TC bagger fork only have 4 inches of travel stock.


And many baggers have that tell tale dent in the top of the front fender from coming down hard on a bump.   :embarrassed:
KD

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on July 05, 2021, 06:39:10 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 28, 2021, 05:40:08 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 26, 2021, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 24, 2021, 05:47:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 23, 2021, 05:58:06 PM
You got 80000 on the bike and haven't replaced the swingarm bushings and rubber donuts?  Big weak point is the pivot shaft to tranny fit. Find someone to tighten that up for you.

Some tires like C2s and Avons will square up and screw up handling if they are over 1/2 worn out.

I was under the impression that the swingarm components on 2009+ bikes aren't as susceptible to wear as the older bike since they have spherical bearings now, but an indy mechanic I've had work on my bike suggested that I should check for play in the swingarm to rule it out. While he said it's unlikely this is a root cause, it's not out of the question. I'm also going to have him replace the wheel bearings next week - also just to rule those out.

Tires are Dunlop AE's - less than 10k on them so they haven't squared off to the point where you get that "teeter" when cornering and riding the line between the flat spot on the tire and the sidewall - I have experienced that before so once that starts happening (I pretty much just run AE's) I usually start thinking about new tires.

Spherical bearings started in 2002.  The bearing and 2 spacers are the same back to that date.  They changed the pivot shaft sometime after 2010 (IIRC) probably to make it cheaper.  I've not measured the later shaft but early ones measure 0.749 and the hole in the spacer is 0.755 with the case being about the same.   Tightening them up and going to new rubbers helps.  Get all this stuff tight and my 07 egc handles better than my 17 rk.

FWIW shorter shock might help but it ain't the issue.


I actually checked the swingarm for play yesterday, seems very solid - very little to almost no discernable movement and I made sure to disconnect the alloy art stabilizer as well while doing this. I suppose I can't put the kind of forces that the bike can on it, but I guess if it was moving an 1/8" side to side, that would very much be a "eureka" moment - of course it couldn't be THAT easy!

I do have the swingarm components in a kit from v-twin mfg (rubber donuts, sleeves, bearings, & pivot shaft) as I was anticipating a change out in the event that the consensus pointed to that as being the source - maybe I'll see if my indy will do it anyway while he's doing the wheel bearings - again, just to rule out one more potential variable.

Looking more closely at the front forks & tree yesterday too, I don't think I'm going to try to cheat the fork tubes any lower into the upper tree - there isn't a lot of clamping area and it makes me nervous to try it. If I drop it another 1/8", that would put the riders-side of the top cap approx 1/2 way into the height of the top tree clamp - doesn't seem like that would be a good thing.

Admiral - you specifically mention that the shock height isn't the issue - are you convinced it's swingarm related, or what other variable would you lean toward?

Additional reference: I spoke with someone at Big Bear Performance late last week, and while of course they want to sell you their Ohlins front carts (which look like they're awesome BTW), he believes that due to the valving design of the Axeo cartridges, I'm actually getting cavitation, causing the handling issues.

I don't know.....is that even a plausible theory?

Just tugging on the swingarm doesn't mean the stuff is worn out.

The kit my be OK but you really need to check the clearance on the bushing to shaft.

Any looseness can be an issue. Swingarm is good place to look.

Axeo more than likely has no enough low speed damping and too light of springs.  Sounds like the sag is too much also. Why not increase preload. As it is later TC bagger fork only have 4 inches of travel stock.

Update to this friggin' saga.....

I ended up throwing the stock front fork internals back in approx. 2 weeks ago to try to rule out whether the issue is directly related to the Axeo cartridges, and found that the bike still exhibited the symptoms, but with the crappy, saggy, vague stock front forks. They had to come back out!

So, I tore down the forks again this past Friday, gave the Axeo 2 turns of preload per your suggestion (which per their chart is for a rider that weighs 350-450 lbs) to try to decrease the sag & see if that helps.

I expected a significantly harsher ride, but in reality, I find I actually like it better than when it was left at factory zero turns preload, but with that being said - still didn't fix the handling.

Once I got the forks installed again, I spun my front tire and heard a little bit of a noise from the bearings, so on Tuesday I had all new front & rear wheel & drive pulley bearings, along with new American elite's installed. (more thing to eliminate, and I was about due for tires anyway)

I also reset my steering head adjustment - I have it set so that when holding the bars to lock on the right, they just swing to center, when holding it to the left, they go *just* past center. Any tighter than that, and the bike wants to "push" and wander, it's a chore to keep it stable. I may have to revisit this again.

While the wheels were off, my indy mechanic noted (he's an older guy who has been working on HD's for years at a speed shop) something that I'm going to look into further......he said that there was some kind of oil or something on my drive pulley and thought that maybe it was coming from my left rear shock, but there wasn't anything on the shock, and it wasn't coming from anything else further up the line.

So I started thinking, based on the bike feedback I've been getting and now this substance on my pulley, if I've been looking in the wrong place - maybe my left side RWD is blown. I assume this could cause the "wobble" if the damping isn't working correctly?

I am borrowing a set of 12" stock HD adjustables and throwing them on tonight and will ride around today as well as the specific route I take that consistently produces the handling issue tomorrow and see if the bike behaves as it should.

My mechanic also specifically noted that my swingarm felt extremely solid. Admiral, I know that just putting pressure on the swingarm is not concise indicator, but with his feedback and the way the bike is acting, I firmly believe it would take quite a bit of noticable swingarm movement to create the symptoms I'm experiencing - I'm not ruling it out quite yet, but it will be next on the list if the stock 12" shocks don't settle this damn thing down - it's the last thing on the list.