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03 ultra starter clicking issues

Started by chas, June 25, 2021, 04:48:05 AM

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Appowner

When left overnight is there any appreciable drain on the battery?  From what you've said I'm assuming not but...............
You can test it by leaving it off the tender for a night and then seeing how long it takes the tender to peak it back up in the morning.

The horn not working strikes me as a clue.  But just where that might lead to I'm not sure.  Could be unrelated but I think it suggests a chaffed or pinched wire someplace.  You said you replaced the handlebar bushings.  During that could you have stressed the wires at all?  Did you hang the bars by the wires?  18 year old wires and connections sometimes don't like to be messed with.  And we all know the MOCO never puts any extra wire in their bikes.  And sometimes not enough.

During the winter upgrades did you remove the tank?  Even to just raise it a little to gain access under it?  Most of my electrical issues over the years have come from doing that very thing.  Being an Ultra how about the fairing?  Time to go back and consider what wires may have been disturbed during the upgrades.

My thoughts are you might need to go back over all the wiring you may have disturbed and examine it closely.  A good bright flashlight and maybe even one of those magnifier visor thingies (if your 60 something eyes are like mine).  Look for signs of wear, rubbing, shining spots of exposed wire where there shouldn't be any, etc.  Yes it's a Royal pain!  But such are electrical problems.

Hossamania

Was the ground wire re-installed on the riser bolt when replacing the bushing?
Wires breaking near the steering head in the main loom is common due to flexing back and forth.
Neither of these may have anything to do with the non start issue, but it may with the horn issue, and possibly affect the non-start.
Do you have a meter to take some voltage readings?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

After the cam upgrade, can you spin the motor over with the rear wheel, in 5th gear, plugs out? I know you said you spun it to adjust pushrods, has it been spun after all the work done and lifters bled down?
Have you tried the starter with the plugs out (ground the plug wires to avoid damaging the coil)?
Also, the clicking on the previous starter leads one to think that this problem was present before the motor work was done, but has now been exacerbated by something done during the upgrade.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Sycho01

I know this is a long shot but I once had difficulty with a car starter that was similar. I found that the positive cable that looked fine on the outside was actually quite corroded under the insultation.
I took a test light and probed the positive connection at the starter terminal at the wire to terminal connection and there was no voltage. I then started piercing the insulation on the positive cable going away from the starter and found that I had voltage about 6 inches away from the starter.
Long story short I replaced the positive cable.

Hossamania

OP says cables have been replaced.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

After thinking about this a bit, it's beginning to sound like the pull in winding on the starter solenoid circuit is working and it moves the bendix to engage. The hold in function is not and it releases until the pull in winding grabs it and sends it back only to release again but be reengaged with the pull in winding and sent back (as long as the starter button is depressed).  The starter spins when zapped on the bench and the bendix is engaging but just not being held there. 
KD

Sycho01

Solenoid contacts heating up and opening then pulling the clutch back?

Tacocaster

Couple of thoughts for you to chew-on, Chas:

1. You replaced your starter - "old starter was clicking but new one is fast clicking". Is it possible you "moved" the contact inside the solenoid when tightening the Batt Pos Cable to the starter? When installing and tightening this cable you should keep a thin box end wrench on the "flats" of the terminal so as not to turn it as you tighten the "keeper" nut down on top of the Batt Pos Cable. Disconnect your Batt NEG before working around this connection!

2. When you pushed-in the solenoid "button", did it recoil when you let it go or stay in? If it stayed in (contacts engaged) it will draw-down the battery as this winding (pull-in circuit) normally releases when the motor begins to spin-up and the secondary (hold-in) circuit takes over.

3. You have a Batt Neg cable installed to the Starter (good for you). Assuming it's terminated to a starter mounting bolt, is that cable installed between the starter mounting ear (boss) and the bolt washer/shoulder or between the starter mounting ear (boss) and the Inner Primary? Don't dismiss me too fast. I've seen it done and the problem reported was "won't start".

The guys have given you some great ideas to look into - especially the push-rod mis-adjustment/rear wheel spin check. That could certainly cause your starter to "bottom-out" (starter drive fast spin or even stall) versus the old slow click (likely low voltage) you had previously.

Good Luck, Chas and don't give up!

We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

truck

Do we know yet if the bike motor is seized or locked up somehow?
Listen to the jingle the rumble and the roar.

kd

He hasn't said yet however I expect if the rest of the system is working properly, on a locked engine The starter should stall but not disengage.  It may if it starts to roll over though.
KD

chas

I pulled the plugs and spun rear wheel in 5th gear and engine is free no problems there. I took a horseshoe wire and touched the small wire on starter to the positive terminal and still have the clicking and sparks! Anymore thoughts?

smoserx1

I think at this point we are throwing in the kitchen sink.  The issue KD mentioned about a bad hold in coil of the solenoid is plausible but you have gone through 2 starters.  Every starter I have ever seen was a  complete assembly with a new solenoid and drive mechanism attached and the chance of having 2 fail like that are next to nothing.  Is it possible you could have assembled your jackshaft wrong?  Here is a way to test that and it is tedious.  The outer primary would have to come off but here goes anyway.  Disconnect the battery and remove the primary cover.  Then connect just the battery negative cable but not the positive.  If you don't already have one, make up a section of wire a few feet long with a female spade connector on one end and bare wire on the other end.  Remove the green wire from the solenoid and attach the spade connector of the wire you made up.  Now standing on the left side of the bike so you can see the starter pinion gear, touch the bare end of the wire to the positive terminal of the battery.  This should energize the solenoid but the bike will not try to start since the positive battery cable is disconnected.  You should be able to see the pinion gear move outward  and engage with the ring gear on the clutch basket...and it should stay there as long as that wire is attached to the + terminal of the battery.  If this test passes I don't know what else to tell you except take the battery and the starter both to a shop and have them tested properly.  Something sure isn't right.

Tacocaster

Good thought smoserx1! If the jackshaft components are installed wrong......

And we all agree - something ain't right. We're missing some pertinent information (history) Chas that's needed, there's bad parts upon bad parts involved or there's something amiss upstream (electrically speaking) as this should not be a difficult issue to find.

You've loosened the starter mounting bolts to ensure its not binding, you've ensured the engine is free-spinning, (good to hear!), you've manipulated the solenoid by pushing it in (energized the pull-in coil) and even replaced the starter, all with no success.

Appowner might have hit on something too.
If you don't want to bench test the starter, take the Mega fuse lead off the stater lug but re-install the battery positive back on the starter lug (don't over tighten). Then pull the green lead off the starter's solenoid. These two steps should electrically-speaking, isolate the starter from the rest of the bike's starting circuit (think bench test). Now manually - and with conviction - push-in and hold the solenoid's plunger and see what happens. (I'm thinking it might be something upstream drawing the battery power down and giving the dreaded "solenoid fast spinning click-click-click"). I may be completely out of left field but not hard to try at least and the result might trigger someone to realize/recognize something we've overlooked.

Many have bench tested starters before. It's not hard but you have to ensure they're secured or they'll buck on ya!
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

HogMike

I may have missed it but, did you unplug the green wire to the solenoid and take a jumper wire from the + terminal on the battery and touch it to the spade terminal on the solenoid housing?

That will isolate all the starter wiring on the bike and you'll see if it's a mechanical issue with the starter.
:nix:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Dan89flstc

Quote from: Tacocaster on July 12, 2021, 04:29:19 AM
If you don't want to bench test the starter, take the Mega fuse lead off the stater lug but re-install the battery positive back on the starter lug (don't over tighten). Then pull the green lead off the starter's solenoid. These two steps should electrically-speaking, isolate the starter from the rest of the bike's starting circuit

If the positive cable is connected to the starter, it is not isolated, no matter if the main fuse is removed.

OP: Read the voltage at the battery posts (not cable terminals) with ignition switch on.

Press start button, read voltage at battery posts.

What are your readings?
US Navy Veteran
A&P Mechanic

HogMike

Quote from: Dan89flstc on July 12, 2021, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: Tacocaster on July 12, 2021, 04:29:19 AM
If you don't want to bench test the starter, take the Mega fuse lead off the stater lug but re-install the battery positive back on the starter lug (don't over tighten). Then pull the green lead off the starter's solenoid. These two steps should electrically-speaking, isolate the starter from the rest of the bike's starting circuit

If the positive cable is connected to the starter, it is not isolated, no matter if the main fuse is removed.

OP: Read the voltage at the battery posts (not cable terminals) with ignition switch on.

Press start button, read voltage at battery posts.

What are your readings?

Agree. Check battery posts. Check + to ground anywhere else. What voltage?
Check solenoid trigger wire to ground when starter button engaged.
How much drop vs voltage at battery posts? You should have 12.7v or so at battery, if it drops to say 10v at green trigger wire that could cause an issue.

Electrical problems are the worst!
:missed:
HOGMIKE
SoCal