OEM "B" lifter preload...?

[hattitude]

I'm putting A26 cams in one of my softails... it has "B" lifters with about 18K miles on them. I am planning to reuse them...

I've read about preloading the lifters to .140"... but that is with aftermarket lifters. I've searched and read for about an hour, and I can't find someone recommending a preload spec for OEM "B" lifters...

My questions:

1) Should I preload the OEM "B" lifters to .140" like the aftermarket lifters, or do they do better with less preload. The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

2) What is the factory preload spec for a Twin Cam, with OEM "B" lifters and OEM pushrods... Does MoCo shoot for .100" preload from the factory?

Thanks in advance for any insight...

[smoserx1]

Does MoCo shoot for .100" preload from the factory?

I believe so.  I have gone to about .12 with B lifters...don't know why they would differ from aftermarket either.

[les]

I think you should verify for yourself once and for all.  I think you should set them at .140, ride it all day.  Then next morning set them at .100, and take another all day ride.  I think you will find you won't be able to notice the difference, because they are hydraulic lifters.

[FSG]

The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

so what are you doing other than putting in the 26 cam ? 

are you cutting out the stock PRs ?

[hattitude]

The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

so what are you doing other than putting in the 26 cam ? 

are you cutting out the stock PRs ?

I bought a 2001 Springer, all OEM, with 9.8K miles about 2 years ago. It has 13K now (not 18K, that was a typo). I decided to deal with the cam tensioners...

I'm doing the cam plate upgrade... doing the '07+ cam plate. Gathering parts/info, haven'y decided on cams, probably do A21 or A26 like I did in my Heritage.. still on the fence with that choice, may go A21 since it's otherwise stock.

I'm debating whether to cut the stock pushrods. I already replaced the old breather assemblies, when I went into the rocker boxes after I first bought it, during a repair.  I have a set of S&S Quickies on the shelf I can use and figured I'd keep the OEM "B" lifters this time....  (still have a set of "B' lifters from my Heritage, they have about 18K miles)

While trying to fix a 2600 rpm ticking noise, after putting the A26 cams in my Heritage with the cam plate upgrade, many people said to increase the preload to .140" to quiet down the valve noise.. It didn't really work on the Heritage, but as I was researching for this bike... I couldn't find anyone mentioning a pre-load suggestion for OEM HD lifters.... just aftermarket lifters...

This lifter thing is pretty confusing to someone not in the business.....

Some swear a preload of .140" or more will quiet noisy valve trains.

Some swear you should use limiters anytime you use adjustable pushrods

Some say because they are hydraulic, it doesn't matter where you preload them, keep it in the middle (.100" or so)

I am trying to get ahead of the curve, so I don't get the tick I got in my Heritage...(which is bit better now due to a ton of changes)

There was one post on V-Twin forum (I think) that I found during a search, where a guy suggested going to .125" on OEM lifters...

Since I didn't know anything about the guy recommending .125", thought I'd ask here to see what people say...

[kd]

The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

so what are you doing other than putting in the 26 cam ? 

are you cutting out the stock PRs ?

I bought a 2001 Springer, all OEM, with 9.8K miles about 2 years ago. It has 13K now (not 18K, that was a typo). I decided to deal with the cam tensioners...

I'm doing the cam plate upgrade... doing the '07+ cam plate. Gathering parts/info, haven'y decided on cams, probably do A21 or A26 like I did in my Heritage.. still on the fence with that choice, may go A21 since it's otherwise stock.

I'm debating whether to cut the stock pushrods. I already replaced the old breather assemblies, when I went into the rocker boxes after I first bought it, during a repair.  I have a set of S&S Quickies on the shelf I can use and figured I'd keep the OEM "B" lifters this time....  (still have a set of "B' lifters from my Heritage, they have about 18K miles)

While trying to fix a 2600 rpm ticking noise, after putting the A26 cams in my Heritage with the cam plate upgrade, many people said to increase the preload to .140" to quiet down the valve noise.. It didn't really work on the Heritage, but as I was researching for this bike... I couldn't find anyone mentioning a pre-load suggestion for OEM HD lifters.... just aftermarket lifters...

This lifter thing is pretty confusing to someone not in the business.....

Some swear a preload of .140" or more will quiet noisy valve trains.

Some swear you should use limiters anytime you use adjustable pushrods

Some say because they are hydraulic, it doesn't matter where you preload them, keep it in the middle (.100" or so)

I am trying to get ahead of the curve, so I don't get the tick I got in my Heritage...(which is bit better now due to a ton of changes)

There was one post on V-Twin forum (I think) that I found during a search, where a guy suggested going to .125" on OEM lifters...

Since I didn't know anything about the guy recommending .125", thought I'd ask here to see what people say...

The heads and barrels grow when up to temp by .040 to .060 in length.  When set at .140 cold they will measure about .100 (or less) which is 1/2 stroke (middle of the plunger adjustment range of .200).  If set at the recommended mid range of .100 they will be .060 or less when hot.  Some have noticed an exaggerated sewing machine noise or light tapping when set at .100 that they can get to go away by setting them a bit deeper.   You can also set then up off the bottom slightly and they will be deeper yet. (This method is generally used in hot climate areas where hot starts create kick back or hard cranking.  With "B" lifters being the better lifters ever made, they "if in good condition" seem to perform well in any of the adjustment levels.

[smoserx1]

I'm doing the cam plate upgrade... doing the '07+ cam plate.

Good choice,  I did that to my flht in 2010 and about 70k ago (A21).  Just went in replaced shoes and lifters.  Everything that came out looked good.  The shoes could have easily gone another 30K, maybe more and the inner and outer one were both worn about the same.  I went back with fueling shoes (red color) and some v-thunder lifters.  Sure wish I had another set of B lifters.  The new ones are real quiet warm but rattle pretty good when cold.

[hattitude]

OK everyone... thanks for the insight....

If the "B" lifters look good (as I suspect they should be), maybe I'll just go .120" with the adjustable P/R.... doesn't seem to be critical either way... Plus, they're easy enough to re-adjust should I change my mind...     

I found a machine shop to clearance the top tubes for my pushrods, so I'll use a set of those for the adjustable pushrods...

I just hope it doesn't start ticking like my other softail did... but come to think of it, this one has a little bit more valve train noise than the other one did prior to the cam plate upgrade, but this one has a louder exhaust... so it shouldn't bother me... 

[FSG]

go somewhere between .120 to .140 , say .125 which would bee 4 full turns of a 32tpi PR, just keeps things numerical easy IMO

clearance the top tubes for my pushrods   

disassemble and clean the PR before use 

don't spare the assembly lube   

I like using limiters but if you don't have them the it's not the end of the world

NOTE: using limiters in lifters and adjusting a PR with a non limited lifter off the bottom (which I'd not recommend anyone to do) is NOT the same thing

a set of 'B' lifters with 18K miles are not yet run in

[Hossamania]

Are you using Rocker Lockers to help quiet the tapping and ticking?

[hattitude]

Are you using Rocker Lockers to help quiet the tapping and ticking?

I used them on my 2003 and they didn't stop the ticking noise... but on my 2003, the rocker shafts fit firmly (no movement) in the rocker supports... I didn't believe that was the problem, but popped them in anyways

When I get this one apart, I will probably use them again, especially if the rocker shaft is at all loose... I think I have a set on in my spare parts cabinet...

[hattitude]

Thanks all...

The plan is to keep the "B" lifters, after inspecting them, and shoot for .125" preload.

I found a set of Rockouts, so they will go in too...

I just need to collect a few more parts and then the Springer will be on the lift...

This will be my second cam plate upgrade. The first one actually counts as several, because I had it apart 4x trying to find the source of the ticking. But I actually enjoy working on my bikes now that I no longer need to work on a cold garage floor, or outside in a parking lot (like I did for many years)...

[kd]

Good thinking on boring the pushrod tubes too by the way. 

[Hossamania]

A big plus 1 on the lift! Makes it SO much better!

[hattitude]

kd,

I've read for awhile the recommendations on boring the pushrod tubes... but I don't have a lathe, and had no contacts in a machine shop. So I never did it, and always wondered if it would help..

Recently, I just walked into a machine shop with a good reputation, and he has bored out 3 sets that I had laying around.. two HD and one S&S... So I should be set for pushrod tubes..

Hoss...

My lift has been amazing... I have three bikes to maintain/repair/fiddle with and the crawling around on the floor wasn't fun. I built a small sjop next to the hluse and my wife bought me a lift for the shop about 5 years ago.

Now at 64 yrs old, I am loving the shop & the lift....  Oh yeah, my knees and my back also love it!

Here's a pic from one of the numerous times I had the Heritage apart, searching for that ticking noise...

[les]

The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

so what are you doing other than putting in the 26 cam ? 

are you cutting out the stock PRs ?

I bought a 2001 Springer, all OEM, with 9.8K miles about 2 years ago. It has 13K now (not 18K, that was a typo). I decided to deal with the cam tensioners...

I'm doing the cam plate upgrade... doing the '07+ cam plate. Gathering parts/info, haven'y decided on cams, probably do A21 or A26 like I did in my Heritage.. still on the fence with that choice, may go A21 since it's otherwise stock.

I'm debating whether to cut the stock pushrods. I already replaced the old breather assemblies, when I went into the rocker boxes after I first bought it, during a repair.  I have a set of S&S Quickies on the shelf I can use and figured I'd keep the OEM "B" lifters this time....  (still have a set of "B' lifters from my Heritage, they have about 18K miles)

While trying to fix a 2600 rpm ticking noise, after putting the A26 cams in my Heritage with the cam plate upgrade, many people said to increase the preload to .140" to quiet down the valve noise.. It didn't really work on the Heritage, but as I was researching for this bike... I couldn't find anyone mentioning a pre-load suggestion for OEM HD lifters.... just aftermarket lifters...

This lifter thing is pretty confusing to someone not in the business.....

Some swear a preload of .140" or more will quiet noisy valve trains.

Some swear you should use limiters anytime you use adjustable pushrods

Some say because they are hydraulic, it doesn't matter where you preload them, keep it in the middle (.100" or so)

I am trying to get ahead of the curve, so I don't get the tick I got in my Heritage...(which is bit better now due to a ton of changes)

There was one post on V-Twin forum (I think) that I found during a search, where a guy suggested going to .125" on OEM lifters...

Since I didn't know anything about the guy recommending .125", thought I'd ask here to see what people say...

This is why I recommended you get your own first hand experience by trying different adjustments and getting a better first hand idea what hydraulic lifters are about.  Experience is usually expensive, but in this case the education is free.  Then you could be contributing answers on HTT about this topic.

[hattitude]

The engine was pretty quiet with stock pushrods, lifters, & cams....?

so what are you doing other than putting in the 26 cam ? 

are you cutting out the stock PRs ?

I bought a 2001 Springer, all OEM, with 9.8K miles about 2 years ago. It has 13K now (not 18K, that was a typo). I decided to deal with the cam tensioners...

I'm doing the cam plate upgrade... doing the '07+ cam plate. Gathering parts/info, haven'y decided on cams, probably do A21 or A26 like I did in my Heritage.. still on the fence with that choice, may go A21 since it's otherwise stock.

I'm debating whether to cut the stock pushrods. I already replaced the old breather assemblies, when I went into the rocker boxes after I first bought it, during a repair.  I have a set of S&S Quickies on the shelf I can use and figured I'd keep the OEM "B" lifters this time....  (still have a set of "B' lifters from my Heritage, they have about 18K miles)

While trying to fix a 2600 rpm ticking noise, after putting the A26 cams in my Heritage with the cam plate upgrade, many people said to increase the preload to .140" to quiet down the valve noise.. It didn't really work on the Heritage, but as I was researching for this bike... I couldn't find anyone mentioning a pre-load suggestion for OEM HD lifters.... just aftermarket lifters...

This lifter thing is pretty confusing to someone not in the business.....

Some swear a preload of .140" or more will quiet noisy valve trains.

Some swear you should use limiters anytime you use adjustable pushrods

Some say because they are hydraulic, it doesn't matter where you preload them, keep it in the middle (.100" or so)

I am trying to get ahead of the curve, so I don't get the tick I got in my Heritage...(which is bit better now due to a ton of changes)

There was one post on V-Twin forum (I think) that I found during a search, where a guy suggested going to .125" on OEM lifters...

Since I didn't know anything about the guy recommending .125", thought I'd ask here to see what people say...

This is why I recommended you get your own first hand experience by trying different adjustments and getting a better first hand idea what hydraulic lifters are about.  Experience is usually expensive, but in this case the education is free.  Then you could be contributing answers on HTT about this topic.

That's sound advice..

I actually got a bit of personal experience chasing the tick on my 2003 Heritage... on that bike, I changed a bunch of stuff as I was trying to get rid of the tick at 2500 rpm when warmed up...

Luckily I enjoy working on my bikes. Now that I'm retired, it's kind of a hobby..

On my Heritage I did A26 conversion cams with the '07 cam plate upgrade... it developed a tick at 2500 rpms when warm that zI didn't remember hearing before I did the work..

I first used OEM pushrods with S&S premium lifters.... it ticked

I changed to Johnson Hylift lifters (from WFO Larry) with +.02" (over stock) fixed pushrods from Smith Bros.... it still ticked

I changed to S&S Quickie pushrods, at .125" preload.... it still ticked

I increased preload to .141".... it still ticked

That was just the pushrods/lifters I have played with, there were many other things too... a lot of $$$ for other stuff (kind of to rule out things and because I wanted to change some things up for fun). I have pulled the rocker boxes on that bike maybe 5 or 6 times checking and playing around with stuff..

Since it still ticks, I can't say my experience with any of those changes worked or didn't work... I have one more thing to try on the Heritage, but am getting ready to deal with the spring tensioners on my Springer..

I'll be curious to see how the Springer ends up, since I am using the same basic game plan. This time I'll be keeping the "B" lifters and using SE tapered adjustable pushrods...

We shall see.....

[Adam76]

go somewhere between .120 to .140 , say .125 which would bee 4 full turns of a 32tpi PR.....

a set of 'B' lifters with 18K miles are not yet run in

Hey FSG, on the subject of "B" lifters,  I have a set that looked good when I pulled them out at approx 42,000 kms. No frosting on the rollers and bike had stock cams and PRs. I'm installing CR575 cams, any chance of reusing the B lifters safely? Or have they passed their service life at that mileage?
Thanks

[Scotty]

Hey FSG, on the subject of "B" lifters,  I have a set that looked good when I pulled them out at approx 42,000 kms. No frosting on the rollers and bike had stock cams and PRs. I'm installing CR575 cams, any chance of reusing the B lifters safely? Or have they passed their service life at that mileage?
Thanks

Not FSG but if they look good run them but they are cheap enough to replace.
I would run them myself as I have seen them go 120,000kms and no issues but that was on stock cams.

[Adam76]

Hey FSG, on the subject of "B" lifters,  I have a set that looked good when I pulled them out at approx 42,000 kms. No frosting on the rollers and bike had stock cams and PRs. I'm installing CR575 cams, any chance of reusing the B lifters safely? Or have they passed their service life at that mileage?
Thanks

Not FSG but if they look good run them but they are cheap enough to replace.
I would run them myself as I have seen them go 120,000kms and no issues but that was on stock cams.

That's Scotty, 👍
is it worth pulling them apart, cleaning and reassembling? Or just run as is.
Cheers.

Apologies for the hijack, carry on gents.

[Scotty]

That's Scotty, 👍
is it worth pulling them apart, cleaning and reassembling? Or just run as is.
Cheers.
Apologies for the hijack, carry on gents.

I would not bother unless there was a failure in the motor and wanted to make sure they were clean.

[FSG]

Adam ....  Scotty  ......       

a set of B's with a known 42K on them is a darn site better than a lot of new lifters on the market    

[Hossamania]

For reference, my Bs have 100,000 miles of abuse on Andrews 55 cams, still running strong.

[Adam76]

For reference, my Bs have 100,000 miles of abuse on Andrews 55 cams, still running strong.

Wow, that's quite the achievement Hoss. 👍

[Adam76]

Adam ....  Scotty  ......       

a set of B's with a known 42K on them is a darn site better than a lot of new lifters on the market   

Thanks FSG. 😉

[Adam76]

Adam ....  Scotty  ......       

a set of B's with a known 42K on them is a darn site better than a lot of new lifters on the market   

Thanks FSG.... I almost bought a full set of Vthunder lifters for $77.

Also, I need to bore it my oem PR tubes...  what do I need to tell the machine shop?

Thanks

[Don D]

There are still decent lifters available. Some are USA sourced. The CC lifters used to be made in California, not sure today.

Preload needs to be adequate to eliminate lash when hot after parts expansion, and that is a broad range considering the lifter plunger has between ~.100-.200 travel. The magic special number to eliminate noise is a myth. Setting them off the bottom with just a flat or two can help if the spring pressure is stupid.

The Delphis were a decent lifter but being used consider the plunger operated in one area its whole life under hard circumstances, lobe lift rate and spring pressure plus valve train flex. Now they get adjusted to an area where the plunger has not run before. It is a bit like stroking a master cylinder on an old car bleeding brakes going full stroke, disaster every time. My advice use new lifters and set the preload near the middle. If you must use the used parts take them apart, inspect, clean and run them.

[Adam76]

Thanks,  that's great info 👍

[smoserx1]

I almost bought a full set of Vthunder lifters for $77.

I recently did.  The ones that came out were B lifters and had 70K.  The new ones looked like decent quality.  They were a little noisy when cold but got pretty quiet when hot.  Now they have about 1300 miles on them and have gotten quieter when cold.

[FSG]

Also, I need to bore it my oem PR tubes...  what do I need to tell the machine shop?

some reading

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,69838.msg


I only drilled them 2" as the bit I have is a short 3/8" reduced shank fella, 

[Adam76]

Also, I need to bore it my oem PR tubes...  what do I need to tell the machine shop?

some reading

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,69838.msg


I only drilled them 2" as the bit I have is a short 3/8" reduced shank fella, 

👍 thanks, need to find a friend with a lathe....