TechnoResearch tuning??

[teknition]

Looking for opinions on a getting dyno tune on my 2019 Ultra limited. I bought a Dynojet Power vision PV-2B tuner thinking that would be the best tuning option when I get my S&S 128 big bore build completed (soon) but I am running into a road block. I would like to get a professional dyno tune on it but can't find anyone within a few hundred miles of me that can do it using the power vision. The only guy relatively close says he can absolutely tune it but I have to go with a "Technoresearch tuning package" for $1000.00. Up until this point I had never even heard of TechnoResearch but this guy claims they are the best tuning software on the market. Anyone have any experience getting dyno tuned by someone using TechnoResearch? Would love to hear some feedback or thoughts on this, especially from actual professional dyno tuners.

[kd]

I travel 9 hrs one way to a tuner.  I WISH I had your problem. I would keep looking. You nare perfectly positioned to get to a tuner in the US if / when the border opens. Start searching there.  I believe you are reasonably close to a couple of members that tune.

[Coyote]

A tuning key for TR is less than $200. Where does the $1000 come from?

[rigidthumper]

I haven't bought a key lately, so I checked fleabay- prices range from $260-$400, depending on model & seller, and you need a VCM-TR3 to tune with (shop should already have this).  He may be wanting to sell him a Maximus, which range from $400-$500. Maybe it's $500 tune and $500 maximus?

[hrdtail78]

Techno Research is a good tuning product and falls right in the middle of the other tuning devices.  Price is subjective and depends on several things.  Doesn't sound like you have a lot of tuners in your area to begin with.  But the key is retailed for $318.95 but needs already bought equipment.  With the Maximus (retail $385.95) you don't need the extra equipment and I know shops that go that route.  I don't think $550-600 is outrageous for a custom tune.  .....and don't forget the $23-30 for tax.

[Coyote]

The sell in 10's for 200 or less. You can find them for less without much effort.

Link

[teknition]

I travel 9 hrs one way to a tuner.  I WISH I had your problem. I would keep looking. You nare perfectly positioned to get to a tuner in the US if / when the border opens. Start searching there.  I believe you are reasonably close to a couple of members that tune.

If I thought there was a remote chance of the U.S. border opening up soon, I wouldn't be worried at all but I would like to ride my bike before the snow flies.

[teknition]

A tuning key for TR is less than $200. Where does the $1000 come from?

I'm not exactly sure what a "Technoresearch tuning package" is but I will be asking him. I have never heard of them before so I wasn't sure if it is an actual tuner (hardware) like a power vision or just a dongle that is only a license for the tuning facility to use for access.

[teknition]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

[aswracing]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

[hrdtail78]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

Maybe, but I have done closed loop wide band tuning on my dyno before.  The magic of my dyno is the electronic brake.  It really doesn't do any tuning.

[teknition]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

Maybe, but I have done closed loop wide band tuning on my dyno before.  The magic of my dyno is the electronic brake.  It really doesn't do any tuning.

So you can simulate road conditions on the dyno, can the same not be done on the road?

[rigidthumper]

No cops to give you a ticket on the dyno...

[hrdtail78]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

Maybe, but I have done closed loop wide band tuning on my dyno before.  The magic of my dyno is the electronic brake.  It really doesn't do any tuning.

So you can simulate road conditions on the dyno, can the same not be done on the road?

Define road conditions.  If you mean all different loads vs rpm vs tps.  I'd say more with a dyno than you can on the street. 

[aswracing]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

Maybe, but I have done closed loop wide band tuning on my dyno before.  The magic of my dyno is the electronic brake.  It really doesn't do any tuning.

Closed loop wide band means the ECM constantly monitors the wide band sensors as you ride and makes adjustments on the fly. That's the functionality that Target Tune kit brings to the party. No dyno can do that.

Sure, you (and I) with our eddy brake dynos can log data, build new VE tables, and reflash, but that's not the same as implementing closed loop wide band operation in the bike's ECM.

[aswracing]

There's no question you can hit more cells using a dyno. That can't even be argued.

But you can also question the value of tuning cells that can't be hit while street riding.

[Hossamania]

So a combo of both would be ideal?

[hrdtail78]

I just bought the target tune kit. I think I will try to tune it on my own. Is it possible to end up with a dyno like tune with a PV-2b and target tune?

I think you made the right move.

For one thing, it can do closed-loop wide band, which is something no dyno can do.

Maybe, but I have done closed loop wide band tuning on my dyno before.  The magic of my dyno is the electronic brake.  It really doesn't do any tuning.

Closed loop wide band means the ECM constantly monitors the wide band sensors as you ride and makes adjustments on the fly. That's the functionality that Target Tune kit brings to the party. No dyno can do that.

Sure, you (and I) with our eddy brake dynos can log data, build new VE tables, and reflash, but that's not the same as implementing closed loop wide band operation in the bike's ECM.

No a dyno can't do that (maybe) but there are other devices that allow full closed loop tuning with integrator with wide band sensors on the fly.  In the ECM.  The tech that allows this for TT to do this is 20 years old.  Things have progressed in that time.

[Don D]

BLM, Block learn in GM Delphi injection systems provides some automatic adjustments during closed loop operation. In HD language that is probably Adaptive Fuel Value. The AFV cells store the long-term learned fuel correction ("trim") over the closed-loop operating range.

[aswracing]

BLM, Block learn in GM Delphi injection systems provides some automatic adjustments during closed loop operation. In HD language that is probably Adaptive Fuel Value. The AFV cells store the long-term learned fuel correction ("trim") over the closed-loop operating range.

Yes, but only with the narrow band sensors. We're talking about closed loop with wide bands.

[hrdtail78]

BLM, Block learn in GM Delphi injection systems provides some automatic adjustments during closed loop operation. In HD language that is probably Adaptive Fuel Value. The AFV cells store the long-term learned fuel correction ("trim") over the closed-loop operating range.

Yes, but only with the narrow band sensors. We're talking about closed loop with wide bands. 

I am too.  Real time closed loop with wide bands.  Not tuned with a vision or target tune.  To add.  The device I am talking about also allows closed loop feed back with EGT.  Pretty cool.

[Don D]

I understand and the adaptive fuel scope is very limited. By the way good discussion.

Some tuners use both narrow and wide bands. Closest to real world so they can actually set targets in realistic ranges and get data from the device best suited to the AFR value target. The use of a wide band for control is the only way to command outside the limited parameters of the narrow bands if closed loop all the time is employed. Target Tune may be a great product for someone totally without a dyno tuner available but still the dyno will be where timing strategies are worked out and the AFR works with that for the best power outcomes, reduced heat, and spark knock control.

[hrdtail78]

It is a good discussion.   

[teknition]

Thanks to all who replied. This is a great discussion and I am trying to absorb as much as I can. I know there is "some" adjustment for ignition timing in the PV quick tune menu (low, med, high, global, etc.). Does PV make timing adjustments when in auto tune? I suspect it doesn't. How can I figure out the timing part of the tune? Are there visual indicators in a screen in PV? or do you advance timing in a section till you experience knock then back is off a few degrees? How is it done on a dyno with PV?

[FXDBI]

Thanks to all who replied. This is a great discussion and I am trying to absorb as much as I can. I know there is "some" adjustment for ignition timing in the PV quick tune menu (low, med, high, global, etc.). Does PV make timing adjustments when in auto tune? I suspect it doesn't. How can I figure out the timing part of the tune? Are there visual indicators in a screen in PV? or do you advance timing in a section till you experience knock then back is off a few degrees? How is it done on a dyno with PV?

Powervision has a method to adjust the timing its in the manual under the pro tune section using the spark knock.  Bob

[teknition]

Thanks Bob, I will have a look. I've been busy building the engine and other upgrades so I haven't had a chance to go thru the PV manual yet.

[Don D]

I would have to slightly disagree about the PV timing monitoring and suggested adjustments. What they are using for data is spark knock data. That will keep your motor safe but often times and most of the time is not the same as maximum brake torque values at any speed or load. There is a treasure trove of power and drivability to be found if you give a motor what it wants not what it spits out as what it hates.

[aswracing]

I would have to slightly disagree about the PV timing monitoring and suggested adjustments. What they are using for data is spark knock data. That will keep your motor safe but often times and most of the time is not the same as maximum brake torque values at any speed or load. There is a treasure trove of power and drivability to be found if you give a motor what it wants not what it spits out as what it hates.

This is exactly right. I often find max power well before the threshold of knock or ping.

[hrdtail78]

That is the rub, isn't it.  These manufacture misguide with labels like auto tune and target tune when they are not.  With the standard tuning device in this industry.  You have 30 plus tables to help tune a bike.  These auto programs address 3.  Target, and FRT, RR VE and that is it.  They help map VE's to target but don't even address what is best target.  My job is still secure.  lol

My suggestion on straightening your timing on the street.  You have to come up with a way to validate your changes.  The way I know to do that is by time from point a to b.  Timing changes that lowers this time and doesn't show spark activity are good.  Changes that make the time longer are bad.  Do this for 30% tp and up.  Interpolate the data back to kpa and make changes in appropriate cells.  Sounds more than it is because you will see that 40 on up will be at 100kpa pretty quickly and the kpa will drop as rpm goes up.  Idle can be done by smoothness and decel can be pretty high numbers.  Then blend entire table from there.  This should get you pretty close.  Don't forget to check your VE mapping to target when finished.

[teknition]

That is the rub, isn't it.  These manufacture misguide with labels like auto tune and target tune when they are not.  With the standard tuning device in this industry.  You have 30 plus tables to help tune a bike.  These auto programs address 3.  Target, and FRT, RR VE and that is it.  They help map VE's to target but don't even address what is best target.  My job is still secure.  lol

My suggestion on straightening your timing on the street.  You have to come up with a way to validate your changes.  The way I know to do that is by time from point a to b.  Timing changes that lowers this time and doesn't show spark activity are good.  Changes that make the time longer are bad.  Do this for 30% tp and up.  Interpolate the data back to kpa and make changes in appropriate cells.  Sounds more than it is because you will see that 40 on up will be at 100kpa pretty quickly and the kpa will drop as rpm goes up.  Idle can be done by smoothness and decel can be pretty high numbers.  Then blend entire table from there.  This should get you pretty close.  Don't forget to check your VE mapping to target when finished.

I'm following you on most of what you said but you lost me a little at the part that is highlighted. I've been a licensed mechanic for 30 plus years and when I started out, "tuning" was a fuel filter, points, condenser, plugs, wires, and a timing light. I'm not unfamiliar with Fuel trim, block learn, integrator, o2 voltages, and ecu's but most of the time I am paying attention to any of those, I am chasing down a check engine light or drivability problem. This is my first go at actually adjusting fuel/spark etc. with a tuner.

I made a bunch of progress today and should be ready to heat cycle this engine tomorrow at some point. Pretty much all I have left to do now is run the wiring for the PV/TT and throw the peripherals (saddle bags, seat etc.) back on the bike.

Thanks to everyone posting. You guys helping me out is appreciated.

[HV]

  Hats off the the guys working this thread ....well done and no BS  just real good information ...Refreshing to see

[hrdtail78]

That is the rub, isn't it.  These manufacture misguide with labels like auto tune and target tune when they are not.  With the standard tuning device in this industry.  You have 30 plus tables to help tune a bike.  These auto programs address 3.  Target, and FRT, RR VE and that is it.  They help map VE's to target but don't even address what is best target.  My job is still secure.  lol

My suggestion on straightening your timing on the street.  You have to come up with a way to validate your changes.  The way I know to do that is by time from point a to b.  Timing changes that lowers this time and doesn't show spark activity are good.  Changes that make the time longer are bad.  Do this for 30% tp and up.  Interpolate the data back to kpa and make changes in appropriate cells.  Sounds more than it is because you will see that 40 on up will be at 100kpa pretty quickly and the kpa will drop as rpm goes up.  Idle can be done by smoothness and decel can be pretty high numbers.  Then blend entire table from there.  This should get you pretty close.  Don't forget to check your VE mapping to target when finished.

I'm following you on most of what you said but you lost me a little at the part that is highlighted. I've been a licensed mechanic for 30 plus years and when I started out, "tuning" was a fuel filter, points, condenser, plugs, wires, and a timing light. I'm not unfamiliar with Fuel trim, block learn, integrator, o2 voltages, and ecu's but most of the time I am paying attention to any of those, I am chasing down a check engine light or drivability problem. This is my first go at actually adjusting fuel/spark etc. with a tuner.

I made a bunch of progress today and should be ready to heat cycle this engine tomorrow at some point. Pretty much all I have left to do now is run the wiring for the PV/TT and throw the peripherals (saddle bags, seat etc.) back on the bike.

Thanks to everyone posting. You guys helping me out is appreciated.

Spark tables are KPA over rpm.  100 kpa mean that you are getting atmosphere pressure into your engine.  At 40% TP at 2000rpm's.  The throttle blade is open enough to allow enough air in to achieve 100kpa.  BUT as rpm rise's the throttle blade being at 40 isn't enough to feed the engine 100% the air it can use.  Meaning at 40%.  You will see 100kpa but as rpm climbs to say 3500rpm's you might only see 90kpa and it will continue to go down as rpm climbs.  This means that since KPA is a moving target.  It will be very hard to hold a kpa target even on a dyno and near impossible on the street.  Meaning that if you are trying to hold 80kpa.  As the rpm's go up you slowly open throttle to maintain 80kpa.  TPS is an easier target to keep since you basically get the opening % you want and just hold the throttle steady.  Looking at the data recorded.  The KPA needs to be followed to make sure your timing changes are in the correct spot on the table.

[Don D]

Learned the theory with a 3310 holley, vacuum secondary carb., on a modified LS6 Chevy in my GTO. Because the carburetor was too small the secondaries were wide open until they started to shut down near the traps. Felt like a governor. Not immediately evident and lots of side trips with fuel delivery, then there was the Aha moment.

That said how can there be any real time accurate tuning being done at anything other than sea level as a baseline? Sampling cells at over the maximum achievable KPA can't happen.  For example at 6000 ft altitude in "theory" you can only hit 87 KPA, YMMV.

[teknition]

I have read in the help section of WinPV that autotune can use the ECM's knock control to remove timing/adjust spark advance from areas of the calibration where knock is present, but can only remove timing advance.

WinPV says to address fuel tuning first and and then work on ignition timing separately afterwards.
It says that in the settings area of autotune I can set Max VE Learn to 0 and Max Spark Learn to 10 and by doing this, it will disable autotune's ability to change fuel, but allow it to monitor, record, and eventually correct spark advance based on knock activity.

Does this actually work? Can I tune my timing by advancing it in increments until knock is sensed and watch how much auto tune removes then manually adjust it to optimized timing?

[Coyote]

Does this actually work? Can I tune my timing by advancing it in increments until knock is sensed and watch how much auto tune removes then manually adjust it to optimized timing?

IME having autotune remove timing will not be successful. You can do logs and look at it and get closer though. But it's a manual process.

[teknition]

I'm not above reading and learning. Can someone point me to a manual or other source that explains what needs to be done to tune my bike? The PV information I have found is lacking other than how to do an auto tune session.

[Coyote]

I'm not above reading and learning. Can someone point me to a manual or other source that explains what needs to be done to tune my bike? The PV information I have found is lacking other than how to do an auto tune session.

Yeah, take it to a tuner bud.

[teknition]

If that was easy, it would have done it already. Unlike most that try self tuning, cost of the tune was not the issue. I have already looked down that road before buying the TT upgrade. Tuners must be getting their knowledge from somewhere, they don't just wake up one day and know how to tune.

[kd]

Try searching "Harley tuners" in your area.  I didn't spend a lot of time but I found a few that are WAY closer than many of us have access to and some have that I saw have good reviews. It's tougher with the border closed but they are out there.  One guy I saw has a mobile dyno.

[Don D]

Learned the theory with a 3310 holley, vacuum secondary carb., on a modified LS6 Chevy in my GTO. Because the carburetor was too small the secondaries were wide open until they started to shut down near the traps. Felt like a governor. Not immediately evident and lots of side trips with fuel delivery, then there was the Aha moment.

That said how can there be any real time accurate tuning being done at anything other than sea level as a baseline? Sampling cells at over the maximum achievable KPA can't happen.  For example at 6000 ft altitude in "theory" you can only hit 87 KPA, YMMV.

By the way what I illustrated will not only happen at high altitude but if the throttle body is too small to support the airflow at maximum demand, not able to reach 100kpa. How do tuners at altitude deal with this?

[kd]

Do you mean the hardware or the individual doing the tuning?  Before tuning some parameters are entered into the program and I believe one of those is altitude.  As we all know, the hardware has correction (ie. SAE) for a number of variables.  I also would be interested in hearing a more fulsome answer to your question.

[Don D]

The flash tuners rely on sampling cells to correct the VEs first. If you physically cannot hit the highest MAP pressure cells how can a baseline be established?.

[Coyote]

If you are tuning at elevation,  the right most column or two become a guessing game. Well, extrapolation is a nicer description.

[Coyote]

If that was easy, it would have done it already. Unlike most that try self tuning, cost of the tune was not the issue. I have already looked down that road before buying the TT upgrade. Tuners must be getting their knowledge from somewhere, they don't just wake up one day and know how to tune.

There are classes for this. DynoJet has some I believe. Oasis Cycles teaches one for the Techno Research products which is one of the ones I took. Here's a LINK to that one.

[teknition]

I case anyone stumbles into this thread looking for some useful information, here is some that I have found.

https://www.dynojet.com/downloads/power-vision-for-harley-davidson/

[hrdtail78]

If that was easy, it would have done it already. Unlike most that try self tuning, cost of the tune was not the issue. I have already looked down that road before buying the TT upgrade. Tuners must be getting their knowledge from somewhere, they don't just wake up one day and know how to tune.

No we just didn't wake up some day.  To really understand tuning.  It takes years.  I suggest you ask yourself a couple of questions.  Do you want to learn to tune or do you want to learn the program to tune your bike.  If you want to learn how to tune.  Throw all the auto out the window.  Use equipment to log data and use that data to make a calibration by hand.  I suggest reading all of TTS's documentation including all the tuning comments in the MasterTune program.  There is a TTS for dummies out there that is pretty good.  Also read all documentation for the rest of the tuning devices on the market.  Pay for a weeks class.  Great starting point for me and I also have given a couple.  Just don't stick with our industry.  HP Tuner has great forums along with EFI Live.  Yellow Bullet is a great forum that has some knowledgeable guys.  EFI University, HP University and Evans Performance Academy all have great paid knowledge.  Learn about long term and short term fuel and spark trims.  Learn about wall wetting.  Realize some tables are multipliers and some are direct pulse width.  Learn about the different modes the Delphi ECM run with.  I have been lucky enough to meet and know people that are delphi engineers and people that have wrote in the code for the Delphi and HDDelphi system.  I have notebooks full of notes from hours of phone conversations.  I have no idea on what I have spent on equipment and knowledge, but since I bought my dyno 13 years ago.  It diffidently has been a relentless pursuit of perfection, because it is just a PLC.

So, I guess the second question is.  How much you will to put into it to really learn it?  The Vision is a tuning unit.  Some like the features and how it works but most will tell you that it isn't ideal for spark.  Some use it only as a device to flash and use other programs and equipment to collect and interpret data.  Many ways around the barn.

My suggestion is to get a pro tune.  I am biased and a pro tuner.  Next I would suggest learning the program you have to the best of your ability.  Map your VE's.  Get your starting line out.  Address decel popping.  Then look at timing and if you have questions.  Come back and address them then.  Baby step it.  By then you should be better familiar with the program and sending cals to computer or ECM.  Base of some knowledge so to speak and knowledge always bring more intelligent questions.

[teknition]

Thanks for the thorough reply hrdtail78.

I'm not looking to be a Professional tuner and therefore not looking to go to a tuning school for a week, I'm looking to tune my one bike with the PV/TT tools I have. I am more than willing to spend the time and effort it takes to learn the program and was just asking for someone to point me towards some better information than the few U-tube video's that show you how to enable auto tune and load the resulting map into the ECU. The info in the link I posted is very useful and the type of info I am looking for. Your suggestion to look at other tuner manufacturers sites is very helpful and something I hadn't really considered I will definitely pursue those avenues.

I am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

[kd]

Hardtail's advice about downloading and reading the TTS (Master Tune) manuals is excellent.  There is a series of files that you will need to save. It starts out with orientation of the terms and order of procedures and how they effect each other during the tuning process.  The TTS is one of the more complete tuning devices and will hit on what you need, as said, the effect of changes on other aspects or cells of the tune so you can go there and see the changes if any, what should be open loop or closed loop for best all around use and much more. 

I have all of the TTS documents on my desk top and occasionally make sure I have downloaded any updates so the info is current. I also use the TTS tuner device. Where we are possibly different is I am tuning a high performance engine and prefer to have an expert do that. To me, it is more than well worth the cost as I am heavily invested at this point.  I do also like to be able to discuss (with the tuner) what is going on with the tune so I can recognize issues (if any) that may appear further down the road so I don't cause any engine mechanical damage.  So far, that is the extent of my use of the manuals but still found it worthwhile to learn what I could. That should be one of your major concerns.  Tuning in the dark so to speak can cause you to hit parameters from changes made that will quickly kill an engine. Again, the TTS manuals are well written and very useful no matter which device you are using.

[Don D]

I am not a tuner but I have read the books and know some tuners and some tooners.
The better of them know how to use trial and error plus draw on experience to give the engine what it needs to perform the best and stay safe. This is not a forum consensus opinion but based on data acquisition from testing. It is a method contrary from the way students are taught at Dynojet. They are shown how to correct VEs, told what are the best AFRs, and instructed to leave timing alone unless there are issues. I call this recipe tuning. A computer sauvey end user can accomplish that on the road for the most part.  When you pay a tuner to get the bike tuned they should be able to optimize not just set the values. They should give the engine what it wants not take away what it hates and call it good. At the end of the day it will run good, stay cooler, have no rough spots and have great driveability. Plus get acceptable mileage, assuming sensible riding habits. With that same tune the motor lives a long happy life, does not build a lot of carbon or contaminate the oil prematurely.

[hrdtail78]

I am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

Give me year and model.  Are your VE's set up as KPA or TPS?  BUT I don't worry if VE's match front and rear.  Injectors aren't matched, header pipe is different front to rear, does it have a 90 degree intake, and its a wobble fire engine that shares fuel with a shared plenum.   You also have to give what your target AFR is.  If you are using pro tune.  It sets your target across the board and IIRC lowers timing 2 points.  If your target is 13.5.  Your VE's aren't mapped correctly yet.

[teknition]

I am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

Give me year and model.  Are your VE's set up as KPA or TPS?  BUT I don't worry if VE's match front and rear.  Injectors aren't matched, header pipe is different front to rear, does it have a 90 degree intake, and its a wobble fire engine that shares fuel with a shared plenum.   You also have to give what your target AFR is.  If you are using pro tune.  It sets your target across the board and IIRC lowers timing 2 points.  If your target is 13.5.  Your VE's aren't mapped correctly yet.

VE's are set up as TPS over RPM. I'm using target tune so I believe the target AFR is set to 13:1 by auto tune when using the wide band sensors.

Full build specs:
Bike: 2019 Harley Davidson FLHTK Ultra Limited (stock was 114 CI) (touring). Twin cooled, not RDRS equipped, hydraulic clutch.

Modifications:
-S&S 128 C.I. big bore kit @ 11:1 compression ratio.
-Total seal gas ported rings.
-Stock heads (no porting)
-Fueling 1108 valve spring kit. (beehive springs and titanium retainers).
-S&S roller rockers with S&S rocker stud kit.
-Moonshine 492 30C cam (made by comp cams for Moonshine Harley in TN.)
-Injectors- Daytona twin tech, flow matched, 7.08 g/s.
-Moonshine 66mm CNC ported intake manifold (pretty sure this is made for Moonshine by Ward Performance).
-Screamin' eagle 64mm CNC ported throttle body.
-Screamin' eagle extreme ventilator air cleaner.
-Burns 1-7/8" Pro stock Stainless steel header (made for Moonshine Harley), No cat, 2 into 1 into 2.
-Khrome werks 4.5" mufflers with 202712P spiral inserts.

Misc: Star racing compensator ramp. Trask billet clutch basket, Rekluse Torqdrive clutch, Feuling 0 backlash crank sprocket, SOHB HB-125-07 hydraulic primary chain tensioner.

I will try to attach the VE tables and maps that I have so far after 3 auto tune sessions. Keep in mind I was to keeping it below 4500 RPM for now and just briefly touched 5500 RPM on the 3rd auto tune session.

[teknition]

Front VE map
[attach=0]

[teknition]

rear VE  [attach=0]

[teknition]

Rear VE map

[attach=0]

[rigidthumper]

I am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

It's all math. When you change VE, the calculation that determines injector pulse width (pw) is changed. It uses VE, AFR request, timing, temp, displacement, injector size, etc., to determine pulse width (fuel flow).  VE up, PW up (richer mix) . If you decrease VE, pw decreases (leaner). Loose quick adjustments is 20 points ≈ 1AFR change.  The VE table numbers need to be calibrated so that AFR measured by the O2 sensors equals AFR requested (from the Air Fuel Ratio/Lambda) table. If it takes 125 to get the measured AFR to equal the requested AFR @ 3500 RPM+100 KPA+100TP, that's OK.  If it takes 95 to get it there, that's OK too. If the requested AFR cannot be met, and the VE table is maxed out, (table limits exist) are you can increase the displacement or reduce the injector rating. Timing requirements are different front to rear, as well as VE table requirements. AFR request applies to both cylinders.  It's not uncommon for some pipe/cam combos to have up to 25% delta between cylinders.
VE tables reflect throttle position, AFR tables and timing tables reflect load- light load areas (idle, part throttle closed loop steady cruise) need less fuel than high load areas ( higher TP/KPA, wot). You want leaner mixes (and more advance to burn those leaner mixes) at cruise to get good fuel economy, richer mixes (and less timing for MBT) at WOT for max power.
The dyno allows you to steady state pretty much every TP/RPM, (which is really damn difficult to do on the street) and IMO it allows quicker review/adjustment of tables as necessary for a good running machine.
Mining for power is done after you have calibrated the VE tables- and that is done with a stop watch, best top speed/ET over a measured distance, or a drum. Edits to timing and AFR and measure, then more edits and measurement- did the changes help/hurt?
Lather, rinse and repeat...

[kd]

Great explanation. It's easy to see the value of a good dyno and operator / tuner.

[hrdtail78]

IIRC Pro tune shoots for 13.5 but TT allows you to target how you set up the AFR table with no timing removed.  Someone correct me on this if wrong.  So, 14.x would be a lot closer to what you are targeting over 13. 

My disclaimer.  I have never used TT.  I have to many questions about it that no one seems to have answers for.

[teknition]

It's all math. When you change VE, the calculation that determines injector pulse width (pw) is changed. It uses VE, AFR request, timing, temp, displacement, injector size, etc., to determine pulse width (fuel flow).  VE up, PW up (richer mix) . If you decrease VE, pw decreases (leaner). Loose quick adjustments is 20 points ≈ 1AFR change.  The VE table numbers need to be calibrated so that AFR measured by the O2 sensors equals AFR requested (from the Air Fuel Ratio/Lambda) table. If it takes 125 to get the measured AFR to equal the requested AFR @ 3500 RPM+100 KPA+100TP, that's OK.  If it takes 95 to get it there, that's OK too. If the requested AFR cannot be met, and the VE table is maxed out, (table limits exist) you can increase the displacement or reduce the injector rating.

Timing requirements are different front to rear, as well as VE table requirements. AFR request applies to both cylinders.  It's not uncommon for some pipe/cam combos to have up to 25% delta between cylinders.
VE tables reflect throttle position, AFR tables and timing tables reflect load- light load areas (idle, part throttle closed loop steady cruise) need less fuel than high load areas ( higher TP/KPA, wot). You want leaner mixes (and more advance to burn those leaner mixes) at cruise to get good fuel economy, richer mixes (and less timing for MBT) at WOT for max power.

The dyno allows you to steady state pretty much every TP/RPM, (which is really damn difficult to do on the street) and IMO it allows quicker review/adjustment of tables as necessary for a good running machine.
Mining for power is done after you have calibrated the VE tables- and that is done with a stop watch, best top speed/ET over a measured distance, or a drum. Edits to timing and AFR and measure, then more edits and measurement- did the changes help/hurt?
Lather, rinse and repeat...

This is great information RT, sorry for the tardy response. Thank you very much for the help, It is much appreciated. I split what you said up a bit so I can digest it in bite size pieces. With my auto tune sessions from a few days ago (after the revised tune was flashed into the ecu), I was experiencing knock values of 1.5-2.5 at a steady state of cruise while at highway speeds. I went back a few flashes and started over from an earlier point and did a few new auto tune sessions to see if I can eliminate this. While doing these tune sessions, I also wrang it out to 6200 RPM to try to get the upper end VE values to populate as before I was trying not to exceed 4500 until the engine had some time to break in.

I haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?

[rigidthumper]

I haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?
Modify message

No. Give the bike what it wants.
The ebb and flow of the system are represented in those VE tables. Remember, you have separate exhaust, common intake, split injectors, common AFR command, separate timing tables, different head flow characteristics, valve overlap, reversion, etc, all affecting those tables. 2-2 has a different flow than a 2-1 or a 2-1-2.
Here is a visual of front vs rear, on a bike with the same AFR set everywhere, after VE tables were calibrated so AFR desired = AFR measured.

[Don D]

I think it would have been better if the naming convention used for what is now called VE would be something like correction multiplier, then guys would not get so confused about this. These are not actual VE numbers for the engine.

By the way there are some, not many, dyno tuners that actually use a DynoJet torque module added to the drum. This allows steady state verifying that timing changes at cruising conditions are making positive or negative changes.  Working with monitoring for detonation events the MBT can be achieved.

I am clueless how the tuners juggle and balance MBT and horsepower as this relates to timing and front to rear bias.

[teknition]

I haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?
Modify message

No. Give the bike what it wants.
The ebb and flow of the system are represented in those VE tables. Remember, you have separate exhaust, common intake, split injectors, common AFR command, separate timing tables, different head flow characteristics, valve overlap, reversion, etc, all affecting those tables. 2-2 has a different flow than a 2-1 or a 2-1-2.
Here is a visual of front vs rear, on a bike with the same AFR set everywhere, after VE tables were calibrated so AFR desired = AFR measured.

In the example you have posted the maps look like gently rolling hills, mine look like a jagged mountain range with a huge hole in the middle of the highest points. When I auto tune and look at the front and rear correction factors, there is very little correction happening (-5 to +5 in most areas that I have obtained good data from). Would you say my map VE map looks somewhat normal/reasonable?

[teknition]

2nd view, same map

[teknition]

No. Give the bike what it wants. AFR desired = AFR measured.

Is there an easy way to see this? If so I haven't found it yet. Is there a real time AFR/lambda that is in a table format (similar to a VE table)? Is there a way to "log" real time AFR measurements in PV? The only way I can think of at the moment to get that data is to drive the bike, stop, write down data from one specific TP/RPM then lather, rinse, and repeat. (which seems like a very pain staking process).

[Don D]

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

[FXDBI]

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

[Coyote]

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

You can use it with widebands running a Target Tune map. In the AT mode, you are correct.

[FXDBI]

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

You can use it with widebands running a Target Tune map. In the AT mode, you are correct.

Yes I also notice the AT data wont read in the  WinPv only the modified map will. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?   Bob

[Coyote]

In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

[FXDBI]

In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

Yes I have the CANBUS cable run. The data saves has a  pvv file  PVAT-20-pvv has a example. The win PV software for your computer will save it but wont read it.     .  The maps generated display just fine.  Bob

[Coyote]

 If you want to view the log data you need MegaLogViewer. At least that's the cleanest way I know of.


[attach=0,msg1392484]

[kouack]

In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

Yes I have the CANBUS cable run. The data saves has a  pvv file  PVAT-20-pvv has a example. The win PV software for your computer will save it but wont read it.     .  The maps generated display just fine.  Bob

Dynojet powercore program has some ability but limited vs Megalog

[hrdtail78]

Some use it only as a device to flash and use other programs and equipment to collect and interpret data.  Many ways around the barn.

I like MLV.  Buy it once and if you need it on another computer or you bought another computer.  Andy hooks you up.  The filtering data feature is outstanding and it can be used with many tuning devices and stand alone ECU's.  Allows you to load multiple files at once.  IIRC it was designed to use with Megasquirt. 

[98fxstc]

Some use it only as a device to flash and use other programs and equipment to collect and interpret data.  Many ways around the barn.

I like MLV.  Buy it once and if you need it on another computer or you bought another computer.  Andy hooks you up.  The filtering data feature is outstanding and it can be used with many tuning devices and stand alone ECU's.  Allows you to load multiple files at once.  IIRC it was designed to use with Megasquirt.

I also have MLV and was very impressed with it, but last time I looked it no longer supported the later TTS files.

[teknition]

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Thanks for the heads up. Does this do anything that PC with target tune doesn't do? From the way I understand it, target tune should be aiming for the correct AFR set out in the AFR table so I THINK it should be trying to correct the VE with wideband feed back.... or I could be all wrong.

I've managed to find the "smooth" function and have my VE maps looking somewhat like the ones RT posted.

Can anyone tell me, in Power vision, how to go about recording live AFR into a table so I can compare it to the AFR request table?

[attach=0,msg1392572]  [attach=1,msg1392572]

[Coyote]

I would never use the Smooth function to make the graphs look pretty.  The problem you are (and going) to have is collecting data in areas where you aren't spending enough time to make the PV happy it's collected valid data. If it doesn't get enough data to set the VEs, they simply won't change. This is were a dyno excels as it can hold those hard to get to RPM/MAP locations so data is collected.

Rather than use smoothing to muck things up, do a tune session and then compare the VEs from before and after the run. Cells that didn't change are cells that didn't tune. You may be surprised how many there are.

[FXDBI]

I would never use the Smooth function to make the graphs look pretty.  The problem you are (and going) to have is collecting data in areas where you aren't spending enough time to make the PV happy it's collected valid data. If it doesn't get enough data to set the VEs, they simply won't change. This is were a dyno excels as it can hold those hard to get to RPM/MAP locations so data is collected.

Rather than use smoothing to muck things up, do a tune session and then compare the VEs from before and after the run. Cells that didn't change are cells that didn't tune. You may be surprised how many there are.

Seeing that with the auto tune takes 160kph in third to get to redline, basically have to hit redline in each gear to populate all the squares. Its just not possible on the street.   Bob

[Coyote]

I would never use the Smooth function to make the graphs look pretty.  The problem you are (and going) to have is collecting data in areas where you aren't spending enough time to make the PV happy it's collected valid data. If it doesn't get enough data to set the VEs, they simply won't change. This is were a dyno excels as it can hold those hard to get to RPM/MAP locations so data is collected.

Rather than use smoothing to muck things up, do a tune session and then compare the VEs from before and after the run. Cells that didn't change are cells that didn't tune. You may be surprised how many there are.

Seeing that with the auto tune takes 160kph in third to get to redline, basically have to hit redline in each gear to populate all the squares. Its just not possible on the street.   Bob

I could get almost everywhere street tuning but it did require some very steep up and down hills to do it (rural is best). If you're on flat roads, it ain't gonna happen.

[teknition]

The bike has been auto tuned through all the gears numerous times up to 6200 RPM except for 6th where I only made it to 5600 before pulling the cork. Who is to say what happens on an empty highway in the wee hours of the morning when no one with a radar gun is around?

I'm beginning to regret building this. I thought the actual build part of this would be the hardest part and didn't realize getting a tune on this would be such a huge pain in the anal orifice.

[98fxstc]

I put a lot of dollars and time and effort into my build and would be happy to pay for a pro tune if l could get one. I would have to travel for 3 to 4 days each way.
The tune is the icing on the cake.
I have done the best l can with TTS and that was a huge learning curve.

[guydoc77]

The bike has been auto tuned through all the gears numerous times up to 6200 RPM except for 6th where I only made it to 5600 before pulling the cork. Who is to say what happens on an empty highway in the wee hours of the morning when no one with a radar gun is around?

I'm beginning to regret building this. I thought the actual build part of this would be the hardest part and didn't realize getting a tune on this would be such a huge pain in the anal orifice.

Well there is a bright side. I would say you are quite a ways ahead of many who do an engine build and don't even consider the absolute importance of a proper tune. Or the many who scoff at an extra $500-$1000 for a tuning device and dyno tune.

The best of the tuners in my opinion not only know how an internal combustion engine works and how different components change how said engine works, they also know the various hardware and software, how to interpret gathered data, and how to apply that data. I would go so far as to say that the best of them are artists as well. I was shellacked once on here for suggesting that but I really believe it.  Good luck to you and persevere.

[FXDBI]

So when you scale up on the powervision because the VE's are high is this a sign the injectors are to small? It bumps the engine size up to adjust?   Bob

[Coyote]

Not if your injectors max duty cycle is in range.

[FXDBI]

Not if your injectors max duty cycle is in range.

  Where or how would I find that data?  TIA  Bob

[Coyote]

Not if your injectors max duty cycle is in range.

  Where or how would I find that data?  TIA  Bob

Injector pulse width is a data log value. Once it reaches 85% or so duty cycle (at a given RPM), you should consider a bigger injector.