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TechnoResearch tuning??

Started by teknition, July 27, 2021, 10:40:40 PM

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teknition

August 05, 2021, 08:14:17 PM #50 Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 08:22:14 PM by teknition
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 05, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: teknition on August 05, 2021, 10:48:35 AM


I am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

Give me year and model.  Are your VE's set up as KPA or TPS?  BUT I don't worry if VE's match front and rear.  Injectors aren't matched, header pipe is different front to rear, does it have a 90 degree intake, and its a wobble fire engine that shares fuel with a shared plenum.   You also have to give what your target AFR is.  If you are using pro tune.  It sets your target across the board and IIRC lowers timing 2 points.  If your target is 13.5.  Your VE's aren't mapped correctly yet.

VE's are set up as TPS over RPM. I'm using target tune so I believe the target AFR is set to 13:1 by auto tune when using the wide band sensors.

Full build specs:
Bike: 2019 Harley Davidson FLHTK Ultra Limited (stock was 114 CI) (touring). Twin cooled, not RDRS equipped, hydraulic clutch.

Modifications:
-S&S 128 C.I. big bore kit @ 11:1 compression ratio.
-Total seal gas ported rings.
-Stock heads (no porting)
-Fueling 1108 valve spring kit. (beehive springs and titanium retainers).
-S&S roller rockers with S&S rocker stud kit.
-Moonshine 492 30C cam (made by comp cams for Moonshine Harley in TN.)
-Injectors- Daytona twin tech, flow matched, 7.08 g/s.
-Moonshine 66mm CNC ported intake manifold (pretty sure this is made for Moonshine by Ward Performance).
-Screamin' eagle 64mm CNC ported throttle body.
-Screamin' eagle extreme ventilator air cleaner.
-Burns 1-7/8" Pro stock Stainless steel header (made for Moonshine Harley), No cat, 2 into 1 into 2.
-Khrome werks 4.5" mufflers with 202712P spiral inserts.

Misc: Star racing compensator ramp. Trask billet clutch basket, Rekluse Torqdrive clutch, Feuling 0 backlash crank sprocket, SOHB HB-125-07 hydraulic primary chain tensioner.

I will try to attach the VE tables and maps that I have so far after 3 auto tune sessions. Keep in mind I was to keeping it below 4500 RPM for now and just briefly touched 5500 RPM on the 3rd auto tune session.


teknition


teknition


teknition


rigidthumper

QuoteI am looking for answers to what I think are fairly basic questions to tell me if I am on the correct path after the 3 or 4 auto tune sessions such as:

-at a steady state of cruise doing 45-50 mph, the front VE is at 96.5% and the rear is at 85.5%, is that normal? When accelerating, VE goes above 110%, normal?

-same cruise state as above, spark knock front and rear are at 0%. When accelerating, spark knock will go up to 1.00 - 2.00 is this normal? If so, at what point would it be a concern?

-same cruise state as above, WBO2 front it at 14.50, rear is at 14.10 Should they be the close to the same? I would think so. Is this caused by the VE F/R being 11% apart? What should the expected value be?

It's all math. When you change VE, the calculation that determines injector pulse width (pw) is changed. It uses VE, AFR request, timing, temp, displacement, injector size, etc., to determine pulse width (fuel flow).  VE up, PW up (richer mix) . If you decrease VE, pw decreases (leaner). Loose quick adjustments is 20 points ≈ 1AFR change.  The VE table numbers need to be calibrated so that AFR measured by the O2 sensors equals AFR requested (from the Air Fuel Ratio/Lambda) table. If it takes 125 to get the measured AFR to equal the requested AFR @ 3500 RPM+100 KPA+100TP, that's OK.  If it takes 95 to get it there, that's OK too. If the requested AFR cannot be met, and the VE table is maxed out, (table limits exist) are you can increase the displacement or reduce the injector rating. Timing requirements are different front to rear, as well as VE table requirements. AFR request applies to both cylinders.  It's not uncommon for some pipe/cam combos to have up to 25% delta between cylinders.
VE tables reflect throttle position, AFR tables and timing tables reflect load- light load areas (idle, part throttle closed loop steady cruise) need less fuel than high load areas ( higher TP/KPA, wot). You want leaner mixes (and more advance to burn those leaner mixes) at cruise to get good fuel economy, richer mixes (and less timing for MBT) at WOT for max power.
The dyno allows you to steady state pretty much every TP/RPM, (which is really damn difficult to do on the street) and IMO it allows quicker review/adjustment of tables as necessary for a good running machine.
Mining for power is done after you have calibrated the VE tables- and that is done with a stop watch, best top speed/ET over a measured distance, or a drum. Edits to timing and AFR and measure, then more edits and measurement- did the changes help/hurt?
Lather, rinse and repeat...
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

kd

Great explanation. It's easy to see the value of a good dyno and operator / tuner.
KD

hrdtail78

IIRC Pro tune shoots for 13.5 but TT allows you to target how you set up the AFR table with no timing removed.  Someone correct me on this if wrong.  So, 14.x would be a lot closer to what you are targeting over 13. 

My disclaimer.  I have never used TT.  I have to many questions about it that no one seems to have answers for.
Semper Fi

teknition

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 05, 2021, 08:24:27 PM

It's all math. When you change VE, the calculation that determines injector pulse width (pw) is changed. It uses VE, AFR request, timing, temp, displacement, injector size, etc., to determine pulse width (fuel flow).  VE up, PW up (richer mix) . If you decrease VE, pw decreases (leaner). Loose quick adjustments is 20 points ≈ 1AFR change.  The VE table numbers need to be calibrated so that AFR measured by the O2 sensors equals AFR requested (from the Air Fuel Ratio/Lambda) table. If it takes 125 to get the measured AFR to equal the requested AFR @ 3500 RPM+100 KPA+100TP, that's OK.  If it takes 95 to get it there, that's OK too. If the requested AFR cannot be met, and the VE table is maxed out, (table limits exist) you can increase the displacement or reduce the injector rating.

Timing requirements are different front to rear, as well as VE table requirements. AFR request applies to both cylinders.  It's not uncommon for some pipe/cam combos to have up to 25% delta between cylinders.
VE tables reflect throttle position, AFR tables and timing tables reflect load- light load areas (idle, part throttle closed loop steady cruise) need less fuel than high load areas ( higher TP/KPA, wot). You want leaner mixes (and more advance to burn those leaner mixes) at cruise to get good fuel economy, richer mixes (and less timing for MBT) at WOT for max power.

The dyno allows you to steady state pretty much every TP/RPM, (which is really damn difficult to do on the street) and IMO it allows quicker review/adjustment of tables as necessary for a good running machine.
Mining for power is done after you have calibrated the VE tables- and that is done with a stop watch, best top speed/ET over a measured distance, or a drum. Edits to timing and AFR and measure, then more edits and measurement- did the changes help/hurt?
Lather, rinse and repeat...

This is great information RT, sorry for the tardy response. Thank you very much for the help, It is much appreciated. I split what you said up a bit so I can digest it in bite size pieces. With my auto tune sessions from a few days ago (after the revised tune was flashed into the ecu), I was experiencing knock values of 1.5-2.5 at a steady state of cruise while at highway speeds. I went back a few flashes and started over from an earlier point and did a few new auto tune sessions to see if I can eliminate this. While doing these tune sessions, I also wrang it out to 6200 RPM to try to get the upper end VE values to populate as before I was trying not to exceed 4500 until the engine had some time to break in.

I haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?

rigidthumper

QuoteI haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?
Modify message
No. Give the bike what it wants.
The ebb and flow of the system are represented in those VE tables. Remember, you have separate exhaust, common intake, split injectors, common AFR command, separate timing tables, different head flow characteristics, valve overlap, reversion, etc, all affecting those tables. 2-2 has a different flow than a 2-1 or a 2-1-2.
Here is a visual of front vs rear, on a bike with the same AFR set everywhere, after VE tables were calibrated so AFR desired = AFR measured.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Don D

I think it would have been better if the naming convention used for what is now called VE would be something like correction multiplier, then guys would not get so confused about this. These are not actual VE numbers for the engine.

By the way there are some, not many, dyno tuners that actually use a DynoJet torque module added to the drum. This allows steady state verifying that timing changes at cruising conditions are making positive or negative changes.  Working with monitoring for detonation events the MBT can be achieved.

I am clueless how the tuners juggle and balance MBT and horsepower as this relates to timing and front to rear bias.

teknition

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 08, 2021, 07:02:52 AM
QuoteI haven't had a lot of time to dig deeper into the sources listed for information on tuning yet but the info you listed definitely helps. I am a bit confused about looking at the VE tables and maps. They show weird peaks and valleys... I think they should pretty much increase in a linear fashion towards top RPM and WOT, is that correct? ie: upper left corner of the table should be the minimum value and steadily increase going top to bottom and left to right sides of the table with the maximun VE value being at the lower right corner?
Modify message
No. Give the bike what it wants.
The ebb and flow of the system are represented in those VE tables. Remember, you have separate exhaust, common intake, split injectors, common AFR command, separate timing tables, different head flow characteristics, valve overlap, reversion, etc, all affecting those tables. 2-2 has a different flow than a 2-1 or a 2-1-2.
Here is a visual of front vs rear, on a bike with the same AFR set everywhere, after VE tables were calibrated so AFR desired = AFR measured.

In the example you have posted the maps look like gently rolling hills, mine look like a jagged mountain range with a huge hole in the middle of the highest points. When I auto tune and look at the front and rear correction factors, there is very little correction happening (-5 to +5 in most areas that I have obtained good data from). Would you say my map VE map looks somewhat normal/reasonable?


teknition


teknition

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 08, 2021, 07:02:52 AM

No. Give the bike what it wants. AFR desired = AFR measured.

Is there an easy way to see this? If so I haven't found it yet. Is there a real time AFR/lambda that is in a table format (similar to a VE table)? Is there a way to "log" real time AFR measurements in PV? The only way I can think of at the moment to get that data is to drive the bike, stop, write down data from one specific TP/RPM then lather, rinse, and repeat. (which seems like a very pain staking process).

Don D

It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

FXDBI

Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 08, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

Coyote

Quote from: FXDBI on August 08, 2021, 11:47:20 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 08, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

You can use it with widebands running a Target Tune map. In the AT mode, you are correct.

FXDBI

Quote from: Coyote on August 08, 2021, 11:49:41 AM
Quote from: FXDBI on August 08, 2021, 11:47:20 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 08, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Unfortunately my tune does not work with the wide band data from powervision with out buying the pro edition for $199.  The personal one for $29.99  is for the narrow band sensors.   Bob

You can use it with widebands running a Target Tune map. In the AT mode, you are correct.

Yes I also notice the AT data wont read in the  WinPv only the modified map will. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?   Bob

Coyote

In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

FXDBI

Quote from: Coyote on August 08, 2021, 12:24:49 PM
In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

Yes I have the CANBUS cable run. The data saves has a  pvv file  PVAT-20-pvv has a example. The win PV software for your computer will save it but wont read it.   :scratch:  .  The maps generated display just fine.  Bob

Coyote

 If you want to view the log data you need MegaLogViewer. At least that's the cleanest way I know of.


[attach=0,msg1392484]

kouack

Quote from: FXDBI on August 08, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Coyote on August 08, 2021, 12:24:49 PM
In AT mode you have to use a CANBUS cable between the PV and the wideband controller. In TT mode, you don't.

Yes I have the CANBUS cable run. The data saves has a  pvv file  PVAT-20-pvv has a example. The win PV software for your computer will save it but wont read it.   :scratch:  .  The maps generated display just fine.  Bob
Dynojet powercore program has some ability but limited vs Megalog

hrdtail78

Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 05, 2021, 09:33:25 AM

Some use it only as a device to flash and use other programs and equipment to collect and interpret data.  Many ways around the barn.

I like MLV.  Buy it once and if you need it on another computer or you bought another computer.  Andy hooks you up.  The filtering data feature is outstanding and it can be used with many tuning devices and stand alone ECU's.  Allows you to load multiple files at once.  IIRC it was designed to use with Megasquirt. 
Semper Fi

98fxstc

Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 08, 2021, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 05, 2021, 09:33:25 AM

Some use it only as a device to flash and use other programs and equipment to collect and interpret data.  Many ways around the barn.

I like MLV.  Buy it once and if you need it on another computer or you bought another computer.  Andy hooks you up.  The filtering data feature is outstanding and it can be used with many tuning devices and stand alone ECU's.  Allows you to load multiple files at once.  IIRC it was designed to use with Megasquirt.

I also have MLV and was very impressed with it, but last time I looked it no longer supported the later TTS files.

teknition

August 09, 2021, 02:06:34 PM #73 Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 02:13:54 PM by teknition
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 08, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
It has not been mentioned here but many of the dyno tuners use other software to tune the bikes and smooth VEs.

DTT Twin Scan, copy and paste VE corrections after data acquisition
tunemyharley.com.

Here is one thread that references a little:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98732.0

Thanks for the heads up. Does this do anything that PC with target tune doesn't do? From the way I understand it, target tune should be aiming for the correct AFR set out in the AFR table so I THINK it should be trying to correct the VE with wideband feed back.... or I could be all wrong.

I've managed to find the "smooth" function and have my VE maps looking somewhat like the ones RT posted.

Can anyone tell me, in Power vision, how to go about recording live AFR into a table so I can compare it to the AFR request table?

[attach=0,msg1392572]  [attach=1,msg1392572]

Coyote

I would never use the Smooth function to make the graphs look pretty.  The problem you are (and going) to have is collecting data in areas where you aren't spending enough time to make the PV happy it's collected valid data. If it doesn't get enough data to set the VEs, they simply won't change. This is were a dyno excels as it can hold those hard to get to RPM/MAP locations so data is collected.

Rather than use smoothing to muck things up, do a tune session and then compare the VEs from before and after the run. Cells that didn't change are cells that didn't tune. You may be surprised how many there are.