Author Topic: New top-end...  (Read 1119 times)

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Offline CraigArizona85248

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New top-end...
« on: August 17, 2021, 03:13:03 PM »
I don't post here nearly as much as I used to.  But rest assured, I'm still riding and enjoying my old panhead.  It's finally time to replace the jugs.  These were +0.050" overstock when I rebuilt the motor the first time back in 2003.  After >100,000 miles, I bored them to +0.070 overstock in 2012.  I really don't want to try to go any bigger.  I dug through my parts cache and found these jugs and Wiseco forged pistons already fitted up and ready to go.  These are +0.030" overstock.  I'll send out my old jugs and have them sleeved back to stock so I'm ready when these jugs are worn out (maybe in my lifetime).

I broke out the micrometers and checked the fit on these pistons.  They are right at 0.0030-0.0035 which is what Wiseco recommends.  My old heads are pretty much done.  They have so many tiny fizzure cracks that the oil just seeps right through the side of the head where the return oil galley is.  I've run these heads for >160,000 miles and I really can't complain.  I'll retire them (at least for now).  I bought a set of repop panheads that I'll modify for my purposes.  I'm not a big fan of repop parts, especially when it comes to engine castings (is it still really a panhead if the heads were cast my H-D?).  But with as rare as they are becoming, I also don't want to cut up a set of heads that would be better off going on a restoration bike.

-Craig

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 12:49:27 PM by Coyote »

Offline drifter

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2021, 08:42:29 AM »
I wish I had a stash that I could dig through and find good stuff like that!    :wink:  My stash contains some cracked cases, a pair of 1949 pan heads that need seats, S&S 4 1/4 stroke wheels and a few odd things.  I'm just storing stuff I will never use.

Thanks for re-posting the overhaul thread below.  I saved it from the first time, very helpful information in it.  I just glanced through and the photos are now 'google photos' that want my identification to keep my google account secure?    :idunno:  No problem, nice to have you posting again.


Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2021, 12:45:48 PM »
...  I just glanced through and the photos are now 'google photos' that want my identification to keep my google account secure?

Ugh.  Everyone wants something in order to host photos I guess. 

The repop heads I bought arrived yesterday.  They actually look pretty good.  They are early heads ('48-'54) so they have the plumber intake nipples installed.  I'll be installing an o-ring conversion kit so I can continue to use the intake that I've been running for almost 20 years.  These repop heads already have hardened valve seats installed and larger shovelhead intake valves  I'll need to install a set of valve springs that can handle the 0.479" lift of the cam I use.  The springs that come with these heads say they are only good for up to 0.425" of lift.  They also painted the springs red and the paint is already flaking off.  I don't want that crap in my oil!  Should be able to start working on the heads this weekend.

Since I'm going to be doing the o-ring conversion on the intake ports, any tips you guys have for setting the rivet good and tight would be appreciated.  I've got the cam shaped anvil that slips inside the intake nipple to hold the rivet tightly in place.  Just need to figure out the best way to peen the end of the rivet so I get a tight/solid installation.  I don't want the rivet to be a little loose so that air can leak into the intake port.  The rivets that came with the o-ring conversion kit are not drilled on the end.  I've heard that drilling a small hole about an 1/8" deep helps the rivet flare out nicely at the end when you are peeing it.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

-Craig

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 12:48:52 PM by Coyote »

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2021, 12:46:24 PM »
A couple more...

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 12:49:06 PM by Coyote »

Offline turboprop

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2021, 01:11:16 PM »
Those heads look pretty good.
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Offline kd

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2021, 01:49:46 PM »
Craig, I would consider claying the pistons to check the larger intake doesn't interfere in the piston valve relief.
KD

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2021, 02:16:28 PM »
KD, absolutely!  I'm lucky because that was already done.  The heads currently on the bike bike have the same larger shovelhead intake valves in them.  So 10 years ago when I sent the cylinders to Perry Kime at Flo Headworks to have them all fit, he knew that my heads had the larger valves and the 0.479" lift cam.  He cut the valve reliefs in the pistons a little bigger and deeper.

-Craig

Offline Excalibur

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2021, 03:30:38 PM »
Nice looking heads. I replaced my heads 6 years ago with STD's and there was a quite few things I had to do like deepen the rocker cover threads and slot a few of the holes in the covers and D rings. Could remember the rest if it's helpful??

Good idea to replace those springs because if for no other reason, heard of one broken after not very many miles.

Watching with interest...

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2021, 08:05:18 PM »
I disassembled these heads today. The springs are terrible. Definitely low quality. Also some of the worst valve stem seals I've seen. Spring retainers seem ok, but I'll be using the retainers that came with the high lift spring kit. The head casting seems to be really good quality and that's the most important part.

-Craig

Offline Blazing Saddles

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2021, 12:46:41 PM »
Hey Craig: good to see you're keeping your bike going. I respect the time and dedication it takes.  I wish I still had my '62.  We are doing well here in Calgary but not able to cross the border in 1-1/2 years. Thanks again for the lunch years ago when we went though PHX.  Tom, Liz and Cliff

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2021, 12:46:07 PM »
What a mess with the boarder crossing issues!  My nephew attends McGill University in Montreal and wasn't able to come home for over a year. He could have come home, but would have had a tough time returning to Montreal. He Graduated this year and is now back on this side of the boarder.

If you make it back this way again, be sure to look me up again.

-Craig

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2021, 12:52:35 PM »
Craig, I would consider claying the pistons to check the larger intake doesn't interfere in the piston valve relief.

I clayed the pistons this morning. I've got 3mm (0.12") clearance on the intake and 6.5mm (0.26") clearance on the exhaust. That should be plenty.

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« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 01:13:45 PM by CraigArizona85248 »

Offline kd

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2021, 04:01:56 PM »
Craig, I would consider claying the pistons to check the larger intake doesn't interfere in the piston valve relief.

I clayed the pistons this morning. I've got 3mm (0.12") clearance on the intake and 6.5mm (0.26") clearance on the exhaust. That should be plenty.

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 :up:  If I am reading and understanding the 2nd pic correctly it appears you have more clearance between the edge of the valve to the rim of the piston valve relief than you do from the valve face to the piston.  You should be golden.
KD

Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2021, 05:11:52 PM »
I've been side tracked trying to install some plumber to o-ring conversion nipples in these heads. The conversion nipples are made by Colony. I suspect that they anticipate these nipples will be installed in used heads with with threads. They are just a smidge too large and will only thread in about 1 turn before the bind up. I grabbed my thread gauge thinking maybe these heads had a non-standard thread, but both the heads and nipples measure 1-3/4" - 20tpi. So, I tried to find a local machine shop to help and had zero luck. Nobody wanted the job. I finally broke down and bought a 1-3/4" - 20 die. I spent 3 hours using the die kind of like sandpaper on the nipple threads. Finally removed enough material to get a fit that was snug, but would allow me to thread the nipple all the way into the heads. What a pain!

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This is how far the nipple would screw in when I started.

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After a lot of hand "massaging" of the threads, it will thread all the way in.

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Installed and peened a new staking rivet.


« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 07:10:00 PM by CraigArizona85248 »

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2021, 05:20:08 PM »
Looks good Craig. I wonder if they intended some type of interference fit that didn't quite work well?

Brave job using that die.     :up:
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Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2021, 05:27:55 PM »
They probably want the thread to be tight so you don't get an air leak. They probably also assumed your heads are old and the threads are worn a bit. I almost got the nipples stuck halfway on a couple times trying to force it a little too much.

-Craig

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2021, 05:42:35 PM »
I was thinking about the same, the HD heads probably have a much looser thread just due to the casting and threading methods back then.

I'd be tempted in using a thread sealant after you verify that the fit to the manifold is right.


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Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2021, 05:57:33 PM »
Oh yeah!  I already test fit the intake. I used a high temp thread sealer from Permatex (similar specs to the Loctite 567). I went ahead and drilled the nipple for a staking rivet and installed that too.

-Craig

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2021, 06:11:03 PM »
 :up:      :up:
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Offline Deye76

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2021, 01:11:43 PM »
Too bad the head mfg. didn't just cast o-ring intake nipples, being it's got Shovel valves, = not trying to be OEM.
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Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2021, 01:21:15 PM »
They do make these heads w/ o-ring intakes but nobody has them in stock and can't say when they might get them. Part of the supply chain issues we are seeing everywhere I guess.

Offline Deye76

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2021, 07:36:24 AM »
Supply chain is for sure putting a damper on a lot. Look forward to your progress. Heads look very good.  :up:
East Tenn.
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Offline CraigArizona85248

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Re: New top-end...
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 07:26:36 PM »
Oh boy. This top-end refresh is fighting me. I installed the jugs and heads. The I was installing the pushrods. I got the adjusted and I was rotating the motor over by hand when I heard a slight "ting" sound. It's the valves on the front head touching ever so slightly during the overlap at the end of the exhaust stroke. If I was running a stock cam, this wouldn't happen. But I'm running a Crane 296A and it has more overlap than a stock cam. The rear head doesn't seem to be an issue but its bound to still be too close to run it. I'm going to take the heads to a local guy who has worked on pan heads and have him do a little work to get the clearance I need. So the heads will come off again. What's acouple more hours in the garage, right.  :hyst:

-Craig