S&S inner primary race won't go on far enough :(

[1340evo]

Having taken the advice of you guys on here, I bought the S&S inner race having upgraded the All Balls bearing.
Came to fit it today and it's a good 4-5mm short of where the last one was... end result is it won't reach the outer lip of the seal
Any thoughts on this. It's on as far as it will go for sure...
I did change the gearbox input shaft a couple of years ago to splined and bought I think an Andrews shaft.. maybe this has the taper coing in earlier than the standard one?.. wonder how hard it is, I could turn a bit from the last undersize ring if it will cut, but think it will be hardened.



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[JW113]

Can't explain what is going on, but man. The finish on that inner race looks like CRAP!

-JW

[turboprop]

Having taken the advice of you guys on here, I bought the S&S inner race having upgraded the All Balls bearing.
Came to fit it today and it's a good 4-5mm short of where the last one was... end result is it won't reach the outer lip of the seal
Any thoughts on this. It's on as far as it will go for sure...
I did change the gearbox input shaft a couple of years ago to splined and bought I think an Andrews shaft.. maybe this has the taper coing in earlier than the standard one?.. wonder how hard it is, I could turn a bit from the last undersize ring if it will cut, but think it will be hardened.

Where the last one was is irrelevant. That race came with instructions that call out a specific torque specification when installing the race. Did you follow the included instructions?

[Coyote]

Not suppose to go all the way to the seal, is it?

[1340evo]

I know its not going all the way to the seal, but should be closer. Think my last one was about 3-4 mm

The inner race is cover in grease, thats why it looks that way. Its real nice ground finish.

And yes, torqued it down till it stoped. you have 3 internal rings and a stop ring inside.. you can feel it going ring 1, 2, 3, then stop. so its going as far as it can.

May be its the James shaft adding a bit of extra shoulder on for strength?

[turboprop]

Not suppose to go all the way to the seal, is it?

No it is not.

[turboprop]

I know its not going all the way to the seal, but should be closer. Think my last one was about 3-4 mm

The inner race is cover in grease, thats why it looks that way. Its real nice ground finish.

And yes, torqued it down till it stoped. you have 3 internal rings and a stop ring inside.. you can feel it going ring 1, 2, 3, then stop. so its going as far as it can.

May be its the James shaft adding a bit of extra shoulder on for strength?

No. It is not the Jims shaft.

Aside from not looking like the one you removed (which may have walked in), how do you know the S&S race is not on the shaft far enough to go through the seal on the inner primary?

[kd]

I know its not going all the way to the seal, but should be closer. Think my last one was about 3-4 mm

The inner race is cover in grease, thats why it looks that way. Its real nice ground finish.

And yes, torqued it down till it stoped. you have 3 internal rings and a stop ring inside.. you can feel it going ring 1, 2, 3, then stop. so its going as far as it can.

May be its the James shaft adding a bit of extra shoulder on for strength?

No. It is not the Jims shaft.

Aside from not looking like the one you removed (which may have walked in), how do you know the S&S race is not on the shaft far enough to go through the seal on the inner primary?

Was just about to type that.  If it was not an S&S race there is no way of knowing if it was actually installed to the right depth or as Turboprop said walked in as they typically or often do.

[Coyote]

Have you slid the inner primary on and see if the bearing sits on the race? It's been awhile since I've done one but IIRC, the bearing isn't near as wide as the race is.

[Ohio HD]

Before I yank the old race off, I always remove the seal from the inner primary, then put the inner back on with two bolts so I can measure where the race edge is in relation to the bearing rollers.

That does two things, tells you were it's been riding, and if that's good serves as guide when putting the new race on so you know where it'll be riding.

[nmainehunter]

If the bearing sits on the race and the case can be assembled without having to muscle it you are good.

[jsachs1]

If it's at the proper depth, and you try to move it, it will crack. Mid USA makes a non-slip race as well. 
John

[1340evo]

When I put the inner primery on, you can get a small camera up the back and you can see the outer seal is not on the S&S inner race.

The old one had not walked in, it was the exact same place I set it as I have a tool that goes down the back to pull them off. I set it to this when they go on.

The primary bearing is between 2 clips so you can't change that, and the seal is pushed into the clip, so you can't change that.

I may just use the All Balls one with some bearing lock. Or investigate the other option suggested above.. but how does that work? Same way as the S&S?

[capn]

drive it on further

[1340evo]

I did, and it expands the end by 0.05mm oversize, to the point where the roller bearing will not fit over it?

I could always remove the shaft and turn / grind a bit off the taper ??

[FSG]

pull it off and measure it inside and out

also measure the mainshaft splines and taper and post a pic of it

[Buglet]

    All the S&S races end up having a bigger gap then the stock Harley ones, have no problems. I primany seal looks like it is install backwards. 

[1340evo]

    All the S&S races end up having a bigger gap then the stock Harley ones, have no problems. I primany seal looks like it is install backwards.

Putting the seal the other way may do it for sure.. are you saying the open side of the seal should go to the outside?

[rigidthumper]

Yes

[1340evo]

Yes

Thay would put the spring on the outside also... I thought the spring always went to the oil side?. whats stopping a bit of something geting caught in the sprocket from pulling it off?

[Coyote]

Spring goes against the retaining clip.

[1340evo]

Thats the way it's in....

BTW, the input shaft is a Andrews AP296900.. I've mailed both S&S and Andrews.. see what they say??

[thumper 823]

AFAIK Andrews makes most of the trans parts for most of the vendors.

[Burnout]

Off topic -
You have an old style sprocket on there.
I highly recommend using a new style PBI sprocket and the trans seal with the larger ID and the matching sprocket spacer.

[1340evo]

Looking at the Andrews shaft there is a slight step where I guess the 5th gear seal runs. Wonder if they made it a bit longer it would cure the issue itself in that the inner bearing could not move into the output shaft.
I'll take a picture tonight of both shafts side by side datum from the shoulder that sits on the trap door bearing. Then we'll see if they differ in any way?

[1340evo]

ok, I think I've found my problem here... The S&S race is listed for 1991 up, where as my box is a 1989 fitted with a 1990 splined shaft.
If you look at the pictures of all 4 shafts they make, the 1991 up does look to be shorter in this area so the race will push on further. Bugger!

anyone know if S&S or 'others' make this race for the 1989 / 90 box?

[jsachs1]

IIRC, A lot of the 90' trans parts were stand alone. 90' specific. I remember having a clutch fitment issue, when I built a customer an FXR with a 127" Ultima engine. The clutch assy. I wound up using was an S&S clutch, which I had to shim for proper location. S&S supplied the shims in the clutch kit. I think the mainshaft was a different diameter (.001" smaller) than the tapered shaft, or the 91' and later. May want to check with S&S. I'll ask tomorrow, when I see them at Biketoberfest.
John

[FSG]

ok, I think I've found my problem here... The S&S race is listed for 1991 up, where as my box is a 1989 fitted with a 1990 splined shaft.
If you look at the pictures of all 4 shafts they make, the 1991 up does look to be shorter in this area so the race will push on further. Bugger!

anyone know if S&S or 'others' make this race for the 1989 / 90 box?

put on a stock race and spot tig the outside edge to stop it walking OR use green loctite ........  I've done a few of both over the years   

[jsachs1]

Just checked the Andrews Products Catalog (2014), and they list their trans. shafts in this catalog.
296085 85'-89'
296090 1990 ONLY
296091 1991 and up
John

[kd]

Well there ya have it. 

[Deye76]

"a stock race and  use green loctite'

[1340evo]

Well there ya have it.

Thanks John.. In all they do 4 shafts, 2 tapers and 2 splined. the 1990 is the one you can change with.
Not sure about the .001 difference. Where exactly was this, on which diameter? I can measure them to the taper shaft tonight but can't say I've seen any difference when I fit it last time.

Not keen on a tack weld as the shaft is shot peened to remove any stress points, but green loctite I'll use for sure....

I've mailed S&S but still no reply (do they reply?) and asked if the do a 90 down race. Also mailed Mid USA as their race is listed from the 80's up so is this correct? Also asked Andrews, so may have a few mails when I get home tonight I hope 

[FSG]

Not keen on a tack weld

FYI I'm not the only one that's done it   

I've mailed S&S but still no reply (do they reply?)

they do but for sure they take do their time, in reply to a question of mine years ago they said 'about xxxx' to which I replied 'about' wasn't good enough and I wanted a measurement to 3 decimal places ........  they took their time but did eventually send me the measurement   

[Dan89flstc]

The part number for the inner primary bearing inner race is the same for all 5 speeds.

The diameter that changed on the mainshafts was at the location where it is supported by the needle bearings inside the main drive gear, the change came out for 1991 and later.

[Burnout]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

[1340evo]

I think he's talking about where the needle bearings go on the shaft, inside 5th gear?
But its the same bearing, did they just give them more clearance??

This is the reply from Andrews.. now I'm totally confused :-

1991 and later shafts are .985" dia., 1989 and earlier are 1.00". Again, I would contact S&S Cycle as to why it may not be pressing on all the way

Thank you,

Gary Wallace | Technical Support

I've measured both my shafts and where the needle rollers run they are 1", and where the inner race goes on they are "0.985 ?

Still no reply from S&S....

[turboprop]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

[1340evo]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

Really? So we are being paranoide over something that won't happen to a std Evo?...  if thats correct, std inner going on

[jsachs1]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

[1340evo]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

Have you ever seen thyem walk with green Loctite... Just a better option IMO if it works, if not a tack may be in order 

[1340evo]

The shafts do have a small step on them so how far can the bearing go anyway... far enough not to get the puller behind to take it off, but would it hit the seal??


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[Buglet]

  I seen a few take out the seal. I had a 90 that the needle bearing came out to the race and push the seal with it. I took a chance and push the needle bearing back in place, that was about 20 years ago still good today. 

[turboprop]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

Really? So we are being paranoide over something that won't happen to a std Evo?...  if thats correct, std inner going on

I think so. It was extremely rare back in the day and even now, the FXR crowd that I ride with this issue very rarely comes up. Internet forums have a way of amplifying things. The key is to separate the signal from the noise.

[wfolarry]

I had the S&S on my bike. It cracked. Found out when I went to replace the belt. Put a stock one back on. No problems.
Green Loctite works great in applications like this. I have even used it to hold the pinion race on the crankshaft.

[JW113]

I only heard of this on big HP/TQ motors. Yes, there were EVOs back in the day that fit into that category, but not like today. I think with the way you're building yours, there is nothing to worry about.

-JW

[jsachs1]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

Have you ever seen thyem walk with green Loctite... Just a better option IMO if it works, if not a tack may be in order 

Green  Loctite is good, but in this situation, I don't trust it. I can't afford comebacks, so before the no-slip race, I tacked them with the tig.
John

[Dan89flstc]

In the area of the main shaft where the Inner Primary Bearing Inner Race mounts, all 5 speed shafts are the same, and they use the same part number inner race.

The `91 and later shafts have a smaller outside diameter at the location where the shaft passes through the main drive gear, this has nothing to do with the fit of the IPB Inner Race.

[Buglet]

   If you want the Loctite to really lock, on don't forget to use there primer. It makes a big difference using it. It's like day and night. ,

[jsachs1]

FWIW, I use Linde 601 tig rod for tacking the race, for welding Kawasaki , and Suzuki crankshafts, and for tacking  the spacer to pinion gear on Evo's.(Ck. Home made tools section.)
John

[1340evo]

cheers guy's, will give it a go... Fit and forget...

[1340evo]

This is a bit of a strange one. I've used a All Balls inner primery bearing and have pushed the inner on using green loctite to the correct position. un-done the bolts between the engine and box a bit and dry fit the primary without the O ring to get engine, box, primery all in line. Nip it all up and give the gearbox input shaft a turn..
its maybe easier now to just throw the clutch in as its something bigger to spin, but I'm getting a bit of a tick, tick, tick.... tick, tick, tick as I spin it from the bearing? not loude like a crack or anything... I did think it was the grease moving at first but its not.

I've tried a number of things to better line up the parts but cant get it noise free.

When I get a small screwdriver, I can move the rollers in the bearing (at least at my end), a bit stiffer at the 8 o'clock position, but think the other end of the roller may be a bit tight leading to the ticking? I think this as when I take it off, I get a slightly darker area on the inner race towards the far end of the rollers.

I have a video but no idea how to upload on here.

What do you think... zip it up and it will bed in?

Anyone had this before at all?

[Buglet]

  Is the bearing dry if so put some oil in it and see if the noise goes away.

[1340evo]

It's greased and oiled, was my first thoughts. It's like a roller is tight and it's flicking past the tight spot.
Are All Balls any good?

Has anyone fitted the upgrade bearings you can get for these? Assume they are a twin race ball bearing?

[Burnout]

I not real keen on those one piece jack shafts, I had one that was eating gears.
I had questions about the jack shaft
One phone call and no questions they put a new one in the mail to me for free!

they do customer service right.

[1340evo]

I not real keen on those one piece jack shafts, I had one that was eating gears.
I had questions about the jack shaft
One phone call and no questions they put a new one in the mail to me for free!

they do customer service right.

Sorry Burnout, I'm not understanding your reply here (English you know  )

Are you talking about the 1 piece bearings? made by All Balls and Baker, but from what I read the Baker one is still the All Balls re-branded.

Do these work okay.. in a chain primary, would you remove the seals?

[Deye76]

"I not real keen on those one piece jack shafts,"
You speaking of the starter jack shaft? 

[1340evo]

so taken it in bits again, and I'm thinking maybe the inner primary bearing was not in square? I heated the primary and froze the bearing when fitting so it could of been sat at an angle maybe?
I'll do the same when I re-fit but try ensure its sat true.. If not, it may be time for the wider bearing anyway. I've spent a couple of hours with some 1800 grit and a ground bar trying to improve the bore. It does look like someone has been in there in the past and indenter the bore for about 90 deg with a socket or something so I've just removed any high areas that could throw the bearing off?

[turboprop]

so taken it in bits again, and I'm thinking maybe the inner primary bearing was not in square? I heated the primary and froze the bearing when fitting so it could of been sat at an angle maybe?
I'll do the same when I re-fit but try ensure its sat true.. If not, it may be time for the wider bearing anyway. I've spent a couple of hours with some 1800 grit and a ground bar trying to improve the bore. It does look like someone has been in there in the past and indenter the bore for about 90 deg with a socket or something so I've just removed any high areas that could throw the bearing off?

Impossible.

The inner primary bearing sits between two snap rings. There is simply not enough room between those snap rings for the bearing to be out of square enough to cause an issue.

Case in point, members of this page will discuss issues in depth, over and over and over again. That inner primary bearing setup was used on shovels, evo and TC. Maybe even the M8, no idea. If it was possible for that bearing to be out of square enough to cause an issue there would be discussions on this forum. I have never heard of any issue with that bearing being out of square.

[1340evo]

so taken it in bits again, and I'm thinking maybe the inner primary bearing was not in square? I heated the primary and froze the bearing when fitting so it could of been sat at an angle maybe?
I'll do the same when I re-fit but try ensure its sat true.. If not, it may be time for the wider bearing anyway. I've spent a couple of hours with some 1800 grit and a ground bar trying to improve the bore. It does look like someone has been in there in the past and indenter the bore for about 90 deg with a socket or something so I've just removed any high areas that could throw the bearing off?

Impossible.

The inner primary bearing sits between two snap rings. There is simply not enough room between those snap rings for the bearing to be out of square enough to cause an issue.

Case in point, members of this page will discuss issues in depth, over and over and over again. That inner primary bearing setup was used on shovels, evo and TC. Maybe even the M8, no idea. If it was possible for that bearing to be out of square enough to cause an issue there would be discussions on this forum. I have never heard of any issue with that bearing being out of square.

Not so.. after 5 hours scraping the bore and measuring, scraping and fitting, scraping and measuring, I've managed to get the bearing into the position it should be. Still a tad tight on the bottom rollers when fitted but don't want to go any more. The bearing is a very nice press fit in now where as before it was quite hard. The bulge caused by the chimp who did it before was proud and was crushing the bearing slightly making it oval and tight in one place.
You maybe could get it out of square if you tried as there is about a 0.025 gap with the bearing in and clips fitted but you'd have to push it on one side only to do it...
5 hours, back ache and various cuts and blisters but at least its okay now.
I do remember when I looked in there before that this bearing did tick a bit... now I know why