S&S inner primary race won't go on far enough :(

[1340evo]

ok, I think I've found my problem here... The S&S race is listed for 1991 up, where as my box is a 1989 fitted with a 1990 splined shaft.
If you look at the pictures of all 4 shafts they make, the 1991 up does look to be shorter in this area so the race will push on further. Bugger!

anyone know if S&S or 'others' make this race for the 1989 / 90 box?

[jsachs1]

IIRC, A lot of the 90' trans parts were stand alone. 90' specific. I remember having a clutch fitment issue, when I built a customer an FXR with a 127" Ultima engine. The clutch assy. I wound up using was an S&S clutch, which I had to shim for proper location. S&S supplied the shims in the clutch kit. I think the mainshaft was a different diameter (.001" smaller) than the tapered shaft, or the 91' and later. May want to check with S&S. I'll ask tomorrow, when I see them at Biketoberfest.
John

[FSG]

ok, I think I've found my problem here... The S&S race is listed for 1991 up, where as my box is a 1989 fitted with a 1990 splined shaft.
If you look at the pictures of all 4 shafts they make, the 1991 up does look to be shorter in this area so the race will push on further. Bugger!

anyone know if S&S or 'others' make this race for the 1989 / 90 box?

put on a stock race and spot tig the outside edge to stop it walking OR use green loctite ........  I've done a few of both over the years   

[jsachs1]

Just checked the Andrews Products Catalog (2014), and they list their trans. shafts in this catalog.
296085 85'-89'
296090 1990 ONLY
296091 1991 and up
John

[kd]

Well there ya have it. 

[Deye76]

"a stock race and  use green loctite'

[1340evo]

Well there ya have it.

Thanks John.. In all they do 4 shafts, 2 tapers and 2 splined. the 1990 is the one you can change with.
Not sure about the .001 difference. Where exactly was this, on which diameter? I can measure them to the taper shaft tonight but can't say I've seen any difference when I fit it last time.

Not keen on a tack weld as the shaft is shot peened to remove any stress points, but green loctite I'll use for sure....

I've mailed S&S but still no reply (do they reply?) and asked if the do a 90 down race. Also mailed Mid USA as their race is listed from the 80's up so is this correct? Also asked Andrews, so may have a few mails when I get home tonight I hope 

[FSG]

Not keen on a tack weld

FYI I'm not the only one that's done it   

I've mailed S&S but still no reply (do they reply?)

they do but for sure they take do their time, in reply to a question of mine years ago they said 'about xxxx' to which I replied 'about' wasn't good enough and I wanted a measurement to 3 decimal places ........  they took their time but did eventually send me the measurement   

[Dan89flstc]

The part number for the inner primary bearing inner race is the same for all 5 speeds.

The diameter that changed on the mainshafts was at the location where it is supported by the needle bearings inside the main drive gear, the change came out for 1991 and later.

[Burnout]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

[1340evo]

I think he's talking about where the needle bearings go on the shaft, inside 5th gear?
But its the same bearing, did they just give them more clearance??

This is the reply from Andrews.. now I'm totally confused :-

1991 and later shafts are .985" dia., 1989 and earlier are 1.00". Again, I would contact S&S Cycle as to why it may not be pressing on all the way

Thank you,

Gary Wallace | Technical Support

I've measured both my shafts and where the needle rollers run they are 1", and where the inner race goes on they are "0.985 ?

Still no reply from S&S....

[turboprop]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

[1340evo]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

Really? So we are being paranoide over something that won't happen to a std Evo?...  if thats correct, std inner going on

[jsachs1]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

[1340evo]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

Have you ever seen thyem walk with green Loctite... Just a better option IMO if it works, if not a tack may be in order 

[1340evo]

The shafts do have a small step on them so how far can the bearing go anyway... far enough not to get the puller behind to take it off, but would it hit the seal??


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[Buglet]

  I seen a few take out the seal. I had a 90 that the needle bearing came out to the race and push the seal with it. I took a chance and push the needle bearing back in place, that was about 20 years ago still good today. 

[turboprop]

I don't think the race can walk off the shaft (very far), as the clutch will hold it in position.   


The one year only shaft has different internal measurements, I am not aware of any differences on the outer end (other than the spline).   

.001 difference would not likely stop the sleeve from pressing on.   

The issue is not with the race walking off of the shaft, it is with it walking in on the shaft and messing up the seal.

This issue really came to light on bikes with built up twin cam engines. Was hardly ever, if at all, seen on bikes with oem Evo engines with the typical bolt in cams, etc.  The internet has made this into more of an issue than it really is.

Really? So we are being paranoide over something that won't happen to a std Evo?...  if thats correct, std inner going on

I think so. It was extremely rare back in the day and even now, the FXR crowd that I ride with this issue very rarely comes up. Internet forums have a way of amplifying things. The key is to separate the signal from the noise.

[wfolarry]

I had the S&S on my bike. It cracked. Found out when I went to replace the belt. Put a stock one back on. No problems.
Green Loctite works great in applications like this. I have even used it to hold the pinion race on the crankshaft.

[JW113]

I only heard of this on big HP/TQ motors. Yes, there were EVOs back in the day that fit into that category, but not like today. I think with the way you're building yours, there is nothing to worry about.

-JW

[jsachs1]

They walk on EVO, and aftermarket also. I'm NOT afraid to tack them 180 * apart. Done a few, NO ill effects.
John

Have you ever seen thyem walk with green Loctite... Just a better option IMO if it works, if not a tack may be in order 

Green  Loctite is good, but in this situation, I don't trust it. I can't afford comebacks, so before the no-slip race, I tacked them with the tig.
John

[Dan89flstc]

In the area of the main shaft where the Inner Primary Bearing Inner Race mounts, all 5 speed shafts are the same, and they use the same part number inner race.

The `91 and later shafts have a smaller outside diameter at the location where the shaft passes through the main drive gear, this has nothing to do with the fit of the IPB Inner Race.

[Buglet]

   If you want the Loctite to really lock, on don't forget to use there primer. It makes a big difference using it. It's like day and night. ,

[jsachs1]

FWIW, I use Linde 601 tig rod for tacking the race, for welding Kawasaki , and Suzuki crankshafts, and for tacking  the spacer to pinion gear on Evo's.(Ck. Home made tools section.)
John

[1340evo]

cheers guy's, will give it a go... Fit and forget...