Engine problems after 95" build part II - help needed

[Adam76]

So I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...

Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?


Thanks

[turboprop]

Most likely, but you cannot select them until the rods and pin have been inspected, honed and measured. They are not a one size fits all. Think in terms of piston rings.

[Don D]

So I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...

Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?

Thanks

I am assuming you have a shop that you chose to do that for you, this isn't something most can do at a home shop. The decision is made upon inspection as described by turboprop

[PC_Hater]

For the crank - you are finding lots of bits of metal as you take the engine apart.
Assume some of it went through the big end bearings...
Buy a rebuilt welded crank from the USA. I did, not even funny money despite customs and shipping and taxes.
Less than half the cost of buying a new crank from HD in the UK.
It was about GBP 650 by the time it arrived at my house.

Resist the urge to get a stroker crank unless you really really do feel the need!

And, generally those cranks were always considered to be not rebuildable.
It needs big boys toys and the skills to use them.
We have neither.

[Adam76]

Most likely, but you cannot select them until the rods and pin have been inspected, honed and measured. They are not a one size fits all. Think in terms of piston rings.

Understood.
Thanks turbo

[Adam76]

So I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...

Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?

Thanks

I am assuming you have a shop that you chose to do that for you, this isn't something most can do at a home shop. The decision is made upon inspection as described by turboprop

Thanks Don, yes I have a shop for that -- way beyond my knowledge and ability.

At this point, I feel like I'm not that far from considering a stroker crank? May not be that much more $$
Thanks.

[Ohio HD]

I would definitely get a 4-3/8" crank for your lower end, and I'd suggest stopping at 103". Save some cylinder for the future. 

[Adam76]

I managed to find a local guy that did 14,000 original kms on his '02 softail Deuce before splitting and boring his cases to fit a 110" combo.

He has offered to give me (for some beer) his original and in very good condition camshaft plate and complete factory crankshaft flywheel assembly.

This is going to save me a lot of $$$. It's really nice to have some good news come my way for a change. 

[Adam76]

The FSM says to completely remove the transmission before removing the crankcase.
Is this really necessary? Or can I get away with just moving it back a little?
Thanks

[Armin]

Hello Adam, when I gave my 2001 FLSTCI engine a total overhaul I did not remove the gearbox and I believe your 2002 Fatboy has the same frame layout. Lots of luck!!!

Armin.

[Adam76]

You'all probably sick of this thread already, but I have an update and I'm hoping to see this project all the way through...

Picked up a low mileage stock cam plate and 2 oil pumps - one older style and one newer style, not sure if it's compatible with the cam plate.
Also from the same bike a complete flywheel assembly taken out at 14,000kms for a stroker crank.
Got pretty lucky with these parts.
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[rigidthumper]

If you switch to conversion cams and a hydraulic tensioner plate, you can use the new style pump.

[Adam76]

Thanks, yeah I didn't think it'd work. Invested too much in these cams I have and both new tensioner shoes, so I'll have to stick with what I've got.
Cheers

[Ohio HD]

Adam what year is the crank from? If it's an OEM HD 4-3/8 crank it won't work in your bike. The later OEM has a 24 spline sprocket shaft, the earlier has a 10 spline. I can't see that side of the crank in the pick. It may be ok, just want to as and be sure.

[rigidthumper]

It's got the big rod ends, so he's OK

[Ohio HD]

I did see the normal rod ends. I wonder it it could be aftermarket for a later motor?
But if I zoom in on the plug, that does look to be HD and not S&S.

Your right, should be ok.

[kd]

In reply #132 he says the crank is from an 02 Softail Deuce. His is an 02 Fatboy so he should be golden.  That's real good news this is coming together for him/

[Adam76]

Yes, crank is from same year softail.

I'm getting all the parts and bearings I need to order.

I have the take out cam plate that only has 14,000kms on it --> do I need to replace the outer cam plate bearings with a new set? Or should I be ok with the original ones that are in there and appear to be in good shape. (obviously I have a new set of inner cam bearings to go in).

I know the easy answer is replace everything.... but every $100 counts and if it's not really necessary?

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Thanks 

[FSG]

(obviously I have a new set of inner cam bearings to go in).

Full Compliment ?

[Adam76]

(obviously I have a new set of inner cam bearings to go in).

Full Compliment ?

Yes, torrington 👍

[autoworker]

I wouldn't worry about replacing the roller bearing in the cam plate.It is quite robust for the job that it is doing.The ball bearing is probably fine but should be very cheap to replace nonetheless.

[Don D]

You will find the 07up oil pump with no oring has a different bolt pattern.

[-deuced-]

  you say you've read the manual. Looks like you missed the part in bold type about using new bearings. It's not the easy answer, it's the correct answer. The ball bearing in the camplate has been side loaded. Pressure has been exerted on the inner race during removal of or from the front cam shaft. A new bearing should be installed. The rear bearing may be serviceable but with the amount of parts that need replacing on this engine you're really considering skimping on one bearing? And where's the inner race?
On the left in your pic, the camplate with cams in it, is that from this engine? Did you reuse the camplate bearings when you changed cams? What's the condition of the journals?
There has been more than one inch of oil rail through this motor. That detritus in the inner cam bearing is not ring material, nor is the foreign piece in the oil pump.
When your crank and that deuce crank left the factory they were identical. It will fit however your crankcase bearings are toast. Can your mechanic set up a timken lower end? Can he check the timing of that chain sprocket? HD Street Performance has twice recommended someone and I doubt that was a name that just formed from letters magically rearranging in his bowl of alphabet soup.
Conrod bearings. What, big end? How do you think they come out? Your pinion runout is 0.0018? How did you measure that? Doesn't matter, you have a replacement crank and even from that pic I can see that it is indeed low miles.
Just move the transmission back a little? You'd still have to remove the primary and the swing arm first.
A stroker crank? 
What brand is your FSM? You say you want to learn but I don't think you're too inclined to put much effort into research and study. Your engine is not in it's present condition because of bad luck, it's because of bad workmanship. Seriously, step away from the tools. Put everything in a trailer and take it to a shop.

  Don't Like

[Adam76]

you say you've read the manual. Looks like you missed the part in bold type about using new bearings. It's not the easy answer, it's the correct answer. The ball bearing in the camplate has been side loaded. Pressure has been exerted on the inner race during removal of or from the front cam shaft. A new bearing should be installed. The rear bearing may be serviceable but with the amount of parts that need replacing on this engine you're really considering skimping on one bearing?

Ok point taken. I will order both bearings.

Did you reuse the camplate bearings when you changed cams?

No, put new ones in.

There has been more than one inch of oil rail through this motor. That detritus in the inner cam bearing is not ring material, nor is the foreign piece in the oil pump.
When your crank and that deuce crank left the factory they were identical. It will fit however your crankcase bearings are toast. Can your mechanic set up a timken lower end? Can he check the timing of that chain sprocket?

Yes, he is able to do this.

pinion runout is 0.0018? How did you measure that? Doesn't matter, you have a replacement crank and even from that pic I can see that it is indeed low miles.
Just move the transmission back a little? You'd still have to remove the primary and the swing arm first.

Already done.

What brand is your FSM? You say you want to learn but I don't think you're too inclined to put much effort into research and study.

Yes I do plenty research.... but there's plenty of misinformation on the internet. That's why I'm a site supporter here. I'm pulling the motor and rebuilding the bottom end because I'm following advice given to me here on this forum, but you say I'm not listening?

Your engine is not in it's present condition because of bad luck, it's because of bad workmanship. Seriously, step away from the tools. Put everything in a trailer and take it to a shop.

The whole crankcase and new crank and all new crankcase bearings are going to a shop, did you think I was going to do it myself? 
 


Easy big fella, we're not all as experienced as you, and I'm not made of money.

Peace.

[-deuced-]

I thought my post might ruffle a few feathers, that's why I added the "don't like" button, lol. Hope nobody damaged their screens trying to press it.
Sometimes it's hard to convey intent in writing. Most of my previous posts were meant to be positive and along the lines of it might not be that bad. When you posted the pic of what came out of the oil filter, well, it's even worse than expected. Pleased that you've engaged a mechanic who is able to do the work.
It's also easy to misinterpret others' writings. I was under the impression that you were skimming through the fsm and/or reading an aftermarket one. I apologise.
I am of a vintage where the training I received was thorough and intense. It was many years after I finished my apprenticeship before I realised just how good that training was however a lot of my experience has been gained from costly errors that I have made. And I'm still gaining experience 
I probably could've worded better my comment of it not being bad luck.