Engine problems after 95" build part II - help needed

[Adam76]

I recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.

Ok thanks Don, could you please  pm me the details?

Cheers

[Adam76]

these days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority

so true   

done ? or done correct ?

The effort is the thing, we've all done things wrong once or twice, but the key is to try.

That's it. How do you learn if you don't first give it a shot? This is only my second engine build. I'm still learning a lot. 😁

[Adam76]

I'd use the same big bore gaskets you used the first time. They measure 3.950-3.955 installed, plenty of room for .020 over.

Thanks! 👍

[Adam76]

Anyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? 

[rigidthumper]

Flashlight, forceps, and patience. 

[-deuced-]

........do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

It would work. Personally, I wouldn't. But that's more because of an OCD viewpoint than any actual mechanical reason. Like, I'd rather go barefoot than wear mismatched socks.
Yes, you use 3.875" head gasket with 0.020" oversize piston however we're talking about diameter so 0.020" oversize is another 0.010" off each side. Or 0.010" off the cylinder wall all the way around. Is 0.010" enough to remove those gouges? Also, can you get just one piston? Interested in what the machinist says (btw, no need to post who that is on public forum) maybe they can supply another cylinder.

Problem is the missing piece of ring. How did it break off and where is it now? How were pistons and cylinders installed? If that piece of ring is in the crankcase it's not just sharing that space with the crank but also all the softail counterbalancer paraphernalia. Unfortunately I think the only sure way to get it out is split the cases.

[kd]

Here's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean.  This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it.  It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea.  You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas.  Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find.  If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes.  Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail.  Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.

Good hunting and best wishes for your success.

[14Frisco]

Anyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? 

[Adam76]

........do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

It would work. Personally, I wouldn't. But that's more because of an OCD viewpoint than any actual mechanical reason. Like, I'd rather go barefoot than wear mismatched socks.
Yes, you use 3.875" head gasket with 0.020" oversize piston however we're talking about diameter so 0.020" oversize is another 0.010" off each side. Or 0.010" off the cylinder wall all the way around. Is 0.010" enough to remove those gouges? Also, can you get just one piston? Interested in what the machinist says (btw, no need to post who that is on public forum) maybe they can supply another cylinder.

Problem is the missing piece of ring. How did it break off and where is it now? How were pistons and cylinders installed? If that piece of ring is in the crankcase it's not just sharing that space with the crank but also all the softail counterbalancer paraphernalia. Unfortunately I think the only sure way to get it out is split the cases.

Oh man!! That is not good news... I'm really hoping that it doesn't come to that because it's way out of my depth and it's gonna be expensive   

[Adam76]

Here's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean.  This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it.  It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea.  You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas.  Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find.  If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes.  Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail.  Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.

Good hunting and best wishes for your success.

Thanks 👍

[-deuced-]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1636362593;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Last pic in first post.
When assembled, was the piston installed on the rod and then the cylinder installed? Maybe the ring broke at that time. If so, maybe it fell down or maybe it shot out to the side. If it stayed in the piston groove it's not going to fall into the crankcase once the piston is in the cylinder. Same if it broke after installation. It won't fit between the piston and the cylinder wall. Looking at that pic from the first post it seems the missing piece was still in the piston groove while the motor was running. The marks on the cylinder wall are from the "two" end gaps. Maybe when the cylinder was removed the broken piece fell out and down. If the motor has not been turned over it just might be sitting on top of the crank, or at least visible, or retrievable with a magnet. The oil rail will stick to a magnet but so will the crank. Good pics from 14frisco showing secure attachment of wire to magnet. Fiddly job but of course it's worth a try. That broken piece might also have fallen out of the piston groove when the piston was being removed from the rod or whilst being transported to the workbench. Have a good look around the bike and the shed. Maybe it's not in the crankcase.

[-deuced-]

What did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?

[Armin]

Did you try to fish that part of the ring with a magnet tool like Frisco suggested? A wrist pin circlip once fell into the residual oil of the flywheel housing when I installed new pistons. I used a magnet salvaged from a defunct harddisk and that worked perfectly.

Armin.

[Adam76]

do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

    that's what I'd do

Hey FSG, I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge. He said that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.

[Adam76]

What did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?

Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.

He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.

I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.

It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget 

[Adam76]

Did you try to fish that part of the ring with a magnet tool like Frisco suggested? A wrist pin circlip once fell into the residual oil of the flywheel housing when I installed new pistons. I used a magnet salvaged from a defunct harddisk and that worked perfectly.

Armin.

No luck yet, but I'm still fishin' 

[Adam76]

Here's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean.  This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it.  It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea.  You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas.  Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find.  If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes.  Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail.  Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.

Good hunting and best wishes for your success.

Thanks kd, if I cant get it with the magnet, this may be what I'll have to do.
Cheers

[Adam76]

Anyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? 

Thanks Frisco, I'm wondering what type of magnet you've got there in your set up? 
My magnet doesn't seem strong enough...

[wfolarry]

What did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?

Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.

He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.

I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.

It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget 

It should clean up going to a big bore.
Cylinders aren't hard to find here. Most shops have a few extra sets lying around.

[14Frisco]

Thanks Frisco, I'm wondering what type of magnet you've got there in your set up? 
My magnet doesn't seem strong enough...

I got them from RadioShack way back - 64-1888 - 1 1/8" ceramic magnets in a 5-pack. I am sure you can find something similar in AUSland, maybe on eBay.
Make sure the stick is sturdy and that you attach the magnet well - you wouldn't want the magnet to come off down in the crankcase when you are fishing around.

[speedzter]

Jaycar magnet

These (above link) are very strong, maybe too strong ! . Wrap it in insulation tape and use a strong wire

[-deuced-]

Did the machinist say anything about being able to supply another another cylinder and stick with 95"? Did you show him the piston? Did he comment on it's serviceability? Is there any damage to the piston groove? Can he supply rings?

Check your magnet on remaining oil rail to get a feel for it.

[Adam76]

What did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?

Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.

He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.

I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.

It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget 

It should clean up going to a big bore.
Cylinders aren't hard to find here. Most shops have a few extra sets lying around.

Thanks Larry, so going to 97" should be ok with my damaged cylinder?
Cheers

[Adam76]

Jaycar magnet

These (above link) are very strong, maybe too strong ! . Wrap it in insulation tape and use a strong wire

👍 thanks. 

[Adam76]

Did the machinist say anything about being able to supply another another cylinder and stick with 95"? Did you show him the piston? Did he comment on it's serviceability? Is there any damage to the piston groove? Can he supply rings?

Check your magnet on remaining oil rail to get a feel for it.

Yes, that's one option - get hold of another virgin bore cylinder and re-use the same piston with a news set of rings.... this would be the last expensive option. 
He didn't specifically say the piston was serviceable or not, but I can always go and get it looked at again. 
Cheers