Engine problems after 95" build part II - help needed

[JSD]

Yes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.

Scotty, should I just go the next size up pilot jet? (48)  Or do you recommend shimming the needle first?
Thanks

I fit 48 . Put sum NGK iridiums in as well. Go out a put some Ks up then have another look as rings are just bedding into cylinders. 

[Adam76]

I watched Kevin Baxter's you tube and a few others on reading plugs, mine sure do look lean compared to what they're showing is a good colour...
I hope the lean condition hasn't affected the ring seal and break in process as I've already done over 50  miles with this current set up.

[Scotty]

Yes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.

Scotty, should I just go the next size up pilot jet? (48)  Or do you recommend shimming the needle first?
Thanks

Pilot jet just does idle and then it transitions to needle.
So start by shimming the needle and then check the plugs again.

[smoserx1]

I watched Kevin Baxter's you tube and a few others on reading plugs, mine sure do look lean compared to what they're showing is a good colour...
I hope the lean condition hasn't affected the ring seal and break in process as I've already done over 50  miles with this current set up.

My experience is way more that 50 miles are required for plugs to develop meaningful color.  I don't see any problems with the photos of the plugs you posted, but it is next to impossible to diagnose stuff like this from a picture.  My bike came from the factory with a 42 pilot jet and my plug insulators looked snow white for thousands of miles till I finally re jetted the carburetor after installing different mufflers etc and it did not harm the break in one bit.  I would try to dial in that ignition next to improve any sluggishness.  A 48 jet is awfully rich IMO.  I have tried one, always smelled gas at idle, and remember being too rich can wash upper cylinder lube away in addition to causing carbon in the combustion chamber.  Take baby steps dialing this stuff in...always one modification at a time.

[kd]

At 50 miles you can consider the rings bedded and broken in. IMO color wise, your plugs look normal for today's modern gas.  Plug reading is no longer as easy because of lack of color change. It takes extreme conditions to come away from the white tone.  This has been discussed here before that an AFR gauge is the only way to know what you have going on.

[Hossamania]

I'm with these guys, a 48 is pretty rich, start with the needle shim.
I run a 46 with modified heads, though it is a 44 carb as opposed to the 40 you have. I tried a 48 and it lasted 10 miles before I pulled it back out.
I have also had thousands of miles on plugs that come out white from lean before resetting and not had problems, but you do want to dial it in now.
Tuning is fun!

[Don D]

The 46 is an appropriate pilot for most with a CV40 with stock needle and main. Needle shimmed as explained. Assumptions are no other mods from stock, float level stock and properly adjusted, E10 or pure gasoline and no customer added additives. The mistake some make is adjusting the low speed screw by internet advice at "X number of turns". Adjust it to best idle and lean drop method (google). The mixture on this build is not that far off, the timing and heat range of plug is off however. I see this on the ground strap and the plugs' threads. Too hot.

Are you running pump gas and no additives? You need to in order to get a proper read plus steady state provides best results not a lot of stop and go riding.

[Adam76]

At 50 miles you can consider the rings bedded and broken in. IMO color wise, your plugs look normal for today's modern gas.  Plug reading is no longer as easy because of lack of color change. It takes extreme conditions to come away from the white tone.  This has been discussed here before that an AFR gauge is the only way to know what you have going on.

Thanks, I agree.
I'm booked in now at the local Indy who has a dyno and will do a quick basic AFR check for me.

[kd]

Great.  That'll let you know here you're at and give you a target if necessary.

[Adam76]

The 46 is an appropriate pilot for most with a CV 40 stock needle and main.... mixture on this build is not that far off, the timing and heat range of plug is off however. I see this on the ground strap and the plugs' threads. Too hot.

Are you running pump gas and no additives? You need to in order to get a proper read plus steady state provides best results not a lot of stop and go riding.

Thanks HD, to answer your questions I'm running the CV velocity needle not the stock needle and the main is not stock either, it's a 195.

The timing is off as you have stated, so I need to advance it right?
What do you mean by heart range of the plug, what plug do you suggest? NGK iridium?

Lastly, yes I'm running basic premium pump gas with NO additives.

Thanks.

[Don D]

I can't comment on the jetting,  a sniffer will reveal more. The stock motorcycle had a plenty rich main and needle combination, was that way so emissions calibrated low speeds kept from burning down on a long hard pull at higher speeds.
Google spark plug heat range. The numeral in the part number designates that. Until the heat range of the plug is brought down one or two steps decent timing observations on the ground strap are not available.  This forum is probably not the best place to research proper spark plug reading and timing principles for maximum torque. Responsive throttle is canceled to a certain extent if you have a cam with an early exhaust open like 60deg atdc. S&S 570 right? Even with high compression some torque is sent out the pipe on exhaust and that impacts throttle response.

[Adam76]

Update:

Got the bike on the dyno for a quick AFR evaluation.

Under normal riding conditions and rpm up to 3500 it was between 12 and 14.

He wouldn't go above 3500rpm and wouldn't give it too much load because it was a fresh build with less than 100 miles on it and that's his call.

Initially it was running lean, and he has to adjust the mixture screw 3.5 turns out to get the afr in the right range.

His advice was it's running fine, but if it was his bike he said he would try one pilot jet size up and re-dial the mixture screw back in starting at 2 turns out and playing around with it, and checking the plugs etc.

I asked if I should shim the CV velocity needle I have in there and he said no... Not sure why he was so definite on that one.

Anyway, should I do what he suggested and try a 48 pilot jet, or just leave it a it is? The plugs definitely look better now than they did before.

Thanks, and thanks again to all those who have generously helped me along with this build and all it's problems. Hopefully this will wrap things up.
Cheers

[kd]

I have always felt that if you are asking someone (that appears to know what they are doing and has the test equipment) which direction to go in, listen and give it a shot.  Put it back on the drum with a few more miles on it and check the results.  One change at a time.  FWIW and IMO the rings should be seated at the mileage you have on it but won't be happy if the mix is too far off. It sounds like you are making progress and that's good news.

[Ohio HD]

I would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.

[Adam76]

I would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.

Exactly, and that was my preference but it is his policy and he just wouldn't do it. Maybe he has had bad experiences or been burned before? Who knows but he is a very well respected tuner.

[Scotty]

So put a 48 in and adjust idle AFR screw and bike will be good.
Nothing like getting idle right and calling it good 

[HogMike]

I would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.

Exactly, and that was my preference but it is his policy and he just wouldn't do it. Maybe he has had bad experiences or been burned before? Who knows but he is a very well respected tuner.

The guy who did my tune has the same policy.
30k miles later, the engine is staying together and running strong.
I'm happy! 

[Adam76]

So put a 48 in and adjust idle AFR screw and bike will be good.
Nothing like getting idle right and calling it good 

Yeah, I get it. But he didn't call it good, he called it a "break in tune" because that's all he was willing to do on a fresh build.

I needed my AFR checked and that's the best / only way I could get it...

[Don D]

If you rode the bike there it is already broken in.

[kd]

    At 100 km's your there.  Many don't see it that way.  S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it.  I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.

[turboprop]

   At 100 km's your there.  Many don't see it that way.  S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it.  I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.

Monitored implies in real time. How is timing monitored on a dyno?

[kd]

   At 100 km's your there.  Many don't see it that way.  S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it.  I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.

Monitored implies in real time. How is timing monitored on a dyno?

Maybe poorly worded?  My point in the string was that if put on a dyno and tuned / broken in immediately instead of riding it blindfolded all of the parameters are in the control of the tuner and it will be actually safer.  As you know, when a mix is lean, timing can be fragile and the engine will not be as tolerant of timing as it is with the ideal AFR.   

[Adam76]

   At 100 km's your there.  Many don't see it that way.  S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it.  I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.

Agree 100%.
But he simply would not do a full tune until 1000km and he is the only well known tuner for Harley's in this town, especially for bikes that are older and have carby and external timing modules...

[kd]

You went to him to get an answer to a question and got it.  For him to get the information for that answer took time and equipment at the cost of $120.00.  It moved you forward and probably money well spent.

He's obviously not interested in taking the responsibility for a complete tune "including break in" fresh right off the lift.  That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't know what he is doing with the end tune.  Like some other tuners he quotes the "bring it back in 1000 miles" statement.  If you make that distance maybe he won't blow it up?     You may have dodged a bullet by going to him.  Many tuners offer a rich setting and send you away.

I guess you now have to decide how you get to a full tune.  If you do what he suggested and don't confirm the AFR is OK, whose responsibility is that if it causes damage?   You may have to cut a deal with him to recheck it on the drum and then put some miles on it.

[Adam76]

You went to him to get an answer to a question and got it.  For him to get the information for that answer took time and equipment at the cost of $120.00.  It moved you forward and probably money well spent.

He's obviously not interested in taking the responsibility for a complete tune "including break in" fresh right off the lift.  That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't know what he is doing with the end tune.  Like some other tuners he quotes the "bring it back in 1000 miles" statement.  If you make that distance maybe he won't blow it up?     You may have dodged a bullet by going to him.  Many tuners offer a rich setting and send you away.

I guess you now have to decide how you get to a full tune.  If you do what he suggested and don't confirm the AFR is OK, whose responsibility is that if it causes damage?   You may have to cut a deal with him to recheck it on the drum and then put some miles on it.

Thanks, yeah I did get what I paid for in a way..   it's just not enough info.

I'll try and talk him into putting it back on the drum for more info like afr at 1/4  1/2 and 3/4 throttle position up to at least 4000rpm, which is realistically real world riding.
And also a proper look at timing on the DTT ignition.

I'll post back when I get some more results.