Engine problems after 95" build part II - help needed

[Adam76]

While I'm ssorting out the piston / cylinder issue, anyone's got any good methods of cleaning out the exhaust port of my cyl head? It's pretty fouled up with carbon and oil deposits.
Brake cleaner? Degreaser? 
I don't want to damage the valve seal. 
Cheers
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[-deuced-]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?

[speedzter]

Use a throttle body/carb cleaner and a tooth brush, but don't stress too much.

[Adam76]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?

Thanks mate, I'm at work but will have a really good look when I get home. I really hope it fell onto the lift or the floor. 

Cheers

[Adam76]

Use a throttle body/carb cleaner and a tooth brush, but don't stress too much.

Cool. Thanks 👍

[Adam76]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?

Yeah, so as luck has it I just happened to have cleaned down the lift and swept the floor of the workshop when the bike as running and I didn't know there was an issue.... I've had a good look and the broken piece of support rail is nowhere to be seen.

Should I be looking through my oil filter and camchest? Do you think it could have made its way there?

[-deuced-]

I thought you said it was blowing smoke from first start.
Take both oil rails off the piston. Place one on top of the other. That will give you an idea of the size of the missing piece. I reckon it fell off the piston during disassembly. I seriously doubt it made it's way through the engine into the oil filter. Or into the camchest.

Edit: post a pic of both oil rails to clarify the size of the missing piece

[Adam76]

I thought you said it was blowing smoke from first start.
Take both oil rails off the piston. Place one on top of the other. That will give you an idea of the size of the missing piece. I reckon it fell off the piston during disassembly. I seriously doubt it made it's way through the engine into the oil filter. Or into the camchest.

Edit: post a pic of both oil rails to clarify the size of the missing piece

OK, thanks. Thats good to know because yes it was fouling the rear cyl from first startup. And I put about 70 miles / 100kms on it before tearing it down. If it had gone through the camchest I would have know about it.

I've measured the missing piece of support rail and it's just under 20mm. I've checked the piston thoroughly and there is no sign of any of the broken piece/s.

I'm currently draining the oil and removing the filter.

I had a go at removing the sump plug, man that thing is tight, and I don't want to use a breaker bar on it incase I break something else!

[FSG]

yes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...

although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ...   it might be enough

you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed 

[Adam76]

yes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...

although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ...   it might be enough

you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed 

Yes, good point. Thanks. 👍

[Adam76]

I drained the oil tonight and pulled the filter. I can see where at least some of my oil rail went...  it's not pretty.
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[-deuced-]

Oh no. Sorry to see that.

[Appowner]

Ouch!

I'm anal about these things but I think a complete tear down is called for so everything can be cleaned properly.  Anything less and you could get lucky.  But then again the evidence suggests otherwise.

The really sad part is you guys are just starting your riding season.

[Adam76]

Ouch!

I'm anal about these things but I think a complete tear down is called for so everything can be cleaned properly.  Anything less and you could get lucky.  But then again the evidence suggests otherwise.

The really sad part is you guys are just starting your riding season.

Yep, beautiful riding season here at the moment... But that's not worrying me as much as what is happening. Are you suggesting a complete tear down as in split the cases? 
Oh man 

[Adam76]

Oh no. Sorry to see that.

Yeah, not good...
What would your next move be of it were your bike?

Thanks. 

[motorhogman]

You asked.. so,  If it was my bike it would be completely torn down and start over from scratch.. That's way to much metal out of your oil filter for me to consider flushing the lower end and and putting it back together. Can't imagine the oil pump is OK ? Lifters , etc,.. I've been watching your thread from day one. While I'm no expert at building HD engines I have a life time of mechanical experience and there is no way I would continue trying to save this engine without complete disassembly and inspection. Man.. I feel your pain.. This is really a bummer. Wish you the best of luck how ever you decide to go. 

[D-1]

If the metal is in the filter it has been thru the pump. The cam chest need to come apart to inspect damage and the whole engine really needs to be stripped to be cleaned and inspected thouroghly. Imagine fixing the damage you can see, cleaning the best you can without stripping and then a random piece of metal gets into the pump again and does damage to what you just fixed, you wont be happy Jan 

[Adam76]

You asked.. so,  If it was my bike it would be completely torn down and start over from scratch.. That's way to much metal out of your oil filter for me to consider flushing the lower end and and putting it back together. Can't imagine the oil pump is OK ? Lifters , etc,.. I've been watching your thread from day one. While I'm no expert at building HD engines I have a life time of mechanical experience and there is no way I would continue trying to save this engine without complete disassembly and inspection. Man.. I feel your pain.. This is really a bummer. Wish you the best of luck how ever you decide to go.

Thanks man, yeah it sucks....

Do I need any specialty tools for the job? I've never gone into the bottom end before. 
Thanks  for your advice. 

[Adam76]

If the metal is in the filter it has been thru the pump. The cam chest need to come apart to inspect damage and the whole engine really needs to be stripped to be cleaned and inspected thouroghly. Imagine fixing the damage you can see, cleaning the best you can without stripping and then a random piece of metal gets into the pump again and does damage to what you just fixed, you wont be happy Jan 

Thanks D-1,  will take the camchest apart and inspect. At least I have good experience doing that. 😂
My oil pump was in spec but kinda showing signs of wear and tear when I put it together with the CR575 cams and new tensioners..... maybe be a good time to upgrade? Or just a thorough clean and reassemble the oem pump?
Cheers

[smoserx1]

I'm no expert either but I have done a top end job on my bike.  At the beginning of this thread  there was speculation where the missing part of the oil ring rail went.  Now we know.  Apparently into the crankcase.  The contaminants would have at a minimum gone  into the scavenge side of the pump, through passages in the cam plate where the relief valve is and into the dirty side of the filter.  You didn't say if you cut the filter open, but if the filter was clogged enough so it's own bypass opened  that oil went everywhere else.  You absolutely need a factory service manual because the engine section should have an explanation with pictures describing everywhere in that engine the oil goes.  Since it seems to me the piece of oil ring went from the bottom of the rear jug into the crankcase everything in there is suspect for contamination including both crankshaft bearings and both connecting rod bearings, and I don't see any that could ever be cleaned by flushing, so just like all the others I would say that engine needs to be totally torn down (and I mean every part of it that oil can go) and meticulously cleaned/inspected/replaced as necessary.  Sorry I know that is not what you want to hear but that is my thoughts.  Just inspecting the cam chest won't do.

[kouack]

Plus the oil tank would need to be inspected/cleaned!

[Norton Commando]

yes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...

although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ...  it might be enough

you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed

[Lambda]

Oh no. Sorry to see that.

Yeah, not good...
What would your next move be of it were your bike?

Thanks.

I had a 124 on my shop that had a horrible tune up to the point that destroyed the crank, the entire engine was filled with metallic debris, both aluminum from the pistons and metal from who knows what.


The crank was toasted and had to disassemble EVERYTHING, swap bearings over new ones in case the debris was stuck inside them, oil pump was trashed and the oil tank was full of metallic crap.

You got a good work ahead my friend, if you dont clean everything you will end up spending more money in the near future.

[motorhogman]

Being no expert I rely on the experts for certain things.  I've done a few shovel head complete rebuilds, Helped a friend with an Evo.. Never even had a head off of a TC engine. Not that I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go where you have. For me here's where I let the tried and true Indy take over.. I give them the bottom end assembled minus the cam chest components and I take the pistons off. They get the jugs and heads also. I have them do what's needed in the lower end, heads and jugs. I have them assemble the lower end. Some will ask if you want to put the case halves together yourself. I say let them do it.  They take care of the jugs boring, honing and piston fit.  I use what ever pistons and rings they suggest.  I have always assembled the top end my self.  I have had literally 0 problems this way. Find yourself a good Indy and it will be worth the $$$$ spent. Just my 02 from a guy that doesn't do this stuff every day.

[Adam76]

Plus the oil tank would need to be inspected/cleaned!

Yep,  thanks. Will do 👍