Good, Good, Good, Good Vibrations...... NOT!

[JW113]

Well here it is, end of fall and staring at winter, and me with too much free time to think about stuff. I just love riding my '77 Electra Glide, but little think that has always bugged me, above 65mph the engine vibes start getting pretty bad. If I could just fix that one little thing.... Perfection!

A couple years ago when I found my Evo Softail cases had cracked, while I was fixing that I sent the flywheel assembly to Darkhorse for them to do their magic. What the heck, right? Worth a shot. What I got back simply amazed me. The "before" Softail was what I considered the typical rigid mount big twin, vibs somewhat acceptable below 60mph or so, but wind 'em up them up to 80-90+, not a whole lot of fun. In fact, was the reason I bought a Road King in '04 and gave away my '91 Softail. However, after getting the Darkhorse treatment, this bike is now smooth as satin at any speed you want to ride it. Amazing, I tell ya. Mirrors are clear and steady, none of that hand numbing vibration coming through the bars. Love it.

So, I called Darkhorse and asked if I sent them my Shovelhead flywheels, could I expect the same results as I did my Softail? The answer I got back was a question back to me: Why would you not expect it? OK then, I'm all in.

So I spent my Thanksgiving time off tearing the wheels out of my Shovelhead. And frankly, am very glad I did.

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First problem I found was a broken top motor mount. Hmm, excessive vibration, or something I did wrong, or maybe both?

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Then I noticed the carb support bracket was also broken, and the carb was hanging on by the compliance fittings. Yikes.

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And lastly, and I was kind of expecting this actually, one of the cam lobes didn't look real nice. Some of you may recall a post on HTT a while back advising to take heed if you and installed a set of <name withheld> aftermarket tappets and tappet blocks, which were reported to have gotten the tappet board angels wrong in any direct? Well, it appears I was victim of this. Guess we're going back to stock.

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So tomorrow, off the flywheels go to Wisconsin. In the mean time, I picked up a set of +.040" KB 8.5:1 Forged pistons, which are a little lighter than stock. Also have a nice used Andrews #2 cam I'll install. I have an S&S top motor mount on the way, and will fab up a much beefier carb mount, probably drill the rear rocker box and secure it across both boxes. On the fence about installing an Ultima single fire ignition set up, but what the heck, christmas is just around the corner so merry christmas to Johnny I think.

-JW

[Ohio HD]

Come on JW, just a small 4-1/2" stroke?     

[JW113]

Heh, heh. I have a set of 4-5/8 wheels that I considered for about this -><- long, but reality set in. And the reality is, it don't need it! It's a two wheeled tractor! The other reality is, I HAVE a hot rod (113") and I never ride it! Should put it out on the curb with the key in it and a "Take Me" sign.
 

-JW

[2017FLHTK]

JW113, are you gonna have the cases modified for a big bore kit while you have everything apart?

[JW113]

Nope, it's stock bore (+.040) and stroke for a 74" motor. Even with the broken stuff reported above, it was a fine running bike. The only complaint was high speed vibration. Boring/stroking will only make that more difficult to control, IMO. The short stroke 74 is a great running mill, it has all the power and more for they way I ride it, no reason that I can see to mess with it.

-JW

[david lee]

id like to see a pic of the flh they look better than the later stuff. dont see em anymore here in australia exept at my hd mech shop good luck with your fix jw

[JW113]

Question to the pro guys, if you don't mind. Now that I have the engine apart, I'm considering removing the cylinder studs in the case, bolting back together, and using a piece of 320 sand paper taped to a piece of thick glass to surface the case where the cylinder base gaskets seat. Even with Cometic steel/viton gaskets, they both weep a little.

What do you think? Good/bad idea?

thanks,
JW

[Ohio HD]

If you mean by Pro, I was once paid to rebuild motors....

If it were mine, I'd take it to someone who can mount the cases with the crank bore perfectly horizontal. Then run an indictor across the cylinder mount surface. Then if needed have them clean them up to be exactly 90° to the crank centers.

The problem with blocking sanding anything is you probably will make high and low spots unless you have a way to sand the entire surface with a ridged block. Even then, you might set the cylinder mount surface off and be further away from 90°.

just my 2 cents.

[kd]

I agree.  If you haven't already watched it, watch the video by Tom Reiser on decking cases and why it's done. The video is with an earlier TC case set but I'll bet it is absolutely relevant to your needs.  You will see how little of a vrience it takes to cause a seeping gasket.  Like Ohio said, you can introduce a variance or make the one you have worse by hand working it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0ON4Aa7KQ

[turboprop]

Question to the pro guys, if you don't mind. Now that I have the engine apart, I'm considering removing the cylinder studs in the case, bolting back together, and using a piece of 320 sand paper taped to a piece of thick glass to surface the case where the cylinder base gaskets seat. Even with Cometic steel/viton gaskets, they both weep a little.

What do you think? Good/bad idea?

thanks,
JW

Not the worse idea, and it has been done with success. I am prepared to do this with just about every FXR primary drive and trans case I touch. Like your trouble head, FXR are old and have had a lot of opportunity for 'experts' to make 'improvements'. I have a very large piece of 2" glass that sits in its own drawer in a Vidmar cabinet.

If you do this, use some 600 or 800 grit wet/dry paper for aluminum and cover the flange surfaces with machinist dye prior to lapping. Use a figure 8 pattern and ensure that no area of the flange goes off of the sand paper while lapping. Machine would be better but not always practical or needed.

Best of luck.

[JW113]

Well I went ahead with it. Turned out 'ok', but there was a spot on each spigot at the apex that was a bit deep, even after sanding quite a bit.

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I decided to call it good, Don't want to take it down any further. The front one is under .001" deep, the rear just over .001". Will put a dollop of Permatex #1 under the gasket on those two spots at assembly.

I used a digital level and checked as best I could if anything was obviously out of alignment. With the cam gear bay at a perfect 90.0deg, the cylinder decks are 0.0deg, and 22.5deg. So I don't think I got it wildly out of alignment, although this kind of measurement is crude of course. And it is an AMF era motor, so who knows how close it was before? Clearly the spigot surfaces were not very true to each other, should have taken a before pic I guess. Take my word for it, they were a mess.

-JW

[Buglet]

  That looks like it should make a better seal. Like you say it's probably better then it was when new.

[JW113]

OK I caved. I took a carpenter's square across the timing surface and the cylinder base surfaces. Was not thrilled with what I saw. So, the cases are at the shop awaiting to get squared up. I actually looked for a set of Ultima cases, figured what the heck, but evidently they are unobtainium right now. Another victim of the supply chain malstrom? I sent a message to Jireh inquiring when they expect more stock, but no response. And S&S is out of my budget range. Oh well...

-JW

[72fl]

Jw carpenter squares are not the most accurate, I would try a regular quality square and see what you come up with if possible. (Starrett comes to mind)
If you know of local Machine shops, they will have a Variety of Starrett Squares.

[JW113]

Well it's a bit moot at this point, the cases are already at the shop. I figure if nothing else, I'll sleep better knowing the pistons aren't going up and down at a little bit of an angle.
 

-JW

[Ohio HD]

JW, I'd caution to ask the shop to see that the cam chest gasket surface is at 90° to the crankshaft horizontal plane. The crank is the deciding factor as to what is within angular tolerance.

I know in theory the gasket surface should be at 90° to the crankshaft, but I'd want to verify before machining from the cylinder base pads on the case.

Just my 2 cents

[kd]

 

[turboprop]

JW, I'd caution to ask the shop to see that the cam chest gasket surface is at 90° to the crankshaft horizontal plane. The crank is the deciding factor as to what is within angular tolerance.

I know in theory the gasket surface should be at 90° to the crankshaft, but I'd want to verify before machining from the cylinder base pads on the case.

Just my 2 cents

The machine shop action for this it to have the bushings in the cam cover line honed with the case halves.

[kd]

   What does that have to do with confirming the cam plate mounting surface is at 90* to the crankshaft horizontal plane before indicating the deck surface for trueing?

[Ohio HD]

JW, I'd caution to ask the shop to see that the cam chest gasket surface is at 90° to the crankshaft horizontal plane. The crank is the deciding factor as to what is within angular tolerance.

I know in theory the gasket surface should be at 90° to the crankshaft, but I'd want to verify before machining from the cylinder base pads on the case.

Just my 2 cents

The machine shop action for this it to have the bushings in the cam cover line honed with the case halves.

I agree for a straight bushing to pinion shaft.

Decking the cases, I'd use the crank horizontal plane as the measure to assure that I was decking the cases correctly and parallel to the crank. 

[JW113]

Well, I have the motor all back together, all the component compatibility issues resolved, and fired the thing up on Monday. Just a couple short-ish runs in the garage to get it warm, then shut down. Yesterday I took it on a couple 2 mile spins around the neighborhood. And now, one more issue to figure out.

Both times yesterday it spewed a big pile of oil out the breather. After getting back the garage, it was dripping ever so slightly, probably the surge of oil from start up. So... wet sumping? I put a piece of plexiglass over the oil tank hole and fired it up, oil flowing quite well from the return, so the scavenge seems to be working OK.

Today I did some troubleshooting. I pulled the drain plug (no metal chips on it) from the crankcase, got about 8 oz out. Seems a little high, was expecting more like 3 or 4. I looked at the tappet filter, no debris. I pulled the check valve ball, no debris on that either. Cleaned the well with some industrial Q-tips, then gave the seat a few easy tap-tap-taps with an old check ball. I fired it up, let it run for a few minutes, no oil blow but I had drained the crankcase already so no surprise there.

Will let it sit overnight and see what happens tomorrow. Maybe looking an an issue in the cam chest. Damn.

-JW

[kd]

If you don't recall that happening before it's probably related to the rebuild.  Any change in parts of the oil pump  or venting?  Do you think realigning the cam cover bushing may be causing it to dump more oil and it's overwhelming the pump return? Is this the engine with the breather valve debacle? 

[Ohio HD]

Maybe a sheared keyway on the return side?

[JW113]

10-4, the very same. This now has a new set of S&S cases, S&S oil pump, stock nose cone that I align reamed to the S&S case (because the cam was binding up). When I checked the return flow, it was coming back into the tank like a fire hose, so the scavenge side is clearly working. I will pop the nose cone and make sure it's a pre-92 gasket came with the kit, but everything else in the kit was definitely Shovelhead. But the take home point to me is that it does this at start up, and not while it's running. So not sure how an internal leak would explain that.

-JW

[JW113]

Maybe a sheared keyway on the return side?

Am 100% the scavenge is working. Seen it first hand. And that would not explain wet sumping, would it? Also, the tank level has not gone down at all, so the oil is not all ending up in the motor then getting blown out, it's making it's way back to the tank.

Bummer.

-JW

[Ohio HD]

Maybe a sheared keyway on the return side?

Am 100% the scavenge is working. Seen it first hand. And that would not explain wet sumping, would it? Also, the tank level has not gone down at all, so the oil is not all ending up in the motor then getting blown out, it's making it's way back to the tank.

Bummer.

-JW

You bet if the scavenge side of the pump is screwed up you will wet sump. I had a Pan Head once that had a sheared key, and would catch and spin the gear "sometimes".

[JW113]

Hey no question that if it's not scavenging, the sump is going to fill up with oil. I'll through pulling the oil pump cover on the list, and have a look.

thanks,

-JW

[turboprop]

Well, I have the motor all back together, all the component compatibility issues resolved, and fired the thing up on Monday. Just a couple short-ish runs in the garage to get it warm, then shut down. Yesterday I took it on a couple 2 mile spins around the neighborhood. And now, one more issue to figure out.

Both times yesterday it spewed a big pile of oil out the breather. After getting back the garage, it was dripping ever so slightly, probably the surge of oil from start up. So... wet sumping? I put a piece of plexiglass over the oil tank hole and fired it up, oil flowing quite well from the return, so the scavenge seems to be working OK.

Today I did some troubleshooting. I pulled the drain plug (no metal chips on it) from the crankcase, got about 8 oz out. Seems a little high, was expecting more like 3 or 4. I looked at the tappet filter, no debris. I pulled the check valve ball, no debris on that either. Cleaned the well with some industrial Q-tips, then gave the seat a few easy tap-tap-taps with an old check ball. I fired it up, let it run for a few minutes, no oil blow but I had drained the crankcase already so no surprise there.

Will let it sit overnight and see what happens tomorrow. Maybe looking an an issue in the cam chest. Damn.

-JW

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

[david lee]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

[capn]

I would keep riding it.Drain it before riding use break in you prefer.I like the wide open throttle then close throttle method.

[JW113]

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

You mean like this?

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No, I did not know how much while it was rolling down the street, only when at a stand still. But know I do, and very little. The bottom of the bottle is barely covered after a 5 mile ride.

However, after I did the check ball inspection yesterday, I fired it up twice (about and hour apart), no oil spew. I let it sit overnight, fired it up this morning, again no spew. And then this afternoon, before going on a break in ride, no spew. So apparently, the blow piles of oil at start up seems to be gone. Since it doesn't do that no more, and has just a bit of carry over while riding (chalking that up to fresh build), I'm going to gamble that the scavenge gear key is not sheared, and not pull the pump apart.

What I did see yesterday when I rode it, the steady state cruise jetting was quite lean (14.4) with a 48 pilot jet. I put 50 pilot in this morning, now getting ~13.6, more or less about perfect. Would like to see closer to 13.8 but will deal with that later. And idle adjusted to 13.2. I'm on the fence when to start doing full throttle pulls to set the main and needle jets, not for some time yet. I only have 10 miles on it so far...

-JW

[JW113]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

It's the same here. You are correct, though, we are lucky. Last thing you want is to let a dealership mechanic touch an old antique like this. Same goes for Evos...

-JW

[david lee]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

It's the same here. You are correct, though, we are lucky. Last thing you want is to let a dealership mechanic touch an old antique like this. Same goes for Evos...

-JW

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

[Ohio HD]

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

Shoot, I thought you were going to say you were lucky that you had HTT....     

[Hossamania]

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

Shoot, I thought you were going to say you were lucky that you had HTT....     

 

[JW113]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

[Ohio HD]

Yeah, we have a good group here.   

A lot of variance in background and experiences. It's all helpful.

[Hossamania]

My skill is trying to stay out of the way.

[turboprop]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

Why thank you. It has taken years of professional coaching to develop this level of indifference to inconsequential minutia.

Now if only I could find someone that could really help me identify what is the best oil and lifter combination for my 2017 green Fatgut with Ness handlebars and Stupid grips (red). I also need some help deciding which foot to put down first at stop lights. I think it should be the left foot, but some of the members of my local HOG say to always put down the right foot first. A certified Harley mechanic said it was the best. Please help.

[Hossamania]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

Why thank you. It has taken years of professional coaching to develop this level of indifference to inconsequential minutia.

Now if only I could find someone that could really help me identify what is the best oil and lifter combination for my 2017 green Fatgut with Ness handlebars and Stupid grips (red). I also need some help deciding which foot to put down first at stop lights. I think it should be the left foot, but some of the members of my local HOG say to always put down the right foot first. A certified Harley mechanic said it was the best. Please help.

Now that made me laugh!
I do know the answer to the foot placement issue, but I hesitate to offer the answer because it opens such a floodgate of inaccurate info gleaned from the internet.

[turboprop]

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

You mean like this?

You cannot see attachments on this board.

 

No, I did not know how much while it was rolling down the street, only when at a stand still. But know I do, and very little. The bottom of the bottle is barely covered after a 5 mile ride.

However, after I did the check ball inspection yesterday, I fired it up twice (about and hour apart), no oil spew. I let it sit overnight, fired it up this morning, again no spew. And then this afternoon, before going on a break in ride, no spew. So apparently, the blow piles of oil at start up seems to be gone. Since it doesn't do that no more, and has just a bit of carry over while riding (chalking that up to fresh build), I'm going to gamble that the scavenge gear key is not sheared, and not pull the pump apart.

What I did see yesterday when I rode it, the steady state cruise jetting was quite lean (14.4) with a 48 pilot jet. I put 50 pilot in this morning, now getting ~13.6, more or less about perfect. Would like to see closer to 13.8 but will deal with that later. And idle adjusted to 13.2. I'm on the fence when to start doing full throttle pulls to set the main and needle jets, not for some time yet. I only have 10 miles on it so far...

-JW

I think I recall you fitting a CV to a trouble head and doing a bunch of tuning with an AFR gauge to dial it in. If this is the same bike, I bet the AFR change (Leaner) is due to the improved cylinder seal. Much love the AFR gauge.

[JW113]

Almost. That was all done to an Ironhead, the first bike I ever used an AFR on. And yes, thank you for twisting my arm hard enough to finally get one of those. Has turned out to be my favorite piece of diagnostic equipment.

 

-JW

[JW113]

So I've gotten 100 miles on this rebuild, and today did 50 miles opening it up to 70 mph for a few short bits. The whole point of this rebuild project was to get the vibration under control at reasonably high speed freeway speeds. Have to say at 70, it felt a whole lot smoother than it use to. I didn't sustain it at that for long, but wow. Very nice! Felt similar to my Evo Softail which feels like silk up to 100 or more. Can't wait to take it up to 80, but I'm going to go easy on it for another 500 miles, then see how it goes.

I dropped the oil at 50 miles, cut open the filter and had a look. Nothing of concern, some very fine micro chips and iron "mud", along with some white/yellow-ish stuff that looked like packing material flakes or something. Also saw some blue fragments of what I believe is Hylomar that oozed out and washed away from a couple of gaskets that I used it on. Wow. Cool. I think...

The Daytona ARF is indicating very rich at low throttle, and lean at mid. I was surprised at how much shimming the needle made to the low throttle and cruise setting. And yet, at higher speed, it seems to be a bit lean. Need to get the break in stuff done then dial in the jetting. It can dean with a bit lean at light throttle for now.

My little 50 mile ride today today was totally awesome. This bike is so sweet, suspension is comfy, it handles better than a Sloptail, and is just begging to take some throttle. 400 more miles, and it will get it!

-JW

[Hossamania]

Glad to hear it's working so well. Nice job

[72fl]

Glad all your hard work and determination worked out JW, you were sure tested on this one.

[JW113]

Well I've now got 400 miles on the rebuild. Been taking it out for 50 mile rides on the freeways, doing 55-65 with some bumps up to 70. And doing some carb tuning as well. Even with shimming the N72S needle, I could not get the AFR down to the high 13s-14 range. Was between 14.4 and 15.1, depending on speed and load at steady state. Just for grins, I dropped in that dreaded '88 sportster needle, the N65C. That now has it around 14.2-14.4, still kind of lean but great for economy I suppose. I'm not seeing any detrimental side effects from that, the heads are running nice and cool (210degF), and the jugs right at 300F. Oil is getting up to 250F, a bit high but it always has run on the hot side, and I have no oil cooler. I'm a little worried what it's going to get to when the weather gets up into the 80s. So I guess I'll drop a shim under the N65C and see what that does.

For the first 150 miles, it would blop out a pretty good pool of that white oil from the breather after a ride. Water from blowby mixed with oil. But it began to taper off, and after 300 miles, no more. So the rings are getting bedded in. Another 100 miles and I'll drop the oil, then start tuning it for WFO.

-JW

[JW113]

I was able to do some full throttle main jet tuning this weekend, just wrapped it up. Was quite shocked at the first WOT pull, and saw AFR was 17.1! Yikes. And that was with a 180 main jet. Since it was so drastically lean, I swapped it out for 210 and took it for another spin. Dropped it to about 14.5, still too lean for WOT. Back to the garage for a quick exchange for a 230, and now am down to about 12.5. It was quite evident that this made a huge difference in the torque the engine was now making, as it has created it's own new problem to fix: the clutch is slipping at WOT! Never had that problem before, but then I've clearly never had it jetted properly for maximum power either. Since the clutch would slip, it is not accelerating as it would with a solid clutch. So, I guess I've got more fun to come after I solve this.

The old stock clutch has been working great for me, and never gave me any reason to get rid of it. Until now. So... Rivera or APM Pro Clutch I guess it will be. I was also quite amazed to see this thing wanted a 230 main jet, that is huge. But then again, it's a Shovelhead, and rich burn hemi combustion chamber with essentially zero quench/swirl to eliminate lean pockets. So only option is to throw more fuel than is needed compared to a lean burn chamber like Evo & later.

So any opinion regarding Rivera or APM? They look identical, and designed by the same guy right?

-JW

[Ohio HD]

If the clutch is still all stock. I'd get a good set of clutch plates and new steel discs, new high quality clutch springs and an aluminum pressure plate. I bet that solves the slip and then some.

We ran the setup I mention with mild strokers and never had any issues with slippage. One of the biggest issues with the OEM clutch is the stamped steel pressure plate. The spring pressure doesn't get applied equally around the clutch disc's full area.

[crock]

If the clutch is still all stock. I'd get a good set of clutch plates and new steel discs, new high quality clutch springs and an aluminum pressure plate. I bet that solves the slip and then some.

We ran the setup I mention with mild strokers and never had any issues with slippage. One of the biggest issues with the OEM clutch is the stamped steel pressure plate. The spring pressure doesn't get applied equally around the clutch disc's full area.

Went this route with Barnette medium springs Part# 501-66-10041 and kevlar plates with the aluminum pressure plate. It looks like now the have this set up Harley Davidson Extra Plate Clutch Kit- Kevlar Part# 304-30-10005. I'm running 93" 2 up a lot of the time and NO slip.

[JW113]

Well, I do have new steels, new Alto Red Eagle friction discs, an aluminum pressure plate, and a new set of matched "blue" springs. New meaning about 2000 miles ago. I guess I could try putting some turns on the pressure plate nuts and see if that helps. But after hearing all the ranting and raving about the joys of the Rivera/APM type diaphragm clutch, I'm thinking... why not? I'm not going to be one of those guys that dies with money still in his bank account.

 

-JW

[turboprop]

I was able to do some full throttle main jet tuning this weekend, just wrapped it up. Was quite shocked at the first WOT pull, and saw AFR was 17.1! Yikes. And that was with a 180 main jet. Since it was so drastically lean, I swapped it out for 210 and took it for another spin. Dropped it to about 14.5, still too lean for WOT. Back to the garage for a quick exchange for a 230, and now am down to about 12.5. It was quite evident that this made a huge difference in the torque the engine was now making, as it has created it's own new problem to fix: the clutch is slipping at WOT! Never had that problem before, but then I've clearly never had it jetted properly for maximum power either. Since the clutch would slip, it is not accelerating as it would with a solid clutch. So, I guess I've got more fun to come after I solve this.

The old stock clutch has been working great for me, and never gave me any reason to get rid of it. Until now. So... Rivera or APM Pro Clutch I guess it will be. I was also quite amazed to see this thing wanted a 230 main jet, that is huge. But then again, it's a Shovelhead, and rich burn hemi combustion chamber with essentially zero quench/swirl to eliminate lean pockets. So only option is to throw more fuel than is needed compared to a lean burn chamber like Evo & later.

So any opinion regarding Rivera or APM? They look identical, and designed by the same guy right?

-JW

I am convinced that many of the shovels that need rebuilding so often are not because they are shovels, but because they are not tuned properly. An AFR gauge in mid 70's would have been a game changer for many.

[crock]

Well, I do have new steels, new Alto Red Eagle friction discs, an aluminum pressure plate, and a new set of matched "blue" springs. New meaning about 2000 miles ago. I guess I could try putting some turns on the pressure plate nuts and see if that helps. But after hearing all the ranting and raving about the joys of the Rivera/APM type diaphragm clutch, I'm thinking... why not? I'm not going to be one of those guys that dies with money still in his bank account.

 

-JW

I would try the red springs.

[JW113]

The blue ones are already pretty stiff at the clutch lever. Was hoping to go the other way!

I already ordered the APM clutch. Hopefully be here by Saturday.

-JW

[76shuvlinoff]

Late to the party but I've never regretted the Rivera Pro I put behind my 93"er.  Had over 30K miles on it when I replaced the discs and plates, which when measured were not that different than new. The new components did eliminate a grabbing issue I was beginning to have.

 JW,  in reading your thread I should probably locate  or buy an AFR meter.

[JW113]

I have to say, the Daytona Sensors AFR is the most useful tool that I have ever owned. Yes, tuning "by ear" is all well and good, and can probably get the tune somewhat "close", but damn... I am eternally amazed at how far off my 'by ear' tuning has been compared to actually measuring it with an AFR meter. All of the bikes that I've used it on have made impressive improvements in both power and mileage. The technology is here, why not use it?

-JW

[72fl]

I tell you JW Mark told me about the Rivera Pro/ American Prime years ago. I will always be thankful he told me about this as my clutch in the 72 was always grabbing and wanting to pull me through Stop signs. I had to tear it apart 3x every riding season and one day I Happened to find a $500 Bill laying under the Mattress on my Wife's side Honestly Best Improvement ever on the 72, always shifts like Butter

[tomfiii]

Broke my top mount on '79 was an oops, forgot spacer washer.

[JW113]

Well alrighty then! Pro-clutch installed, no more slip, and pulls like a Mac truck right up to 100mph now. Yay! Did some more WOT pulls, and still on the lean side, like 13.2. So will need to up the main jet even more. Yikes.

I was hoping the Pro-clutch would be as light or lighter on the lever as the stock clutch, but it is indeed not. It came with little bag of shims, but didn't have anything in the instructions what to do with them. Maybe I need to adjust something, will give them a call tomorrow. It is also on the grabby side, as in not as easy to feather as the stock clutch. But hey, it sure does not slip one iota so that is good.

-JW

[Hossamania]

Make sure your clutch cable and handle is good and lubed, unless the cable is Teflon lined, helps with the hard pull. I also find that sometimes with new clutches, it helps to put the front tire against a wall and slip the clutch a couple times to bed it in, helps with the grabbiness.
Glad you are liking the new clutch, I've got a Pro Clutch in my Twin Cam and it works very well. I do lube the cable often, every little bit helps to lessen the pull.

[76shuvlinoff]

JW, give it 200-300 miles. That grabbing should ease off. I don't recall doing anything with the shims but there should be something in the package about measuring the arc of the spring?

[JW113]

All good tips about the clutch cable, but I do indeed have a teflon lined cable, and I run a little teflon tri-flow oil down it periodically. And, the lever pull was fairly light before installing the Pro-clutch. Pretty sure it's the increased pressure of the diaphragm spring. No worries, I'll get used to it. On the plus side, it's nothing like the SE clutch in my Road King! And yes, let's see what happens with a few miles on it, hopefully get de-grab-a-fied.

cheers,
JW

[dbdevkc]

JW,

I've read this post and convo with interest because I just started tearing down my 76 shovel (FXE). And I have a couple questions:

- The flywheel/crank work you had done by Darkhorse - was that just remanufacture, just balance, blueprint/balance, ...?
- What model Daytona Sensors AFR are you using, and how is it installed?
- I am planning to replace tappets/blocks/pushrods, but... "Some of you may recall a post on HTT a while back advising to take heed if you and installed a set of <name withheld> aftermarket tappets and tappet blocks, which were reported to have gotten the tappet board angels wrong..." Is there any way I can find out what aftermarket tappets those are so I don't get screwed?

Thanks.
KC

[JW113]

- The flywheel/crank work you had done by Darkhorse - was that just remanufacture, just balance, blueprint/balance, ...?

Yes, balance/blueprint. Hone rod bushings, new rod bearings, new crank pin, new sprocket shaft, new sprocket shaft Timkens & spacer. Runout was like 0.00000 & 0.0002.

- What model Daytona Sensors AFR are you using, and how is it installed?

WEGO III. Mounted to the bar with a cheapo cell phone mount from Ebay.

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- Is there any way I can find out what aftermarket tappets those are so I don't get screwed?

Have a gander at this thread, draw your own conclusions. In my case, I found the rear exhaust lobe completely trashed as if the tappet wheel has been riding on it at a slight angle, and the tappet wheel itself was damaged as well. This was with perhaps 3000 miles on it.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,109076.msg1309616.html#msg1309616

cheers,
JW