Good, Good, Good, Good Vibrations...... NOT!

[Ohio HD]

Maybe a sheared keyway on the return side?

Am 100% the scavenge is working. Seen it first hand. And that would not explain wet sumping, would it? Also, the tank level has not gone down at all, so the oil is not all ending up in the motor then getting blown out, it's making it's way back to the tank.

Bummer.

-JW

You bet if the scavenge side of the pump is screwed up you will wet sump. I had a Pan Head once that had a sheared key, and would catch and spin the gear "sometimes".

[JW113]

Hey no question that if it's not scavenging, the sump is going to fill up with oil. I'll through pulling the oil pump cover on the list, and have a look.

thanks,

-JW

[turboprop]

Well, I have the motor all back together, all the component compatibility issues resolved, and fired the thing up on Monday. Just a couple short-ish runs in the garage to get it warm, then shut down. Yesterday I took it on a couple 2 mile spins around the neighborhood. And now, one more issue to figure out.

Both times yesterday it spewed a big pile of oil out the breather. After getting back the garage, it was dripping ever so slightly, probably the surge of oil from start up. So... wet sumping? I put a piece of plexiglass over the oil tank hole and fired it up, oil flowing quite well from the return, so the scavenge seems to be working OK.

Today I did some troubleshooting. I pulled the drain plug (no metal chips on it) from the crankcase, got about 8 oz out. Seems a little high, was expecting more like 3 or 4. I looked at the tappet filter, no debris. I pulled the check valve ball, no debris on that either. Cleaned the well with some industrial Q-tips, then gave the seat a few easy tap-tap-taps with an old check ball. I fired it up, let it run for a few minutes, no oil blow but I had drained the crankcase already so no surprise there.

Will let it sit overnight and see what happens tomorrow. Maybe looking an an issue in the cam chest. Damn.

-JW

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

[david lee]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

[capn]

I would keep riding it.Drain it before riding use break in you prefer.I like the wide open throttle then close throttle method.

[JW113]

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

You mean like this?

You cannot see attachments on this board.

 

No, I did not know how much while it was rolling down the street, only when at a stand still. But know I do, and very little. The bottom of the bottle is barely covered after a 5 mile ride.

However, after I did the check ball inspection yesterday, I fired it up twice (about and hour apart), no oil spew. I let it sit overnight, fired it up this morning, again no spew. And then this afternoon, before going on a break in ride, no spew. So apparently, the blow piles of oil at start up seems to be gone. Since it doesn't do that no more, and has just a bit of carry over while riding (chalking that up to fresh build), I'm going to gamble that the scavenge gear key is not sheared, and not pull the pump apart.

What I did see yesterday when I rode it, the steady state cruise jetting was quite lean (14.4) with a 48 pilot jet. I put 50 pilot in this morning, now getting ~13.6, more or less about perfect. Would like to see closer to 13.8 but will deal with that later. And idle adjusted to 13.2. I'm on the fence when to start doing full throttle pulls to set the main and needle jets, not for some time yet. I only have 10 miles on it so far...

-JW

[JW113]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

It's the same here. You are correct, though, we are lucky. Last thing you want is to let a dealership mechanic touch an old antique like this. Same goes for Evos...

-JW

[david lee]

youse in usa are lucky no hd dealer in au will touch shovels

It's the same here. You are correct, though, we are lucky. Last thing you want is to let a dealership mechanic touch an old antique like this. Same goes for Evos...

-JW

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

[Ohio HD]

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

Shoot, I thought you were going to say you were lucky that you had HTT....     

[Hossamania]

im lucky ive got a independant hd mech who specialises in every harley

Shoot, I thought you were going to say you were lucky that you had HTT....     

 

[JW113]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

[Ohio HD]

Yeah, we have a good group here.   

A lot of variance in background and experiences. It's all helpful.

[Hossamania]

My skill is trying to stay out of the way.

[turboprop]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

Why thank you. It has taken years of professional coaching to develop this level of indifference to inconsequential minutia.

Now if only I could find someone that could really help me identify what is the best oil and lifter combination for my 2017 green Fatgut with Ness handlebars and Stupid grips (red). I also need some help deciding which foot to put down first at stop lights. I think it should be the left foot, but some of the members of my local HOG say to always put down the right foot first. A certified Harley mechanic said it was the best. Please help.

[Hossamania]

OK I'll say it. I feel lucky! This place is a great source for info, and an even greater sounding board to help brainstorm on problems. The depth of knowledge here is immense. And the best part, the attitude is kept to a minimum. Well, 'cept for turboprop.
 

Just kidding dude! Smoochies!

 

-JW

Why thank you. It has taken years of professional coaching to develop this level of indifference to inconsequential minutia.

Now if only I could find someone that could really help me identify what is the best oil and lifter combination for my 2017 green Fatgut with Ness handlebars and Stupid grips (red). I also need some help deciding which foot to put down first at stop lights. I think it should be the left foot, but some of the members of my local HOG say to always put down the right foot first. A certified Harley mechanic said it was the best. Please help.

Now that made me laugh!
I do know the answer to the foot placement issue, but I hesitate to offer the answer because it opens such a floodgate of inaccurate info gleaned from the internet.

[turboprop]

'Dripping ever so slightly', new rings not fully seated? Doesn't seem that you really know how much oil is coming out of the breather?

Have yu considered rigging up some sort of clear water bottle catch can to see how much and what is coming out of the breather?  Well placed plastic bottle, some zip ties and a longer breather hose will tell you.

You mean like this?

You cannot see attachments on this board.

 

No, I did not know how much while it was rolling down the street, only when at a stand still. But know I do, and very little. The bottom of the bottle is barely covered after a 5 mile ride.

However, after I did the check ball inspection yesterday, I fired it up twice (about and hour apart), no oil spew. I let it sit overnight, fired it up this morning, again no spew. And then this afternoon, before going on a break in ride, no spew. So apparently, the blow piles of oil at start up seems to be gone. Since it doesn't do that no more, and has just a bit of carry over while riding (chalking that up to fresh build), I'm going to gamble that the scavenge gear key is not sheared, and not pull the pump apart.

What I did see yesterday when I rode it, the steady state cruise jetting was quite lean (14.4) with a 48 pilot jet. I put 50 pilot in this morning, now getting ~13.6, more or less about perfect. Would like to see closer to 13.8 but will deal with that later. And idle adjusted to 13.2. I'm on the fence when to start doing full throttle pulls to set the main and needle jets, not for some time yet. I only have 10 miles on it so far...

-JW

I think I recall you fitting a CV to a trouble head and doing a bunch of tuning with an AFR gauge to dial it in. If this is the same bike, I bet the AFR change (Leaner) is due to the improved cylinder seal. Much love the AFR gauge.

[JW113]

Almost. That was all done to an Ironhead, the first bike I ever used an AFR on. And yes, thank you for twisting my arm hard enough to finally get one of those. Has turned out to be my favorite piece of diagnostic equipment.

 

-JW

[JW113]

So I've gotten 100 miles on this rebuild, and today did 50 miles opening it up to 70 mph for a few short bits. The whole point of this rebuild project was to get the vibration under control at reasonably high speed freeway speeds. Have to say at 70, it felt a whole lot smoother than it use to. I didn't sustain it at that for long, but wow. Very nice! Felt similar to my Evo Softail which feels like silk up to 100 or more. Can't wait to take it up to 80, but I'm going to go easy on it for another 500 miles, then see how it goes.

I dropped the oil at 50 miles, cut open the filter and had a look. Nothing of concern, some very fine micro chips and iron "mud", along with some white/yellow-ish stuff that looked like packing material flakes or something. Also saw some blue fragments of what I believe is Hylomar that oozed out and washed away from a couple of gaskets that I used it on. Wow. Cool. I think...

The Daytona ARF is indicating very rich at low throttle, and lean at mid. I was surprised at how much shimming the needle made to the low throttle and cruise setting. And yet, at higher speed, it seems to be a bit lean. Need to get the break in stuff done then dial in the jetting. It can dean with a bit lean at light throttle for now.

My little 50 mile ride today today was totally awesome. This bike is so sweet, suspension is comfy, it handles better than a Sloptail, and is just begging to take some throttle. 400 more miles, and it will get it!

-JW

[Hossamania]

Glad to hear it's working so well. Nice job

[72fl]

Glad all your hard work and determination worked out JW, you were sure tested on this one.

[JW113]

Well I've now got 400 miles on the rebuild. Been taking it out for 50 mile rides on the freeways, doing 55-65 with some bumps up to 70. And doing some carb tuning as well. Even with shimming the N72S needle, I could not get the AFR down to the high 13s-14 range. Was between 14.4 and 15.1, depending on speed and load at steady state. Just for grins, I dropped in that dreaded '88 sportster needle, the N65C. That now has it around 14.2-14.4, still kind of lean but great for economy I suppose. I'm not seeing any detrimental side effects from that, the heads are running nice and cool (210degF), and the jugs right at 300F. Oil is getting up to 250F, a bit high but it always has run on the hot side, and I have no oil cooler. I'm a little worried what it's going to get to when the weather gets up into the 80s. So I guess I'll drop a shim under the N65C and see what that does.

For the first 150 miles, it would blop out a pretty good pool of that white oil from the breather after a ride. Water from blowby mixed with oil. But it began to taper off, and after 300 miles, no more. So the rings are getting bedded in. Another 100 miles and I'll drop the oil, then start tuning it for WFO.

-JW

[JW113]

I was able to do some full throttle main jet tuning this weekend, just wrapped it up. Was quite shocked at the first WOT pull, and saw AFR was 17.1! Yikes. And that was with a 180 main jet. Since it was so drastically lean, I swapped it out for 210 and took it for another spin. Dropped it to about 14.5, still too lean for WOT. Back to the garage for a quick exchange for a 230, and now am down to about 12.5. It was quite evident that this made a huge difference in the torque the engine was now making, as it has created it's own new problem to fix: the clutch is slipping at WOT! Never had that problem before, but then I've clearly never had it jetted properly for maximum power either. Since the clutch would slip, it is not accelerating as it would with a solid clutch. So, I guess I've got more fun to come after I solve this.

The old stock clutch has been working great for me, and never gave me any reason to get rid of it. Until now. So... Rivera or APM Pro Clutch I guess it will be. I was also quite amazed to see this thing wanted a 230 main jet, that is huge. But then again, it's a Shovelhead, and rich burn hemi combustion chamber with essentially zero quench/swirl to eliminate lean pockets. So only option is to throw more fuel than is needed compared to a lean burn chamber like Evo & later.

So any opinion regarding Rivera or APM? They look identical, and designed by the same guy right?

-JW

[Ohio HD]

If the clutch is still all stock. I'd get a good set of clutch plates and new steel discs, new high quality clutch springs and an aluminum pressure plate. I bet that solves the slip and then some.

We ran the setup I mention with mild strokers and never had any issues with slippage. One of the biggest issues with the OEM clutch is the stamped steel pressure plate. The spring pressure doesn't get applied equally around the clutch disc's full area.

[crock]

If the clutch is still all stock. I'd get a good set of clutch plates and new steel discs, new high quality clutch springs and an aluminum pressure plate. I bet that solves the slip and then some.

We ran the setup I mention with mild strokers and never had any issues with slippage. One of the biggest issues with the OEM clutch is the stamped steel pressure plate. The spring pressure doesn't get applied equally around the clutch disc's full area.

Went this route with Barnette medium springs Part# 501-66-10041 and kevlar plates with the aluminum pressure plate. It looks like now the have this set up Harley Davidson Extra Plate Clutch Kit- Kevlar Part# 304-30-10005. I'm running 93" 2 up a lot of the time and NO slip.

[JW113]

Well, I do have new steels, new Alto Red Eagle friction discs, an aluminum pressure plate, and a new set of matched "blue" springs. New meaning about 2000 miles ago. I guess I could try putting some turns on the pressure plate nuts and see if that helps. But after hearing all the ranting and raving about the joys of the Rivera/APM type diaphragm clutch, I'm thinking... why not? I'm not going to be one of those guys that dies with money still in his bank account.

 

-JW