124" Build

[Wookie3011]

Question: My build is 2016 T/C Beta 124". Using Star Racing 650 Cams. With this High of lift I'm assuming I need roller Rockers and forged Rocker bases. What other considerations or parts would I need minus Springs to achieve the proper geometry for this high of a lift. Using Vulcans bases that come as a kit. Base spacers? Is their a Formula to calculate ballpark what size I would need? I work nights so I may be asleep and slow to respond.

[Don D]

It takes some amount of geometry correction to achieve full lift. At least added protrusion. Best method to get that is by custom valves not sinking them. Have one going together now and we went with the whole Baisley corrected geometry setup, TI custom intake valves and longer stem larger exhaust valves.

[Wookie3011]

So is it your opinion that 650 lift with proper geometry isn't achievable without shortening valves. Is this because of the stacked height being to tall for engine vs chassis? I was hoping for a cheaper solution say around 1k to have my heads done up. Had the HD MVA intake valves and Manley for exhaust to put in 110 heads. Would those have to be shortened or would you go another route. It is a Beta so High RPMs isn't in its destiny unfortunately:( or I looked away from TI for this reason. I have Kibblewhites racing 670 springs

[kd]

Setting up (correcting) the rockers requires knowledge of the height of the heads from the rocker base to the head gasket surface.  The benefits are worth the time to do it right.  It will balance the side thrust of the valve stems on the guides for longevity and as Don says the best method is not taking the shortcut by sinking the valves. That changes flow characteristics.  You will be insured of full lift benefits and the cams will work as designed. 

You are close enough to HD Street Performance to have him help you nail it down.  He has a relationship with Dan Baisley (his neighbour  ) to take advantage of his services also.

[Wookie3011]

Ok thanks

[Don D]

Not shortened, lengthened valves. Not life and death essential, guys run with geometry off all the time using about stock protrusion with high lift cams, not a suggestion or endorsement. I can fix them. This is not a do it yourself deal unless you have a properly equipped shop. I use  Baisleys checking kit, mill the head tops, and get longer valves. Seat to fire deck remain as stock, or just enough valves sunk to obtain proper valve to valve clearance, but the stem tips are longer. All of this can be done in a way to achieve the spring pack needed without a pile of shims at the same time. Following these changes Baisleys corrected roller rockers are used.
Here is a photo of a 2.2" valve going in Hurricanes, .290 tip length, bead lock locks, 76 grams. Stock 7mm valves 1.802" weigh more!

[Wookie3011]

Bigger lift bigger valves..I see now what your saying  more lift needs shorter valves to achieve the 90 at half lift not longer. What would you need to do this? I don't have any of my final numbers as I'm waiting on a my wheels. Been over a month but I'm being patient though they would be a super great Xmas gift.

[Wookie3011]

Setting up (correcting) the rockers requires knowledge of the height of the heads from the rocker base to the head gasket surface.  The benefits are worth the time to do it right.  It will balance the side thrust of the valve stems on the guides for longevity and as Don says the best method is not taking the shortcut by sinking the valves. That changes flow characteristics.  You will be insured of full lift benefits and the cams will work as designed. 

You are close enough to HD Street Performance to have him help you nail it down.  He has a relationship with Dan Baisley (his neighbour  ) to take advantage of his services also.

I'm in Kansas, I was looking at Jack Larson or WFO for my head work. I've heard great things from all the vendors on this site. I wish I was closer to many of them. Especially to wander in and hang out. They would love that I'm sure

[hattitude]

Setting up (correcting) the rockers requires knowledge of the height of the heads from the rocker base to the head gasket surface.  The benefits are worth the time to do it right.  It will balance the side thrust of the valve stems on the guides for longevity and as Don says the best method is not taking the shortcut by sinking the valves. That changes flow characteristics.  You will be insured of full lift benefits and the cams will work as designed. 

You are close enough to HD Street Performance to have him help you nail it down.  He has a relationship with Dan Baisley (his neighbour  ) to take advantage of his services also.

I'm in Kansas, I was looking at Jack Larson or WFO for my head work. I've heard great things from all the vendors on this site. I wish I was closer to many of them. Especially to wander in and hang out. They would love that I'm sure

 

[Wookie3011]

So I've got DH Man-O-War coming tomorrow. Have the cases at the shop and heads. I've already done the .125 hole in the rocker base. What other mods should I do while it's all apart? Besides Timken that is. Is there anything else inherently bad that most guys would do on their cases or anything while it's all torn down? It's a Beta 2016 110 SE. My build list is..
HD cases Bored
S&S Sidewinder Cylinders and Pistons. 4.125x5.004 was going to use flat tops that came with the S&S Kit. I dont need crazy Compression. What do you think?
SE 58MM TB Think I'll need Bigger?
650 THRASHER STAR RACING CAMS
V&H PRO PIPE
SE ADJUSTABLES
ZERO DECK .030 squish 10.2:1
110 Heads 2.2 IN stock EX
Daytona Pump (Stock Plate?)
Is there really any advantage to Aftermarket plates?
Vulcan Rocker bases with breathers.
Still haven't settled on who's rollers to use.

[kd]

Studs in the dowel holes for the cam plate w/ ARP flange nuts and bore the top of the pushrod tubes to 5/8" to about 1 1/2" deep. Depending on the valve springs and retainers the rocker covers may need to be clearanced too.

[Wookie3011]

Thanks Kd, I seen this in 95" build but wasn't sure if all applied to my cases and build also. Will do.

[Admiral Akbar]

Studs in the dowel holes for the cam plate w/ ARP flange nuts and bore the top of the pushrod tubes to 5/8" to about 1 1/2" deep. Depending on the valve springs and retainers the rocker covers may need to be clearanced too.

Since motor is down to the cases, if OP has a drill press, why not simply drill the hole deeper, tap deeper and thread in a longer bolt?

[turboprop]

Studs in the dowel holes for the cam plate w/ ARP flange nuts and bore the top of the pushrod tubes to 5/8" to about 1 1/2" deep. Depending on the valve springs and retainers the rocker covers may need to be clearanced too.

Since motor is down to the cases, if OP has a drill press, why not simply drill the hole deeper, tap deeper and thread in a longer bolt?

The old studs and flange bolts for the cam plate is a fix/prevention for a problem that doesn't exist. It was floated here years ago. Most likely by someone that was very active in the TC lifter debates of the day. In over fifteen years of active participation on several harley forums and having torn into countless TC cam chests, I have never seen or heard of an instance of pulled threads in a TC cam plate. But yet this keeps getting passed around. Better call Sall!

[Wookie3011]

Thank you, what's the consensus on cam plates? I've been reading up on them but honestly, I get alot of mixed opinions on if the stock is up to the task. I have DH Man-O-War Flywheels and Daytona pump to go onthe plate if this information helps with a potential Timken Conversion. Speaking of Timken again latley the consensus seems to be changing. I've read quite a few beieve HD lefty bearing is sufficient now days and in some cases recommended due to the trueness of cases vs .0025 hold of a Timken. Is there a rule of thumb? Or a data set I can check to know if cases are true enough to benefit from the Timken VS self Truing Lefty bearing?

[les]

This is a quote from the S&S cam installation instructions, so they've seen this problem too.  I have personally seen it happen even when staying within torque recommendations using a torque wrench.  The studs and nuts go a long way at minimizing the risk of stripping those two cam plate bolts, and the single bolt in an M8.

"Support plate screws that pass through alignment dowels (See positions 1 & 2 in Figure 2) can be easily stripped.
 Do not exceed torque recommendation."

[FSG]

I have never seen or heard of an instance of pulled threads in a TC cam plate.

me neither as the threads that get pulled are NOT in the cam plate

[Coyote]

At 90 inch pounds using my snapon tq wrench, I had one pull. It's definitely an issue. Fortunately for me, there were enough threads towards the hole bottom to red loctite in a stud.

[les]

My recommendation, and consistent practice, is to install the studs the very first time you go into the cam chest.  This way, I leave something solid and problem free for the next guy who works on the bike...which might be me a few years down the road.

[kd]

    To that point, my very good friend until recently was a dealer that sold and built a lot of engines.  His guys were good at bit too.  I was sitting in his office one day and he told me about the problem he had found that day in his shop with the stripped holes.  I reminded him I had given him some studs and a couple sets of rocker stud bushings to try some day.  He pulled them out of his desk drawer.    I told him to clean the holes to the bottom well, snug the studs down with red Loctite, leave them overnight and assemble it.  The next week when I saw him he was ecstatic and said his shop was never going to remove another cam plate without installing studs.  The cost of 2 studs and 2 nuts on every engine was FAR FAR less expensive than fixing one of them plus they were likely stronger.  I always have studs and nuts on hand too.

[kd]

At 90 inch pounds using my snapon tq wrench, I had one pull. It's definitely an issue. Fortunately for me, there were enough threads towards the hole bottom to red loctite in a stud.

Very easy to happen if a little oil goes unnoticed or a curl of aluminum was wedged in the bottom of the hole and the stud locks down early without enough thread engagement.

[Wookie3011]

What size Studs. 1,4  20?

[kd]

Get them where you like.  I bought mine from Allen's Fasteners.

2- Dorman studs for the dowel holes part# 675-086  1/4"-20 to 1/4"-28 x 1-1/2" long stud (red loctited in)...found @ local hardware store
2- 12 point ARP nuts 1/4"-28 for the studs  $1.48 a piece

[FSG]

My recommendation, and consistent practice, is to install the studs the very first time you go into the cam chest.  This way, I leave something solid and problem free for the next guy who works on the bike...which might be me a few years down the road.

     it's called preventative maintenance   

[Coyote]

What size Studs. 1,4  20?

Send me your address and I'll send you 2 sets

[Wookie3011]

Thank you

[Ohio HD]

These are the parts I order.


675-086 Dorman
1/4 in.-20 and 1/4 in.-28 Threads, 1.500 in. studs

300-8320 ARP
12-Point, Custom 450, Black Oxide, 1/4 in.-28 Threads

[FSG]

put a football/basketball air fill needle on the end of an air gun to blow out the residual oil from the holes where the studs are going, you don't want any hydraulic action going on that will cause damage

don't mix up the cam plate bolts with the cam chest cover bolts, a long bolt in the wrong place will dimple the lifter bore and that is guaranteed to ruin your day

[FSG]

I drew this to scale a long time ago to show the thread engagement difference between a normal hole and a dowled hole.

Stud them the first opportunity and never look back.

[les]

I get my studs at True Value Hardware.  The cost is pocket change.  They are exactly what is posted above.  The 1/4"x20, 1/4"x28, 1.5" long double threaded studs.  The most expensive part is the ARP nuts, which I get from Summit Racing, but still not any amount of money to write home about.

I've got at least 20 sets of these lying around at any time.

One note about leaving the red loctited studs to cure overnight.  Note that after I've snugged my studs in with red loctite, I just continue to march forward and install the cam plate and nuts (with blue loctite) and torque the whole thing down and let the whole thing cure up as an assembly.  In other words, you don't even have to wait for the red loctite to cure before completing the installation because the studs are bottomed out in the bolt holes.

Additionally, there has been discussion in the past about putting studs in all six twin cam cam plate holes.  I don't do this.  Only the two dowel holes.  The other four bolt holes have a complete compliment of thread, therefore the OEM bolts work perfectly fine.

Final note.  For M8 engines, there is one alignment dowel bolt hole for the cam plate.  Don't forget to give this one bolt hole the stud treatment too.

[Wookie3011]

Excellent Information. I greatly appreciate it.