Requesting experienced eyes on opinions- heads/cylinders

[hattitude]

It's a 2003 Heritage that I bought new in 5/2003.  It has 24K miles, and the selling dealer installed an HD 95" Big Bore kit at about 6 months old.

Ran excellent for years....

About 21K miles, I upgraded the cam chest to the '07+ cam plate, new inner cam bearings, hydraulic tensioners, new lifters, and A26 conversion cams.

It runs really well, but it still has a loud ticking noise, when warmed up, at about 2500 rpms. I have been chasing it for 2 years now, and have done all the recommended "fixes". It's still there...

Being retired, wrenching on my bikes is both fun and my hobbie....

I decided to do a valve job on the Heritage for two reasons:

1) I had never done one before and wanted to pull the heads.

2) I was hoping to see/find something that may be the cause of the ticking noise.

I have torn down the engine, and will shortly contact HD Street Performance about shipping my heads to them for their basic "Blueprint" head porting.

I had planned to leave the jugs on the cases, do the headwork, then reassemble the engine.

As I inspected the engine with the heads off, I saw a couple things that may be normal, or may not... I just don't have the experience to judge..

So if you would, please take a look at these pics of the heads, and the cylinders. Let me know if you see anything that is a red flag, or that would cause you to remove the cylinders and/or pistons for some additional work while it's apart...

Thanks for your assistance...

[kd]

Is it using oil or smoking.  (oily in the pipe?)  Is there hard carbon buildup on the back of the valves and stems? The clean spots on the pistons and above the rings on the cylinders are usually from oil wash.   Can you feel the scratch in the cylinder wall below the spot on the rear cylinder rim?    IMO A little more detective work is in order.  In the pics the pistons may be rocking excessively as there seems to be contact in the carbon ring at the top rim of the of the cylinder.  The fact that these spots are in line with the valves and therefore crank rotation the crank are suspicious to me.

As for the tick, check the shaft side of the long rocker stand mounting bolts for signs of contact.  If the rocker shaft is "rocking in the bore" the flat on the end of the shaft will contact the mounting bolts and make a ticking sound at about 2500 rpm.  The mounting bolts will typically have marks at the height of the shaft that may look somewhat shiny.  If you see any marks post pics here and I bet someone will immediately respond.  If they are present, HTT Vendor Rockout Rocker Products has the fix for a really reasonable cost.

[hattitude]

Is it using oil or smoking.  (oily in the pipe?)  Is there hard carbon buildup on the back of the valves and stems? The clean spots on the pistons and above the rings on the cylinders are usually from oil wash.   Can you feel the scratch in the cylinder wall below the spot on the rear cylinder rim?    IMO A little more detective work is in order.  In the pics the pistons may be rocking excessively as there seems to be contact in the carbon ring at the top rim of the of the cylinder.  The fact that these spots are in line with the valves and therefore crank rotation the crank are suspicious to me.

As for the tick, check the shaft side of the long rocker stand mounting bolts for signs of contact.  If the rocker shaft is "rocking in the bore" the flat on the end of the shaft will contact the mounting bolts and make a ticking sound at about 2500 rpm.  The mounting bolts will typically have marks at the height of the shaft that may look somewhat shiny.  If you see any marks post pics here and I bet someone will immediately respond.  If they are present, HTT Vendor Rockout Rocker Products has the fix for a really reasonable cost.

Thanks for your reply... further info, and my detective work to date...

The bike doesn't burn or use oil. The exhaust has no oil in the pipe..

There appears to be some build up on the backs of the valves, but the stems look OK... for the first 17-18K miles, I used the OEM breathers into the intake. AT about 18K I vented the breathers externally. I saw the carbon build-up on the pistons with a borescope, so at 19K I put a can of Seafoam through the engine (sprayed into the intake while maintaining 1600 rpms). The intake side of the heads are almost completely clean now. I thought maybe the clean spots on the pistons might have been from the injected seafoam...

On pic #2 of the front cylinder, and pic #2 of the rear, I can barely feel those lines on the cylinder walls with my fingernail.. at least I believe I can, it certainly isn't obvious.. very subtle..

As far as the tick... I've posted on here before about that. Since working on my bike is a hobby, I used the tick noise to spend time & money changing things, trying to alleviate the noise, but mostly to do things on the bike I've not done. Hey, I enjoy working on the bike. I also followed several suggestions from this forum and other sources. I have gone into the cam chest probably 3x and the rockers probably 4x...

Some of the things I've tried, none of which stopped the tick:
OEM Rocker arms were measured and well within spec, but then "for the fun of it" I went with new Forged S&S rocker arms & shafts in new SE Forged rocker arm bases.
Rockouts in & Rockouts removed. (yes, I tried the Rockouts in the both the OEM & forged applications. I used the proper Rockouts for the forged application)
3 different sets of lifters, currently with WFO Larry's 2313SE lifters.
I used OEM pushrods because I was told they would work with the A26 cams. I then used both S&S Quickie and HD SE taperd adjustables, with various preloads from 0.100" to 0.143". I'm currently using HD SE tapered adj pushrods @ 0.130ish"
I upgraded from OEM to the '07+ cam plate with hydraulic tensioners, and then "for the fun of it" switched to an S&S TC3 cam plate & oil pump.
I have clearanced the pushrod tubes.
I have clearanced the rocker housings around the valves (bottoms).
I measured with clay, found no contacts, but still clearanced the rocker covers (tops).

Through all these changes, including a dyno tune on the A26 cams, the bike has run excellent... just has that annoying tick, that I don't remember being there before the cam plate upgrade...

I was under the impression, that if my ticking was piston or crank related, it would start out noisy and get quieter as the engine warmed up... My tick is just the opposite, quiet at first, then more pronounced as the engine warms up.. and only around that 2500rpms (I'm guessing rpms because I have no tach on the Heritage)

So as you can see, the only thing I haven't touched in the valve train is the heads/valves themselves... So I decided to have a minor valve job done... I have no specific reason to believe the valve job will stop the tick, but it's an excuse to wrench on the bike and get a valve job...

It's been a long & not inexpensive journey, but I've enjoyed the "hands-on" with my bike. I'm really good at removing the fuel tank, and getting into the rockers or the cam chest. Most of the "extra" parts were used on another twin cam I own, to update that cam chest.. That one went without a hitch.. no ticking..

So that's how I got here....

Since I went this far, just not sure if there are any cylinder and/or piston things I should do "while I'm in here".... and I'm not experienced enough to see any red flags in these pics...

[Wookie3011]

Have you went over your Exhaust, Intake, license plate? I had a tick that I thought was top end. It ended up being the primary chain adjuster. In the process I found many loose Exhaust shield hold on. License plate I shimed with rubber and floor board on the left  side would vibrate. Just looking over your post seems you have looked at everything inside the box. Just my thoughts whatever they may be worth. There are many far more experienced on here that work on these American treasures every day. I'm like you and just like learning and working on my own stuff. AKA not a pro Good luck

[gregfxs]

While it's open check the piston oilers, found the rear one on my 02 FLSTC was bad. Cuts oil pressure to the topend and could cause sumping. Just learned about this not long ago Kevin Baxter has a good video on this.

[kd]

Well your additional information is certainly helpful.  I was nit picking in the hope some minor impression I got from the pics may lead down the right path.  It seems as though you have walked through all that already. 

Here's what I get from the new information.  To you, it appears to be temperature related.  Wookie's advice could be relevant with respect to those things he mentioned that get hot after running for a while.  Exhaust and primary can transmit to different points and fool you.  Have you used a stethoscope device to test different areas? 

I know you said you clearance the rocker boxes and covers but I will relate to you a similar problem I had on an evo.  I had the very thing happen to me and could not find the problem.  It seemed to be tapping 1/2 time like a valve.  Short explanation is that after checking the rocker boxes and valve train several times I noticed a black smudge under the cover where the rocker was just barely making contact.  There was no real witness mark in the chrome.  It turned out the rocker cover was changing shape when hot just enough to touch.  It was horrendous when hot.  A very minor buzz with the Dremel tool resolved it.  Again, there was no mark present and only removed the thickness of the chrome.  This all began after installing a new in the box set of SE heads and a SE3 cam.  Rocker covers are like a drum.  Is it possible your valve protrusion is off?  Maybe.  When it stopped after the minor buffing, I stopped worrying.  . 

The carbon I see in the pics is shiny and concentrated around the intake valves.  The clean spots in the carbon are also near the intakes.  Is the carbon build up you describe worse on the back of the intake valves?  Do you know what your quench (squish)is set at? The carbon buildup in the quench zone looks like it may be making contact on the intake side only. Maybe the valve seats or guides need attention.  If you are sending your heads to Don he will likely look them over close check all of those specs before disassembly and correct anything he finds. You may get lucky

Your barrels are sitting there just waiting for you to slip them off and inspect them.  This is your best opportunity.  A wrist pin or skirt could be the culprit.  Look at it this way.  You can check your rods,  oilers, pistons and pins.  Measure the skirts and barrels, and look for wear.  If it was me, being in this deep I could not stand not looking further while it's all opened up.  I look at it as an opportunity to re ring it and freshen up the whole top end and maybe solve that damn tick.  You may need pistons or coating could be sufficient. 

I see you are not far from Don so shipping should be reasonable and he is equipped to do a great job.  Have a conversation with him and explain your issues if he doesn't just drop in on this thread.  He may ask you to send heads, barrels and pistons.  You'll get back something you can rely on being correct and long-lived.  If it ticks after that, it likely ain't in the top end period.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Too late at this point but I have personally seen Spectro 25-60 DINO oil make a BIG reduction in ticking/tapping noise. If you reach a dead end, try it.


 Really.

[Don D]

Time to take some measurements of the pistons and cylinders. Those are forged pistons. You may be surprised there is no valvetrain noise and what you hear is piston slap. It is using oil for sure. All easy fixes.

[hattitude]

Thanks for the replies....

Wookie311- I have checked and rechecked numerous fasteners.. haven't found any loose yet, but that is always on my mind..... and I'm always looking for and checking for loose fasteners.. recently I was checking the comp, clutch and primary chain. I found the primary chain a little loose. I thought, "Could it be this simple?" In my case the answer was, "Nope."

gregfxs- When the jugs come off, I will certainly check them out, for no other reason than I am curious

kd- I clearanced the rocker box covers, even when the modeling clay showed no contact, because I remembered the account you shared about the tick from your covers.

Rockout Rocker Products- I was running synthetic 20W50 oils for most of the bike's life. The last two years I've been running Liqui-Moly Synthetic Race Tech GT1 10W60. About 6 months ago I did an oil change and tried to Lucas Oil 50 wt at the advice of a friend... still ticking.

HD Street Performance- You and dk have convinced me... I'll be pulling the jugs and checking out the pistons and cylinders... You'll be getting a call from me within a couple weeks to talk about what you feel should be done... thx for chiming in..

Again, thanks to all for the input.. the search continues, but I feel that now I have to be close... And at the very least, I'll be getting a valve job... !!! 

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Thanks for the replies....

Rockout Rocker Products- I was running synthetic 20W50 oils for most of the bike's life. The last two years I've been running Liqui-Moly Synthetic Race Tech GT1 10W60. About 6 months ago I did an oil change and tried to Lucas Oil 50 wt at the advice of a friend... still ticking.

 Now try the Spectro 25-60 dino. 

[Admiral Akbar]

24K? Looks excellent to me..

[hattitude]

Well, I'm glad I pulled the jugs....

I have been convinced the ticking was coming from the front cylinder....

Once pulled apart, I could see vertical scratches on both the front and rear portions of the cylinders, where the piston skirts ride... I could feel those scratches with my finger nail,,,

Is that a sign of piston slap...??

The rear cylinder had some vertical wear marks in the same spots, but much less and I could NOT feel any of those with my finger nail...

I'll definitely be calling HP Performance to discuss options... hopefully this week...

Since the dealer added the big bore kit back in 2003, I still have the OEM cylinders/pistons in a box in my attic. I don't want to go back to 88", but it might be cheaper to bore out the OEM 88" cylinders than rework the 95" big bore cylinders... One of the things I will ask HP Performance...

I attached a couple pics for your entertainment and/or comment...

I attached pics of the both skirts on the front piston, and the two areas with wear/scratch marks on the front cylinder...

Thanks again for all the replies...

[FSG]

interesting how the top oil rail lined up with the expander spacer

[kd]

interesting how the top oil rail lined up with the expander spacer

I was looking at that and the position of the 2nd ring.  No way of knowing if the rings were handled before the pics but can it also be coinky dinky that the clean spot on the piston surface is also aligned there.   That type of clean spot is very often associated with introduced oil.  We see deep scratches aligned with the top rail of the oil ring, the second compression ring and the clean spot on the piston.  A piston going down on intake will cause a crankcase pulse in sinc with the intake draw and that could pull the oily vapor to the scene of all of those places.  There is no staining between the oil and compression ring land.  It's anyone's guess at this point.

I also notice that the first set of pics have the one I referred to that shows wear on the carbon ring on the exhaust side (front) of the cylinder.  That is across from the skirt showing the wear and IMO it would support the finding of a rocking piston which in turn causes what is called piston slap.  That may be further supported by your belief the sound was emanating from within the front cylinder.

How did it happen?  After reviewing the chain of events you described, I found the dousing with Seafoam very important for at least 3 reasons.  First, it appears to have been done just prior the tick appearing.  Second, there is no indication of engine temp when the engine was "soaked" but by description, it was soaked while running.   Third, the 1600  rpm is not much above idle and air flow through the intake, cylinders, and heads would be slow and turbulent.  I personally have never agreed with this method as I see the opportunity for carbon released in granules to become grinding grit between the piston and cylinder.  That's just me though. Others may not agree.  With the present information though, I'm thinking that may be where this began to develop.  Right or wrong, the silver lining may be that you took some action and hopefully it will be resolved. 

[Don D]

The rings were not seating and look at the faces of rings 1 and 2. KD, you are good at forensics?

[hattitude]

For clarification....

The pistons were handled before the pic but just to hold them away from the cylinder studs, while I put rubber hose over the studs... not sure if I would have moved the rings or not.. but it's possible..

I checked my records, as I'm a pretty anal record keeper on all my vehicles. I used the Seafoam about a month after I did the cam plate upgrade and first noticed the "ticking" noise. I had actually already changed pushrods and lifters the first time, before using the Seafoam. I thought the ticking could be carbon build up from years of having the breathers dump into the intake. I took about a 20 min ride before quickly popping the air cleaner and using the Seafoam. The engine was certainly at operating temp. I am guessing  at the rpms, but they were high enough that the engine didn't bog down from the Seafoam being sprayed into the intake. I had read about Seafoam, and this was the first and only time I've used it. Right after the Seafoam, I changed to an external breather system. I guess the tick has really bothered me, because I've only put 3k miles on the bike since I first heard the tick 3 years ago... My other two bikes were getting all the mileage..

I appreciate all the comments.. I've learned a lot from this forum...

[rigidthumper]

I expect to see even wear and no shiny spots on rings. Second ring should show wear from the bottom up, upper ring from the top down, as they have opposing tapers. Any chance the second ring is upside down?

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Don D]

Robin, money!
#2 ring is likely upside down. I was thinking the dark spots were the wear. Notice how the stripe gets thick and thin? I am not talking about at the ends, they all do that there. Indicates the cylinders are out of round and the rings are probably stuck in one spot trying to fill the voids.

[Admiral Akbar]

Robin has a sharp eye.  I wouldn't have expected that to happen without oil consumption tho. OP says the motor didn't burn oil.

The marks aren't a result from piston slap.  More than likely something in the oil.  It's possible that cylinders weren't cleaned properly I guess...  If the bike ever had a tensioner die and all the stuff wasn't cleaned out?  Maybe a rod bearing is starting to go.  Cut a part the oil filter.

[hattitude]

Robin has a sharp eye.  I wouldn't have expected that to happen without oil consumption tho. OP says the motor didn't burn oil.

The marks aren't a result from piston slap.  More than likely something in the oil.  It's possible that cylinders weren't cleaned properly I guess...  If the bike ever had a tensioner die and all the stuff wasn't cleaned out?  Maybe a rod bearing is starting to go.  Cut a part the oil filter.

I have not had to add oil between changes... and no real noticeable oil collecting in the exhaust... But with three bikes, this one had not been ridden much since 2012ish... The oil changes, done at about 18 months to two year intervals really don'y have much mileage on them...

I never lost a tensioner, but when I changed them, they were just slightly pitted...




At that time, I also found some marks in the oil pump. I posted the photo on here, back then (2018), and the consensus was that if I couldn't feel them with my fingernail, they were insignificant. I was unable to feel them when I checked, so I dismissed them as normal wear....

[kd]

Robin has a sharp eye.  I wouldn't have expected that to happen without oil consumption tho. OP says the motor didn't burn oil.

The marks aren't a result from piston slap.  More than likely something in the oil.  It's possible that cylinders weren't cleaned properly I guess...  If the bike ever had a tensioner die and all the stuff wasn't cleaned out?  Maybe a rod bearing is starting to go.  Cut a part the oil filter.

My WAG was the can of sea foam through the intake to remove the carbon build-up. It must have been wet and filthy in there.


Do you think it could be carbon from the

[wfolarry]

Here's my WAG
The rings look normal. I think it's the lighting that makes it look like something it isn't.
If you use Seafoam you have to change the oil afterwards. That stuff will have a lot of garbage floating around in your oil. Best to use it when you're ready to change the oil.
Ticking noises can come from a lot of places that you wouldn't expect & sometimes it's staring you in the face but you can't see it. In my buddy's shop when he gets a ticker he changes everything: plate, pump, lifters etc. The bikes usually end up by him after they've been everywhere else so it's his best bet. He had one he was blaming on the lifters because the parts I mentioned had supposedly been replaced a few months prior. After a few back & forth discussions he went ahead & replaced everything. The noise disappeared. This is just an example of how frustrating it can get chasing a ticking noise in a HD. It's hard to nail it down sometimes. On my own bike [Evo] switching to S&S rocker boxes did it for me. Good luck.

[Hossamania]

I pulled up next to my bud after a stint of riding, he looks over and says "You got oil in that thing?"
Yup, just a little clicking and clacking.
"A little?"

[hattitude]

Ticking noises can come from a lot of places that you wouldn't expect & sometimes it's staring you in the face but you can't see it. In my buddy's shop when he gets a ticker he changes everything: plate, pump, lifters etc. The bikes usually end up by him after they've been everywhere else so it's his best bet. He had one he was blaming on the lifters because the parts I mentioned had supposedly been replaced a few months prior. After a few back & forth discussions he went ahead & replaced everything. The noise disappeared. This is just an example of how frustrating it can get chasing a ticking noise in a HD. It's hard to nail it down sometimes. On my own bike [Evo] switching to S&S rocker boxes did it for me. Good luck.

That's basically what I have done over the last 3 years...
I changed the cam plate/oil pump
I changed the lifters 2x
I changed pushrods 3X
I changed the rocker arms, rocker arm shafts, and rocker arm bases
I've clearanced both the rocker covers and rocker housings
I've clearanced the pushrod tubes

This time the heads came off to check the valves, I'm going to get a valve job "while they're off".

Because of the scratches in the front cylinder and the "questionable" piston rings I'll have some cylinder/piston work done.. Luckily I have the OEM 88" cylinders with only 3K miles on them. Think I'll have them bored to 95" to match the pistons, obviously with new rings "while they're off"

The only thing left would be sending the bottom end to dark horse...      I checked the runout when I first updated the cam tensioners with the Feuling tool. I was thinking about gear drive cams. The runout was 0.0024", so I'm not ready to send off the bottom end..

My wife said that by the time I'm done messing with this bike, I'll either stop the ticking, or be too old to hear it...!! 

[Admiral Akbar]

And the problem started with the cam plate.  Get another one. That's what Larry is sayin'.

[hattitude]

And the problem started with the cam plate.  Get another one. That's what Larry is sayin'.

I did.... Maybe I didn't explain it right....

The bike obviously was delivered with an OEM 88" cam plate. When I did the tensioner upgrade, I switched to an '07+ cam plate with conversion cams...

While chasing the "tick", I then changed the new '07+ cam plate to an S&S TC3 cam plate & oil pump..

And just like a Timex, it was still ticking...

[Don D]

The noise..
Perhaps you have a bad piston oiler that is hung open. It would have an affect on the lifter oil supply, at least at low speeds.

[wfolarry]

When you send the heads out he'll be able to tell if you had something like a sticking valve when he tears them apart. Since you'll have the top end off you'll need to do a little closer inspection on everything. Look for wear & measure fore size/clearance.

I'll tell you another ticking story [I have a lot  ]
On another bike that we were chasing a noise on we warmed up the motor to get it to start ticking then started inspecting. With the plugs out & turning the motor over by hand the rear exhaust valve would hesitate [stick] then snap shut. A valve job cured it.
New story tomorrow. 

[hattitude]

The noise..
Perhaps you have a bad piston oiler that is hung open. It would have an affect on the lifter oil supply, at least at low speeds.

I'll be calling you soon to discuss options...

Right now dealing with some family issues that popped up... but they are resolving well, and I'll be back working on that bike shortly...

[tbird]

inner chain, did you install a new inner chain? I chased similar ticking for yrs. inner chain fixed mine

[Don D]

Sounds good, I see a lot of stuck valves as Larry describes.

[hattitude]

inner chain, did you install a new inner chain? I chased similar ticking for yrs. inner chain fixed mine

When I did the original tensioner upgrade, I went to an '07+ cam plate, conversion cams, and went with the new inner and outer roller chains... I admit, when I switched to the newer S&S TC3 cam plate and oil pump, I reused the new roller chains that I bought for the conversion...

Was the inner chain binding... Could you tell by inspecting it that something was wrong with it...??  Since the bike is torn down, I could go back into the cam chest for the 4th time, or would it be the 5th......  I loose track...

I look at this whole "issue" as a big learning project. I wouldn't be so calm about it if I didn't have my other bikes to ride...

[hattitude]

I had a long talk with Don (HD Street Performance) this morning. He was very generous with his time and his knowledge.

Much was discussed..... I took up way too much of his time.. but I learned a bunch...

Don guided me through an inspection of the front piston. wfolarry was correct. It was just the lighting in the picture that made the rings look upside down.  At least the rings weren't installed wrong... 

Don asked many questions about the timeline and progression of events in my quest to stop the ticking. He also asked specific questions about the ticking noise. 

After our discussion, he believes (as did wfolarry) that a valve job will probably clear up the ticking noise... Don also explained how using seafoam could have loosened carbon particles that caused the few scratches I can feel amongst the "normal wear marks" on the cylinder walls...

I was given homework, well, more like a few things to check while I'm this deep into the engine. 

Bottom line, I'm going to send off my heads, and cylinders to Don. Unless some of the checks I was given to perform, or Don's inspection of parts shows something outside what was discussed, it looks like I'll be good with a valve job, cylinder bore & hone, and new pistons/rings.

I have a feeling this will put my engine in "good as new" condition and I won't have to take it apart again in the near future...

I'll report back when all is done, the engine is reassembled, I've had a chance to break it in, and test run it...

I appreciate all the comments and assistance...

[Coff 06]

Don has helped me through 2 builds.Very knowledgeable is an understatement.Seems to always make you feel like your his only customer at the time,never hurried,polite and explains things in a way you can understand.Good people.        Coff 06