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'77 Shovelhead Enging Assembly

Started by JW113, January 25, 2022, 09:20:24 AM

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JW113

I finally got the Jims cam bushing hone I needed to line hone my nose cone bushing, cam now spins freely with the cone on, and I've got the end play set to .0015.

I had previously measured the pinion bearing shaft, and S&S provided the pinion race diameter in the case. 1.7511 in the case, and 1.2502 on the shaft. That gives .5009 roller clearance, so I got some .2502 rollers for a .0005 running clearance. All set to go, or so I thought...

I used the Jim's sprocket shaft bearing checker tool to make sure the Timken spacer that S&S provided was correct. I measured a .0015 end play, right at the tight end of spec, good to go. I pressed the inner Timken on the sprocket shaft, and dropped the wheels into the case. Then slid the pinion bearings on, and slipped the right side case over the wheels. Was a little tight getting the bearings into the race, but it did go with a little wiggling. I tapped the alignment dowel bolts in, and snugged them up. Then checked to see how the wheels felt.

Tight! As in, won't turn in the case. I loosened the nuts on the bolts, and it would now sort of turn, but was looser at the top of the stroke and very tight at the bottom. Damn. I looked carefully at the inside of the right case, I don't see any evidence of the wheels making contact anywhere.

I'm only guessing, but I think the pinion bearings are too tight. The next size smaller would be the Standard .25000, which puts the running clearance at .0009, just out of spec. Looking at the S&S tech sheet, if I wanted to try the later style 1 piece caged bearings, the "white" one should be in the middle of the range. I happened to have one, so I tried it. No go. Still tight. So the next step is to get the next lower size Green one, which S&S is "OK" if you want to run a little more clearance. NOBODY has one around here, had to order on line, so here goes another week of down time.

The one piece caged bearings are for '87 and later, I'm assuming there is no issue to use one in the older motors. Is there?

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Pinion rollers on the tight side binding up the flywheels? I've never ran into this before. One possibility is the .2502 rollers that I got are out of spec, guess I'll measure all 28 of them since I got time to kill now.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Ohio HD

One thing I found easier and just works well for me is when using the loose bearings, I'd do a plug fit. I'd go up in bearing size till the pinion shaft was snug in the bearings, or would just not go in. Then I'd go down 0.0005" in bearing size for the final fit.

JW113

Thanks Ohio. I actually did that, but evidently not correctly. I have a set of +4t rollers and tried them first, and indeed, would not go in. Then I tried the +2t set, and they do go in. But as you said, they are on the tight side. So looks like the STD set will be the ringer.

thanks,
JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

About that cam bushing hone. Did you by chance mark the bushing with machinist dye prior to using the hone (or was it a reamer?). It is possible that the new hole is sort of offset in the the old hole and the cam is not,,well you get what I am saying. I am sure you have it right.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

JW113

My bad, it is a bushing reamer. Jims USA 1023-70. I did not use any dye, but didn't really need it to see what the reamer cut. It appeared to take off just a smidge on the bottom side of the bushing bore.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on January 26, 2022, 08:18:33 AMMy bad, it is a bushing reamer. Jims USA 1023-70. I did not use any dye, but didn't really need it to see what the reamer cut. It appeared to take off just a smidge on the bottom side of the bushing bore.

-JW

That is what I was after. Assuming the cam fit into the bushing prior to being reamed and the hole was the correct size but offset 'just a smudge', it is possible that the new hole is not round. Ideally that reamer would have touched the entire 360 of the interior of that bushing.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

JW113

The nosecone worked on the stock HD block it was on before. This is a new S&S engine case, so very likely the nosecone bushing was not aligned to the cam bearing in the case. It would go together "ok", but the cam would bind only when I started to tighten the nosecone screws. I put a long #10 screw in the cam and gave it a wiggle, no perceivable play in the bushing that I could feel. Think it will fine.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

billbuilds

     I don't know that this will help with your crank binding issue however your cam end play sounds a bit tight. My understanding is that it s/b at least .005 to allow for heat expansion.

JW113

The service manual lists cam gear end play as .001 to .005. I believe as the motor heats up, the aluminum nose cone is going to grow, increasing the clearance, not tightening it. The camshaft will grow also, but being steel, not nearly as much.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

JW113

Well this is sure fun. I received my "green" sized pinion bearing, and was eager to see if this would solve the issue of flywheel bind. I dropped the new bearing on, slid the right side case over the crank, OK so far so good. I put a couple alignment bolts through the case, and slow tighten the nuts while spinning the flywheels, and... gets tight, very tight. Something else is going on here. I loosen the case nuts, and spin the wheels, OK, but if I push on the right side case by hand, and spin the wheels, I can hear something. Something kinda like 'grinding'??

So now the investigation turns to a flywheel to case interference. I looked closely but could not see any obvious witness marks. OK, out comes the Dyekem, and now the inside of the right case is painted a nice pretty blue. Back together, spin the wheels, and yes, same grinding noise. If I push a little harder, it almost locks up the wheels. Pull the right case, look inside, nothing. No scrapes to the Dyekem. What the...??

But then, wait. Looking all over, I happen to look at the crank pin nut.

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One of points of the crank pin nut was facing the pinion bushing bore, and the case boss around the pinion bushing just ever so slightly raised. So the crank pin nut is contacting that case boss. I pulled out the angle grinder, wrapped up the flywheels in plastic, and nipped that point down a bit. Back together, and guess what? Yes, you are right. No more flywheel binding.

So now I have to question if I really needed to go down one size on the pinion bearing. The measurements and the math implied that the "white" bearing, or +.0002 rollers, would be correct. Guess I need to revisit that and check to so see if it spins free with those.

Another adventure in engine building!
 :doh:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

JW113

February 02, 2022, 10:53:03 AM #10 Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 11:00:24 AM by JW113 Reason: Rotate Image
After a weekend in the garage, finally making some forward progress. Now that I got the problems with the right side case interference solved, I put it back together *without* case sealer and did another check. Flywheels seem to spin free, great. I pressed the outer Timken in, gave a spin, and.... rub, rub, rub. Now what?

Always a real party pressing the wheels out of the case with a shop press, I really need to get one of those tools that bolt on at the primary bolt holes and press it out. Oh well, next time. I took a look inside the left case, and of course didn't see anything unusual. So I douse it down with Dyekem, and reassemble. Instead of using the new Timken to preload the bearings and pull the wheels over to the left, I took an old Timken and a dremel tool with grinding stone and whittled the inside of the bearing out until I could get a nice slip fit over the sprocket shaft. I cleaned the bearing and bolted the sprocket shaft in with a old comp nut and the spacers from my Timken bearing press tool.

Again, I could hear/feel something in there rubbing on the flywheels. I pull it apart and examine, and sure enough, up at the top of the case where the timing plug is, the Dyekem is worn off. I can see that area did not get cut back the same as the rest of the inside of the case. So with the dremel and cut off wheel, I cut the area back. Reassembly, and yay, no more rubbing.

I did go back and try the .0002" oversize loose pinion rollers, and now they seem to fit in perfectly, and the wheels spin free as a bird with them. So am going to go ahead and use them. Just for a reality check, I loaded up the roller frames with .0004" rollers, to "plug check" the fit. The case would barely go over the rollers now, but it would go, just very snug. And it took a bit of rolling and rocking to get the case back off the pinion shaft. So the .0002" rollers must be the ticket.

Have to say this has been one of the more challenging bottom end rebuilds that I have done. The Ultima cases I used for my Evo went together without a hitch. I think a couple things were working against me on this Shovelhead. One, the flywheels are the "wide" left side, so wheel to case clearance is pretty tight. Any little flaw in the machining of the case could cause issues. Also, the nuts used on the flywheel assembly were no the stock one, they seem slightly bigger and have no flange. That, coupled with one of the "points" of the hex pointed exactly at the pinion shaft lead to interference on the left side.

Oh well, all good lessons in engine building to store away and be prepared for next time!

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-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

72fl

Wow JW that was a Major PIA. Glad you got it fit up.

crock

Except that, if your over 30 or the next time isn't next week, you're libel to forget half of it till it happens again and you gotta figure it out all over.
Crock

JW113

Well then there's that. LOL! Luckily I still have a pretty good memory, so let's hope not!

And the hits keep on a rollin'...

Am stuck yet again waiting for the big brown truck. I went to put the alternator stator on (Shovelhead, can't do this after the primary housing is on), and.... what the....? It would not fit in the cavity on the left side case. I re-read the S&S instructions yet again and lo and behold, a short paragraph that says the maximum diameter for rotor is 6.470. Mine is 6.525, obviously an after market rotor with fully enclosed magnets. Damn it. I checked with my typical go to mail order parts suppliers, nobody has a rotor in stock. Covid supply chain issues? Good old ebay, and Jason MotoElectix, had one. So here we go again, pull out the thumbs and start twiddling.

One thing that is I'm finding totally bewildering, I live in the 10th largest city in the USA, and one of the largest metro areas in the country, and yet, there are no more HD parts stores around here. None. And of course, the HD dealers to not hold stock on ANYTHING anymore either, especially if it is for a bike more than 2 years old. Is this the Amazon.com effect or something? I used to go to the local indys to get parts, and if they did not have it in stock, then start surfing the net. But they're all gone now. Never saw this coming.

Good thing it's "winter", although the weather's been in the mid-60s, perfect break in riding weather. Damn.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Hossamania

This is why I buy local whenever I can, to try and keep my independent shops around. Even then, a shop can only carry so much inventory. Luckily mine seems to do pretty well, and can normally get product in a few days if needed.
But yes, this is the current way of doing business, very lean inventory, order as needed. Current events have exposed the problems with this practice.
Plus, you're working on a Shovel, 4 generations removed from current, just be happy most parts are still available!
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

JW113

Yes, patience is the name of the game these days. Only about 5 years ago perhaps, both Bob Dron up in Oakland and Dudley Perkins in SF carried a lot of stock in the parts inventory, even for the old stuff. I never really had any problems finding OEM parts locally. Nowadays, nobody has anything, and the aftermarket shops are all gone. But you are correct, at least you can mostly still find stuff for the old iron, and much of it better than OEM.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on February 04, 2022, 08:48:37 AMWell then there's that. LOL! Luckily I still have a pretty good memory, so let's hope not!

And the hits keep on a rollin'...

Am stuck yet again waiting for the big brown truck. I went to put the alternator stator on (Shovelhead, can't do this after the primary housing is on), and.... what the....? It would not fit in the cavity on the left side case. I re-read the S&S instructions yet again and lo and behold, a short paragraph that says the maximum diameter for rotor is 6.470. Mine is 6.525, obviously an after market rotor with fully enclosed magnets. Damn it. I checked with my typical go to mail order parts suppliers, nobody has a rotor in stock. Covid supply chain issues? Good old ebay, and Jason MotoElectix, had one. So here we go again, pull out the thumbs and start twiddling.

One thing that is I'm finding totally bewildering, I live in the 10th largest city in the USA, and one of the largest metro areas in the country, and yet, there are no more HD parts stores around here. None. And of course, the HD dealers to not hold stock on ANYTHING anymore either, especially if it is for a bike more than 2 years old. Is this the Amazon.com effect or something? I used to go to the local indys to get parts, and if they did not have it in stock, then start surfing the net. But they're all gone now. Never saw this coming.

Good thing it's "winter", although the weather's been in the mid-60s, perfect break in riding weather. Damn.

-JW

The good idea fairy lives in my office. It is probably too late for this, but you could put that S&S left side case on a rotary table and enlarge the hole for you existing rotor. Might prove beneficial in the future and allow for more options for charging systems. Or not.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

JW113

Yes, at this point I have a new rotor in the mail, and the bottom end is completely together, including cylinders. Not real eager to take it apart, if you know what I mean.
 :wink:

But yes, that would be one way to deal with it. Another would be to turn the outside of the rotor I have down a few ten's of thou's. But the hitch there is, I don't have a lathe!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber