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Fuel Pak 3

Started by tomz240, February 20, 2022, 06:09:14 PM

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tomz240

I purchased a 2016 SGS. The previous owner had installed the FP3. I am putting Andrews 48H cams in. I read the instructions for the FP3 and have a pretty good idea of the functionality. But I'm not very tech savvy and have no idea what parameters to enter. My question is, should I just do the auto tune feature?

FXDBI

If you want it to run right with a cam change dump the FP3 and buy a real tuner. FP3 is at its limit with a air cleaner and pipe.  Bob

tomz240

Quote from: FXDBI on February 20, 2022, 07:52:56 PMIf you want it to run right with a cam change dump the FP3 and buy a real tuner. FP3 is at its limit with a air cleaner and pipe.  Bob

What tuner do you recommend?

Ohio HD

The FP3 has cam selections so you can select Andrews 48 and then try to auto tune. It all depends on how much you wish to get from the cam change as to trying to tune the motor yourself or have it professionally tuned.

Most professional tuning shops will want to use a different tuner, maybe TTS or Power Vision. You can add about $400 to $500 for most professionals to tune your bike. An advantage to Power Vision is you only need buy a license, not the complete tuner if tuned by a professional shop.

The difference between a "canned" map and professional tuning is shown in the link below. These are Andrews 48's in one of my bikes. The professional tune pulled about 10 HP and TRQ, and increased power all along the RPM range.


Andrews 48's tuned with Power Vision 

tomz240

February 21, 2022, 07:40:52 AM #4 Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 07:43:57 AM by Ohio HD
Quote from: Ohio HD on February 21, 2022, 06:46:06 AMThe FP3 has cam selections so you can select Andrews 48 and then try to auto tune. It all depends on how much you wish to get from the cam change as to trying to tune the motor yourself or have it professionally tuned.



Most professional tuning shops will want to use a different tuner, maybe TTS or Power Vision. You can add about $400 to $500 for most professionals to tune your bike. An advantage to Power Vision is you only need buy a license, not the complete tuner if tuned by a professional shop.

The difference between a "canned" map and professional tuning is shown in the link below. These are Andrews 48's in one of my bikes. The professional tune pulled about 10 HP and TRQ, and increased power all along the RPM range.


Andrews 48's tuned with Power Vision 

Thanks very much. So 4-5 hundred for the tune plus the cost of the tunner?

Ohio HD

Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 07:40:52 AMThanks very much. So 4-5 hundred for the tune plus the cost of the tunner?

Generally speaking, around that amount. You should check with a few different shops and see what they offer as far as services and price. You'll get a better running bike if professionally tuned.

m1marty

February 21, 2022, 08:38:18 AM #6 Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 08:51:10 AM by Ohio HD
Customer spent months tinkering with the FP3. Said it "ran great, pulls really hard!" but had some light load stumble. After seeing a baseline pull, he immediately elected to go TTS.
He was beyond happy with the end results. I refuse to have anything to do with FuelPacks other than throwing them in the garbage.
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tomz240

Quote from: Ohio HD on February 21, 2022, 07:45:42 AM
Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 07:40:52 AMThanks very much. So 4-5 hundred for the tune plus the cost of the tunner?

Generally speaking, around that amount. You should check with a few different shops and see what they offer as far as services and price. You'll get a better running bike if professionally tuned.

I agree. Thanks a bunch.

tomz240

Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on February 21, 2022, 07:45:42 AM
Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 07:40:52 AMThanks very much. So 4-5 hundred for the tune plus the cost of the tunner?

Generally speaking, around that amount. You should check with a few different shops and see what they offer as far as services and price. You'll get a better running bike if professionally tuned.

I agree. Thanks a bunch.
I'm not doubting anyones knowledge of tuners, but why are TTS tuners better than the FP3? They are pretty close in price. Just trying to learn.

Ohio HD

Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 12:36:37 PMI'm not doubting anyones knowledge of tuners, but why are TTS tuners better than the FP3? They are pretty close in price. Just trying to learn.

Tuners like Techno Research, Power Vision and TTS are considered professional tuning devices. They have the capability to access more data tables in the ECM to perform any needed changes that the bike requires for tuning. It's not a matter of price, it's a matter of what they can do.

The Fp3 manual is about 20 pages, both TTS and Power Vision are 150+ pages. Download the help manuals and read them. They're is much more capability in the professional tuners.

tomz240

Quote from: Ohio HD on February 21, 2022, 12:49:35 PM
Quote from: tomz240 on February 21, 2022, 12:36:37 PMI'm not doubting anyones knowledge of tuners, but why are TTS tuners better than the FP3? They are pretty close in price. Just trying to learn.

Tuners like Techno Research, Power Vision and TTS are considered professional tuning devices. They have the capability to access more data tables in the ECM to perform any needed changes that the bike requires for tuning. It's not a matter of price, it's a matter of what they can do.

The Fp3 manual is about 20 pages, both TTS and Power Vision are 150+ pages. Download the help manuals and read them. They're is much more capability in the professional tuners.
Ok. Thanks for the info.

Coff 06

I'm not familiar with the Fp3. But fuelpacks used to be a piggy back that stayed on the bike and didn't reflash the ECM.Is this still true with the Fp3?
    Coff 06
06 FX Springer, 98",11/1,9B+4*,HPI 55/58 /5.3inj,HDSP Pro Street heads,123/118

Ohio HD

The Fp3 flashes their tune to the ECM.

Coyote

Quote from: Coff 06 on February 21, 2022, 02:18:50 PMI'm not familiar with the Fp3. But fuelpacks used to be a piggy back that stayed on the bike and didn't reflash the ECM.Is this still true with the Fp3?
    Coff 06

Those were Power Commanders

Coff 06

Quote from: Ohio HD on February 21, 2022, 02:24:52 PMThe Fp3 flashes their tune to the ECM.


Gotcha,guess they have progressed a little over the years.
Thanks for the heads up Keith.       Coff
06 FX Springer, 98",11/1,9B+4*,HPI 55/58 /5.3inj,HDSP Pro Street heads,123/118

Coff 06

My original fuelpack was a piggy back,but that's been 15 years ago
      Coff 06
06 FX Springer, 98",11/1,9B+4*,HPI 55/58 /5.3inj,HDSP Pro Street heads,123/118

Hossamania

Quote from: Coff 06 on February 21, 2022, 03:59:29 PMMy original fuelpack was a piggy back,but that's been 15 years ago
      Coff 06

I was thinking the same thing, I put one on a friend's back in '08 and I thought it was a piggyback. Thank you for confirming that I wasn't misremembering.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

millerm64

Quote from: tomz240 on February 20, 2022, 06:09:14 PMI purchased a 2016 SGS. The previous owner had installed the FP3. I am putting Andrews 48H cams in. I read the instructions for the FP3 and have a pretty good idea of the functionality. But I'm not very tech savvy and have no idea what parameters to enter. My question is, should I just do the auto tune feature?

To answer your question "should I just do the auto tune feature?" the quick answer is not yet.  My response is based on myself owning both an FP3 and a Power Vision. The answer below is also based on the assumption that you want to learn about what tuning the bike can achieve.  If you just want the bike to run its best without you messing with it, find a good tuner once the cams are in and let him tune with the unit of his choice.

The FP3 is very easy to use and is a great place to start since you already own it. If you haven't already done so go to https://fuelpak.vanceandhines.com to watch some videos and download the FP3 users manual. There is a video that shows how to get to the different cams. 

Familiarize yourself with all of the function/features of the FP3 as you can't really hurt anything if you don't "flash" a new/modified map. Once you are ready to flash a map give it a try and it may take you more than once to achieve this. Flashing is pretty easy but you want to know how to flash back to a working map if necessary. NOTE: When I started out I always performed a flash of the FP3 at home incase I goofed up or even ran the battery down while I was futzing around. Once I knew what I was doing I would perform a flash anywhere.

Once you have flashed a map you want to ride the bike over several days and riding conditions and try to note how it starts and idles cold/hot, light throttle, quick acceleration etc. (At my age I have to take written notes.) Then you can try auto tuning and see if running improves or actually degrades in some places.  My bike also has an Andrews 48H cam but otherwise stock 103. I found the FP3 was reducing the VE too much in the idle setting after several auto tunes.  When in doubt you can flash back to the base map or an older auto tune easily. If you enjoy the tuning process the auto tuning and subsequent tweaking will become the reason for a ride.

With some tweaking I was able to get my bike to run well with the FP3 but actually found that changing the cam setting seemed to have very little effect on the tune. I suspect that V&H cam settings have more to do with just setting where the MAP sensor reads rather than an actual dyno run with all of the cams they list.

Ultimately I switched to a Power Vison for the ability to monitor/record the engine while riding. I also spend way too much time logging my rides and making small changes in Air Fuel Ratio, timing, etc than is necessary.

Good Luck with whatever you do.

Hossamania

Quote from: millerm64 on February 27, 2022, 06:19:31 AM
Quote from: tomz240 on February 20, 2022, 06:09:14 PMI purchased a 2016 SGS. The previous owner had installed the FP3. I am putting Andrews 48H cams in. I read the instructions for the FP3 and have a pretty good idea of the functionality. But I'm not very tech savvy and have no idea what parameters to enter. My question is, should I just do the auto tune feature?

To answer your question "should I just do the auto tune feature?" the quick answer is not yet.  My response is based on myself owning both an FP3 and a Power Vision. The answer below is also based on the assumption that you want to learn about what tuning the bike can achieve.  If you just want the bike to run its best without you messing with it, find a good tuner once the cams are in and let him tune with the unit of his choice.

The FP3 is very easy to use and is a great place to start since you already own it. If you haven't already done so go to https://fuelpak.vanceandhines.com to watch some videos and download the FP3 users manual. There is a video that shows how to get to the different cams. 

Familiarize yourself with all of the function/features of the FP3 as you can't really hurt anything if you don't "flash" a new/modified map. Once you are ready to flash a map give it a try and it may take you more than once to achieve this. Flashing is pretty easy but you want to know how to flash back to a working map if necessary. NOTE: When I started out I always performed a flash of the FP3 at home incase I goofed up or even ran the battery down while I was futzing around. Once I knew what I was doing I would perform a flash anywhere.

Once you have flashed a map you want to ride the bike over several days and riding conditions and try to note how it starts and idles cold/hot, light throttle, quick acceleration etc. (At my age I have to take written notes.) Then you can try auto tuning and see if running improves or actually degrades in some places.  My bike also has an Andrews 48H cam but otherwise stock 103. I found the FP3 was reducing the VE too much in the idle setting after several auto tunes.  When in doubt you can flash back to the base map or an older auto tune easily. If you enjoy the tuning process the auto tuning and subsequent tweaking will become the reason for a ride.

With some tweaking I was able to get my bike to run well with the FP3 but actually found that changing the cam setting seemed to have very little effect on the tune. I suspect that V&H cam settings have more to do with just setting where the MAP sensor reads rather than an actual dyno run with all of the cams they list.

Ultimately I switched to a Power Vison for the ability to monitor/record the engine while riding. I also spend way too much time logging my rides and making small changes in Air Fuel Ratio, timing, etc than is necessary.

Good Luck with whatever you do.

That is a well written experience.
Do you feel the Power Vision improved performance?
And how would it that really be quantified, seat of the pants notwithstanding, without  comparison Dyno runs?
I will say the the runs aren't necessary if one is happy with their bike, but they do prove data.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

millerm64

Question from Hossamania:
Do you feel the Power Vision improved performance?
And how would it that really be quantified, seat of the pants notwithstanding, without  comparison Dyno runs?
I will say the the runs aren't necessary if one is happy with their bike, but they do prove data.

Answer:
Yes, in many ways, including idle, low speed running and out and out power. The fuel economy is also still about 42 mph recorded over 1500 miles, many tanks of gas even including some hard runs to check ignition timing.

Qualified only with seat of the pants and many miles. (I'd sell a kidney for a Dynojet 250i but Doc says mine are not worth much anymore). After many tweaks to get a steady/quiet cold idle without success, I mapped the idle in open loop at 14.2 AFR and can feel and hear the difference. I ride through a lot of small towns and the bike now runs very smoothly at light throttle all the way down to 1800 rpm. Stock the bike was not happy below 2500 rpm and although it ran better with the FP3, the bike had a light surge at low speeds.

So running performance is more important to me than WOT horsepower. If I was working with a dyno I would still have a conservative tune for fuel mileage and hot/humid weather ignition timing. The only other qualifier was my clutch that would no longer hold at 3500 rpm WOT once the tune was getting dialed in. A Rekluse Torque Drive clutch still using the stock spring was the fix.

Anyway I enjoy the road tuning process and hope Tomz240 gives it a go.

Regards, Mark