Lifters?

[Raleigh111]

What are peoples thoughts on travel limiter lifters vs std.  also what lifters are working good now? Looking a wfo Larry website and he has standard and limited lifters.

[Ohio HD]

If using adjustable pushrods, there is no reason to not use limiters IMHO.

[kd]

    IMO there's no downside to limiters and the upside of hot start protection.  Hot start protection upside is it helps extend the life of the starter, drive and ring gear.

[Raleigh111]

If using adjustable pushrods, there is no reason to not use limiters IMHO.

Thanks, so depth gets cut in about half? What lifters been working good for you?

[Ohio HD]

If using adjustable pushrods, there is no reason to not use limiters IMHO.

Thanks, so depth gets cut in about half? What lifters been working good for you?

It's about the normal 0.100" depth as the limiter is 0.100" thick. The limiters are generally designed to work in conventional HD lifter travel of 0.200".

I haven't really bought many lifters in the past eight or so years. I have a surplus of -B lifters and S&S Supreme that I hoarded for myself. However I have used Johnson lifters a few times, no issues with them. Recently I bought Jim's lifters for my current 124" project. But have no personal experience with them yet.

[kd]

If using adjustable pushrods, there is no reason to not use limiters IMHO.

Thanks, so depth gets cut in about half? What lifters been working good for you?

It's about the normal 0.100" depth as the limiter is 0.100" thick. The limiters are generally designed to work in conventional HD lifter travel of 0.200".

I haven't really bought many lifters in the past eight or so years. I have a surplus of -B lifters and S&S Supreme that I hoarded for myself. However I have used Johnson lifters a few times, no issues with them. Recently I bought Jim's lifters for my current 124" project. But have no personal experience with them yet.

That's not really the way to look at it though.  The limiter wafer does reduce the free area "available) to the plunger movement) in the lifter body spool to about 1/2 of what it usually is.  Down to .100 from .200 travel.  The fact is, when the lifter is loaded under running conditions they do not compress.  That's a misunderstanding.  (only if they are worn and the oil can leak past the plunger).

The method most including myself use to set them is to start by by winding them down until contact is made (like a solid lifter). (tight to spin with your fingers) Then back it off one to two flats. (the point at which you feel them get easier to spin)  At one to two flats you know the valve will not be held off the seat when the engine is cold.  As the engine warms up the aluminum cylinders expand and get taller. (Let's say .040 or more taller)  The pushrods and associated steel valve train components do not seem to grow as much as the aluminum cylinders so when hot the lifter clearance will open up from the initial setting of 2 flats to slightly more.  This keeps the valve train operation silent and the flow of oil through the lifters to the heads as it should be. 

[Thermodyne]

The limiters have one reason for being.  They limit how far the tappet seat can settle (drop) while the motor is sitting.  The more the seat settles, the later the intake valve opens, and the harder the engine is to crank.  It also makes it prone to kicking back against the starter.   

The old way of working around this was to use a starter button on the starter.  Crank the motor over a few turns to readjust the tappets before turning the ign on.   

[Ohio HD]

The limiters have one reason for being.  They limit how far the tappet seat can settle (drop) while the motor is sitting.  The more the seat settles, the later the intake valve opens, and the harder the engine is to crank.  It also makes it prone to kicking back against the starter.   

The old way of working around this was to use a starter button on the starter.  Crank the motor over a few turns to readjust the tappets before turning the ign on. 

The main reason to use them is to insure you don't loose valve lift and timing at high RPM. As a lifter bleeds down, you loose pushrod travel, effecting valve movements. The fact that they aid in cold or hot starting of the motor is a benefit, but was not the reason S&S used them.

Zippers - Travel Limiters

[Thermodyne]

The limiters have one reason for being.  They limit how far the tappet seat can settle (drop) while the motor is sitting.  The more the seat settles, the later the intake valve opens, and the harder the engine is to crank.  It also makes it prone to kicking back against the starter.   

The old way of working around this was to use a starter button on the starter.  Crank the motor over a few turns to readjust the tappets before turning the ign on. 

The main reason to use them is to insure you don't loose valve lift and timing at high RPM. As a lifter bleeds down, you loose pushrod travel, effecting valve movements. The fact that they aid in cold or hot starting of the motor is a benefit, but was not the reason S&S used them.

Zippers - Travel Limiters

Ya, I've seen that, in several places who sell them.  That not the story I got when I spoke with HLJ about it. 

If you think about it, how would a tappet loose lash at high rpm?  Loosing lash is an issue of seat pressure plus time and the lack of pressurized oil.  The seat pressure changes very little across the rpm range.  Tine of pressure on the seat decreases as rpms go up, and if you can't maintain oil feed at high rpm, you have more serious issues than tappets.

What tappets will do, is gain seat height.  AKA valve float.  Thats from valve train separation and the tappet attempting to adjust it out. Harleys don't much suffer from this as they tend to have plenty of spring and reasonable upper RPM limits.  Today the rev limiters kick in before valve train separation takes place.

HLJ said that the original use of the limiters in these tappets was to prevent valve to piston contact when valve train separation occurred and the tappet pumped up.  The limiter was actually just machined into the tappet seat cavity and the rocker studs and nuts were swapped out to increase the accuracy of the adjustment.  They were only used in some Corvettes with specific engines and GM crate boat motors since they required a more complex operation to adjust the lash. 

Seriously, you hear all this stuff about Harley tappets from vendors, sort of like they are some kind of special tappet.  They are just gm tappets, nothing special.  The materials can be good or bad, and the oil metering can be adjusted with the seat. 

[Don D]

We have all but forgotten solids. A few flats of clearance and they work beautifully. Another benefit of the limiters is easier cold starts due to no lost lift from bleed while shut off.

[Thermodyne]

We have all but forgotten solids. A few flats of clearance and they work beautifully. Another benefit of the limiters is easier cold starts due to no lost lift from bleed while shut off.

Remember adjusting the old Shovel/Iron head solid Harley tappets?  Zero lash cold.   

[kd]

We have all but forgotten solids. A few flats of clearance and they work beautifully. Another benefit of the limiters is easier cold starts due to no lost lift from bleed while shut off.

Remember adjusting the old Shovel/Iron head solid Harley tappets?  Zero lash cold.   

As said previously, that's how I adjust my limited hydraulics.  Zero lash plus 1 flat.  Things change when they get hot but they still control the leak down available when shut off.

[Ohio HD]

Ya, I've seen that, in several places who sell them.  That not the story I got when I spoke with HLJ about it. 

If you think about it, how would a tappet loose lash at high rpm?  Loosing lash is an issue of seat pressure plus time and the lack of pressurized oil.  The seat pressure changes very little across the rpm range.  Tine of pressure on the seat decreases as rpms go up, and if you can't maintain oil feed at high rpm, you have more serious issues than tappets.

What tappets will do, is gain seat height.  AKA valve float.  Thats from valve train separation and the tappet attempting to adjust it out. Harleys don't much suffer from this as they tend to have plenty of spring and reasonable upper RPM limits.  Today the rev limiters kick in before valve train separation takes place.

Depends on the application, cam profile, etc.

HLJ said that the original use of the limiters in these tappets was to prevent valve to piston contact when valve train separation occurred and the tappet pumped up. 

Opinions vary...  I'll stick with S&S and Zippers opinions.

Also wouldn't the limiter have to be on top of the lifters piston to stop expansion and inhibit valve to piston contact? That's not what we're talking about here.

And who is HLJ and where is this documented?

[Thermodyne]

Ya, I've seen that, in several places who sell them.  That not the story I got when I spoke with HLJ about it. 

If you think about it, how would a tappet loose lash at high rpm?  Loosing lash is an issue of seat pressure plus time and the lack of pressurized oil.  The seat pressure changes very little across the rpm range.  Tine of pressure on the seat decreases as rpms go up, and if you can't maintain oil feed at high rpm, you have more serious issues than tappets.

What tappets will do, is gain seat height.  AKA valve float.  Thats from valve train separation and the tappet attempting to adjust it out. Harleys don't much suffer from this as they tend to have plenty of spring and reasonable upper RPM limits.  Today the rev limiters kick in before valve train separation takes place.

Depends on the application, cam profile, etc.

HLJ said that the original use of the limiters in these tappets was to prevent valve to piston contact when valve train separation occurred and the tappet pumped up. 

Opinions vary...  I'll stick with S&S and Zippers opinions.

Also wouldn't the limiter have to be on top of the lifters piston to stop expansion and inhibit valve to piston contact? That's not what we're talking about here.

And who is HLJ and where is this documented?

The limiter will do the same thing above or below the seat.  All it does is take up space and reduce the amount of travel in the seat.  Assuming the seat is adjusted to the center of the available space.  All the limiter does is reduce the available space in the bore.  With that said, I not sure how the clip would react to the spacer floating on top of the seat.  Much safer to have it under the seat.

You can do what the limiter does with adjustment.  If you think it should be there to keep the tappet from collapsing, then just adjust the rods so that the seat is only about .010 off the bottom of the bore.  If you want it to prevent it from jacking a valve into the piston or other valve if the tappet pumps up, then adjust the rods so that the seat is just .010 below the clip. 

[Ohio HD]

The limiter will do the same thing above or below the seat.  All it does is take up space and reduce the amount of travel in the seat.  Assuming the seat is adjusted to the center of the available space.  All the limiter does is reduce the available space in the bore.  With that said, I not sure how the clip would react to the spacer floating on top of the seat.  Much safer to have it under the seat.

Feuling has been using limiters on top of the piston for a few years. They ask to adjust the lifters at 0.060" to 0.070", and that's in the reduced travel space of 0.115" that the limiter provides. They do not ask you to bottom them as the S&S limiters are designed to be adjusted. Apples and oranges.

I still stand at my statement as to the intent of the S&S limiters.

[wfolarry]

Putting the limiter on top of the piston only serves a purpose if you float the valves otherwise it's just rattling around in there. Under normal operation the piston never makes contact with the retainer wire/clip.

Putting it under the piston keeps it from bleeding off the adjustment. High rpm's, hot starts & cold starting are all improved.

Do you need them? Most people don't.
 
Do you want them? I've always had them in my bike & I like them.   

If I sold enough lifters that I could have them custom made they would all have the bodies machined with reduced travel. No limiter needed because it is built in. 

Lifter manufacturers like a lot of oil in their lifters.  Adjusting lifters all the way to the bottom reduces that. I know a lot of guys have done it so I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is do what you feel works best for you. Everything has some sort of effect on the valve train. Do what makes you happy.   

Remember there's only one lifter made entirely in the USA. 

[kd]

Putting the limiter on top of the piston only serves a purpose if you float the valves otherwise it's just rattling around in there. Under normal operation the piston never makes contact with the retainer wire/clip.

Putting it under the piston keeps it from bleeding off the adjustment. High rpm's, hot starts & cold starting are all improved.

Do you need them? Most people don't.
 
Do you want them? I've always had them in my bike & I like them.   

If I sold enough lifters that I could have them custom made they would all have the bodies machined with reduced travel. No limiter needed because it is built in. 

Lifter manufacturers like a lot of oil in their lifters.  Adjusting lifters all the way to the bottom reduces that. I know a lot of guys have done it so I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is do what you feel works best for you. Everything has some sort of effect on the valve train. Do what makes you happy.   

Remember there's only one lifter made entirely in the USA. 

Larry, am I reading into what you are saying (you would prefer lifter bodies machined to less travel) that you personally favor the limiting to be done from under the plunger?

[MikeL]

On all my bikes I use the S&S lifters with the travel limiters. I feel the limited bleed down allows for easier starting both hot and cold. Case in point my 2000 RKC in 124 HC configuration still has the original factory starter. I do have the better ring gear/ pinion ratio and compression releases along with the travel limiters.

[Ohio HD]

Putting the limiter on top of the piston only serves a purpose if you float the valves otherwise it's just rattling around in there. Under normal operation the piston never makes contact with the retainer wire/clip.

Putting it under the piston keeps it from bleeding off the adjustment. High rpm's, hot starts & cold starting are all improved.

Do you need them? Most people don't.
 
Do you want them? I've always had them in my bike & I like them.   

If I sold enough lifters that I could have them custom made they would all have the bodies machined with reduced travel. No limiter needed because it is built in. 

Lifter manufacturers like a lot of oil in their lifters.  Adjusting lifters all the way to the bottom reduces that. I know a lot of guys have done it so I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is do what you feel works best for you. Everything has some sort of effect on the valve train. Do what makes you happy.   

Remember there's only one lifter made entirely in the USA. 

Thanks for weighing in Larry. Agree with all you said.   

[JW113]

If I sold enough lifters that I could have them custom made they would all have the bodies machined with reduced travel. No limiter needed because it is built in. 

I believe that is exactly how the Jims Power Glide tappets I just put in my Shovelhead are. You adjust the pushrods to 1-1/2 turns (9 flats), not the typical 2-1/2 to 3. Mine bottom at 11 flats...

-JW

[ziggy24]

Ya, I've seen that, in several places who sell them.  That not the story I got when I spoke with HLJ about it. 

If you think about it, how would a tappet loose lash at high rpm?  Loosing lash is an issue of seat pressure plus time and the lack of pressurized oil.  The seat pressure changes very little across the rpm range.  Tine of pressure on the seat decreases as rpms go up, and if you can't maintain oil feed at high rpm, you have more serious issues than tappets.

What tappets will do, is gain seat height.  AKA valve float.  Thats from valve train separation and the tappet attempting to adjust it out. Harleys don't much suffer from this as they tend to have plenty of spring and reasonable upper RPM limits.  Today the rev limiters kick in before valve train separation takes place.

Depends on the application, cam profile, etc.

HLJ said that the original use of the limiters in these tappets was to prevent valve to piston contact when valve train separation occurred and the tappet pumped up. 

Opinions vary...  I'll stick with S&S and Zippers opinions.

Also wouldn't the limiter have to be on top of the lifters piston to stop expansion and inhibit valve to piston contact? That's not what we're talking about here.

And who is HLJ and where is this documented?

High Lift Johnson. One of about two American companies that manufacture lifters in the US