O/T HVAC

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Just signed a contract to get my HVAC replaced.  Below is what I am having installed and want some feedback on my choices (not to late to change)

Lennox XC21 air conditioner 5 TON
G71MPP Variable-Capacity Gas Furnace 95% efficiency
Pure air
Replacing all flex with Metal Duct and adding an additional 4 returns
Dehumidifier capable of 75 gallons of water removal perday.

Total cost for unit and installation is $11,250 with a $1200 rebate from Lennox, so 10K. Decent deal??

Wanted a Trane or American standard, but the local licensed contractors for those are full of Meth head employees.

Feedback would be appreciated!


Mike

[Princess Butt]

Where are you located? In Virginia, I sure could use a high capacity dehumidifier. It's humid here all summer.

A 5 ton unit? That's pretty big, how much house are you cooling?

Replacing flex duct is a good idea. That stuff restricts airflow.

Additional returns will help air circulation, a very good idea.

Not sure about the price, but you're getting a lot of stuff done.

I don't like the York units, I've known too many people to have problems with them. I'm pretty happy with my Trane. My boss has a Carrier and has zero issues.

BnEUC

[Rokinrider]

 Lenox is good stuff. I had a Goodman installed and the high efficiency stuff saves $$. Alot of components on the new stuff is not as heavy duty as what it used to be but thats the world we live in. I believe there is some federal and utility rebates available also.

Enjoy, Rokin

[Clintster]

Five tons is a lot of  cooling, want to be careful not to overize.  I would have him double check the numbers or ask to see the load calculation figures/program.  Oversizing will cause you to never have proper de-humidification.  Lennox is unique for some components, as far as repair work.  Are you happy with the Lennox dealer locally, he may have you for some parts needs.  They have some stuff that is Lennox only. You may want to shop around, lots of deals to be had.  I favor Carrier or Bryant if economy is needed.  Get an extra spark ignitor for those eventual failures, always happens the coldest day.  This way you can get yourself back on line when it fails.  After warranty maybe get an extra board for the unit, they seem to fail at the worst times as well. Most of these unit have self diagnosis, alpha-numeric like your autos.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Clintster,
House is 2500 SF, and he did a load calculation.  Understand propretory parts, but I am not interested in any of the other local installers.  Lot a crooks here in this military town. Actually wanted an American Standard, local HVAC company is crooked!  Son used to work for them.

Anyway, think I will be pleased.  This company was recommended by many. 54 years in business, in my book that says something.

Mike

[blacknchromehd]

I am in the business and I am surprised by the 5 tons into a 2500 sq ft home. Seems high but I am not aware of your location or the insulation factor and such of your home. You might want to check as there are some goverment rebates as well going higher efficiency.

I have gas heat with a heat pump. Run the heat pump down to 40 deg and then switch to gas. 1800 sq ft home with a 2.5 ton and my yearly gas and electric is $1500.00 total.

$11,000 seems high to me but I know what they cost from suppliers so my thoughts are not right...total cost of the materials will be $5000-5500.00

Bill in York Pa

[fourthgear]

Nothing runs like a Trane. I think Lennox units would not be my first or second choice. Nothing wrong with flex duct if its used in the right place and installed correctly . In air conditioning mode , you are dehumidifying. You must have a basement. Did you get more than one estimate ? Five tons does sound a bit high for your house , but so many factors to work into it.It could be right . Price is high , I would get more estimates.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

blacknchromehd- appreciate the insight.  I live in southwest Oklahoma, Home was built in 1998, insulation in the walls is the fiber wrapped and then blown in type ( 2x4 walls) Cellotex and house wrapped exterior with brick veneer. House faces the west, low Windows and not a lot trees. Around here the basic rule of thumb is 425-450 sq ft per ton. Air handler/furnace is in the attic (10/12 pitch roof) 3 feet of blown in insulation. Average utility bills (electric) have been over $300 for the last 10 years. (current unit is Reahm 10 seer heatpump)

Lennox was not first choice either, I actually wanted an american standard unit, but dint trust the crooks that are the licensed dealers for them. Second choice was trane, again the company that is the distributor has a terrible reputation.  My son is a licensed installer and has worked for both companies.

I currently have a heatpump with gas backup- decide to get away from the heatpump as I have not been impressed with the heatpump heat- I always switch to emergency heat in the winter.    

I thought the price was high also, but is the best out of three I have had done.

I also decided to go with the metal duct because my son and I have installed a lot of it already and it will be reused, and the remainder of the flex replaced.

I actually considered a Goodman unit, and have my son install it. Decided against it after reading numerous posts on issues with the units. That, and the lower SEER ratings.

[tnicean]

I live in Richmond, VA.  House is 1800 sq. ft.  I had a 2.5 ton Trane, 12 SEER installed in 1996 with a 10 year warranty.  I never used the warranty.  Unit is now almost 13 years old (this August).  I get it serviced once or twice a year.  It's hard to stop a TRANE (that advertisment had an affect on me, I guess).  When I get ready to replace this unit, I will get another TRANE. 
Tnicean

[wavlovr1]

I just replaced a Lennox propane gas heater. It was still working at 21 years of age. I replaced it because the most efficient units 21 years ago were at best 50% efficient. The new one is 93+ efficient and so far uses much less propane. The other reason to replace a 21 year old working unit was winter temps here in the minus double digits and just knew it couldn't last much longer.. The HVAC man told me my old unit was the "Worst one lennox ever made", and it was still working at 21 years...

jb

[Sportsterboy]

Just replaced our York heat pump/AC unit with an American Standard unit.  16 SEER and qualified for the $1500 tax rebate being offered this year.  Have only had a month, so really can't tell too much, except it is so quiet that you can barely tell it is running, and compressor is just outside our bedroom window.  York was 12 years old and last winter had it "fixed" 3 times and was beginning to appear like a bottomless money pit.  Install guys were top notch and did a super job.  They had 16 month 0% interest offer to boot!  Nothing like using someone else's money.....Previous experiences with HVAC installers (where we used to live) was less than stellar.  Back in '86 was having a new Lennox gas furnace/AC unit installed.  Went down the basement to see how it was going after coming home from work.  There were "spots" all over the basement floor.  Turned out one of the installers was using Skoal and spitting on my basement floor.  He cleaned up his mess and was gone from that point of the install.  13 years later, different house, having Lennox gas furnace/AC unit put in, came home at noon to check how they were doing & one of the install guys was sitting in company van smoking a joint!!  This was the day they were doing the gas furnace and hooking gas lines up.  His boss & I had a "come to Jesus" talk that day......new crew finished the job.  

[Coasty]

My carrier AC unit is 18 years old, PM it yearly and never had to add refigerant my next will be a Carrier too.

[shovelmonster76]

I have been installing Amana (Goodman) systems for three years now for residential customers and have not had one call back on any system. Probably more than 100 systems, but I install and make sure thereare no contaminants and we don't have any leaks. Right now they have a standard 10 year parts warranty and an optional 10 year labor warranty for an extra $99 per piece, which would be $198 and you would be completely covered for ten years. Also there is a $1500 tax cred available if you go with a higher seer model. If your son is a licensed installer and can buy the equipment at wholesale you can save some major cash.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Shovelmonster,
I seriously considered the Goodman brand, but again after doing some research, along with the 16 Seer rating being their best model,  I decided to go with a professional install. Also did not want another contractor grade unit (current unit is a Rheem 10 seer HP)  Actually gave the company my son works for, first shot. They were way to high! Anyway, thanks for the insight. 

The one thing that really p!sses me off is that I live in upscale area, prices for any work go up by 20% once a contractor enters the gate.

Mike

[Ridetard]

I am in the business and I am surprised by the 5 tons into a 2500 sq ft home. Seems high but I am not aware of your location or the insulation factor and such of your home. You might want to check as there are some goverment rebates as well going higher efficiency.

I have gas heat with a heat pump. Run the heat pump down to 40 deg and then switch to gas. 1800 sq ft home with a 2.5 ton and my yearly gas and electric is $1500.00 total.

$11,000 seems high to me but I know what they cost from suppliers so my thoughts are not right...total cost of the materials will be $5000-5500.00

Bill in York Pa

I concur with this opinion.  5 Ton for 2500sq feet is excessive.  Be better off with a smaller unit and a larger "A" coil.   Another thing I have come accross is many contractors will try to compensate for poor duct work with higher Tonage..this is a no no and will create a condesation nightmare somewhere in your home.

Contractors are hungry now, shop around.  Most have no clue on performing a heat load calculation and most depend on a manufacturer rep and THEIR laptop to figure your needs.  You can have two home with the same square footage and the Tonage may vary a considerably depand on a good heat load calc based on all variables (number of inhabitants, applicances, number and type of windows, insulation, local shade, prevailing winds, etc....) $11 Grand?   Again, excessive.    Material cost will be about 5 grand (on the high side).  No matter what is installed, it all comes down to installation (ductwork).

I would shop around a bit more.

[shovelmonster76]

I just looked at the design temps for winter and summer and they are slightly different than here in Atl. For summer it is 99 deg. vs. our 92 deg. In winter it is 16 deg. vs. our 22deg. It is a rule of thumb here that 1 ton of air will cool 600 square feet of well insulated space such as a house or small office. In commercial applications that number could get as low as 250 sq. ft per ton depending on the style of building or materials. In saying that, I do not believe that the load calculation you were given is that inaccurate. Still sounds a bit pricey but depending on the seer rating you go with you could pay for system through your energy savings. Our suppliers have calculated power savings and came up with changing an 8 seer heat pump that is running properly with a 13 seer heat pump and the energy bill went from 1800/ year to 1200/ year. If you go from 10 seer equipment to say 16 or 18 seer and they can prove that your matched system can achieve that rating, the price you gave really isn't all that bad because in the long run you will be saving real money. Also you will be eligable for the tax credit.

[crossbonz]

mike,

i just did a remodel adding a little over 800 sq ft to my house, making it a little over 2500 total under air. i went with a 2.5 ton unit, removed all my old ducting replaced with new, new gas furnace combo with the A/C unit. all for $7K! i live in florida with high humidity and heat and it cools the house easily, and it reduced my electric bill to about 125-150/month. the problem with too big of a unit is removal of the humidity, so be careful as others have stated. i think $11K would be a little high, even for a 5 ton unit, especially if you don't need it. good luck and let us know how it turns out.

johnny

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Update:
Unit was completed on the 18th of June.  I am super happy with the system, clean air is remarkable.  Having the unit for roughly two week of June, reduced my electric bill by 38% from previous year.  Average temp has been 103 since install. System seems to run much longer then the last unit I had.  It has only kicked into stage 2 once, it was 113 Degrees outside.  Thermostat has been set at 74 since install.

Lennox may not be the best unit out there, but I am happy.

I did install two Exhaust vents in the attic, one at the gable and one at the peak.  Dallas style roof, 10/12 pitch-brought attic temp down by 50+ degrees.
Mike

[Ken R]

I think you did just fine. 
I've owned a medium sized HVAC business for 26 years, just sold it in January and retired.  My company sold Carrier/Bryant equipment. 

5 tons for 2,500 sq ft is not excessive; especially in your area of the country where 100 to 110 degrees and higher humidity is common.  500 sq ft per ton is a good rule-of-thumb in this area and probably yours, too.  The 95% furnace is good too.  You'll really like it.
   
Everyone has their opinion of manufacturers.  Lennox is one of the best.  Trane is O.K.  I never preferred Trane because they'll sell to anyone.  You never know what kind of dealer you'll get or who will be installing it.  They have huge marketing to make everyone think it's the best.  It isn't. 
Goodman is bottom-of-the-line.  Here in Dallas, if you want "cheap" you buy Goodman.  They're noisy, rattly, and capacity ratings are misleading. 

Two-stage equipment is great.  I highly recommended it.   Yes, it should run very long cycles (in the 2-1/2 ton mode) and only go up to 5-tons when needed. 

I think that the price was good, too.  When you buy top-of-the-line equipment, you get exactly what you pay for.  The price is comparative to what you'd have spent for the same installation here in Dallas. 

Ken

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Ken,
(Thanks for the insight, I am really impressed with this unit.  Has only gone in 5 ton mode once that I am aware of, since install and it's a silent operation.  Humidtrol is also nice.

Very pleased and cool  
Mike

[Ken R]

I put Carrier/Bryant 2-speed heat and 2-speed cool in my house just before retiring and selling my business.  Two systems, 3-ton and 4-ton.  They run in half-capacity almost all the time.  In the hottest part of the afternoons, the 4-ton will ramp up for a few cycles.  Then, back to low capacity to try to maintain.  I built my home in 1976, it's not nearly as efficiency at yours or newer construction. 

You are also right about humidity control.  Long soft cycles means that more humidity is removed from the air than if it were a 5-ton unit that turned completely OFF and ON. 

10 years ago, we struggled to sell the 2-speed heating and cooling units.  Then, in 2006, business boomed.  Now, my clients that bought 2-speed equipment say, "I'll never go back to a single-speed unit!"    I think you've made a wise decision and your choice of equipment and installing dealership will be returned to you for many years to come. 

Ken