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Electrical mystery. A real who done it.

Started by Thermodyne, April 24, 2022, 07:24:32 PM

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Thermodyne

2019 Road Glide Ultra.  114 wet head.

Every now and again it will draw the battery down.  Mostly it can sit for a month or more with no issues starting.  But occasionally if it sits for 5 or 6 days, the batty is down.  And it seems to have spells of doing this.  It'll do it two or three times in a row, then be fine for a few months.  Charging system works fine, and it will come right back up after it starts.  No codes, so it's not going to point me at the issue.

Other than when it is pulling the battery down, its fine.  It has a Thundermax ECM.  The only other electrical accessories it has are Harley.  It has the rear filler panel lights and the accessory wiring harness/relay set up that enables the two right side accessory switches.

No whole amp draws have ever been detected with the key off.  And milliamp draws on the fuses are as expected.  Measured at the fuses, they drop off to nothing a few seconds after the key is off.  To pull the battery down in 5 days, it needs to be pretty close to an amp draw.

Basically, the only circuits not checked directly is the circuit that taps off the main fuse wire to feed the BCM and connect the regulator and a few other odds and ends.  It has been checked at the main fuse and shown nothing. But it could also be that I'm just not checking when the issue is actually pulling on the battery. 

The randomness of the draw indicates that something is either occasionally not powering down, or something is switching back on after sitting with the key off.  And for what its worth, the key switch only signals the BCM, it carries no meaningful load. And that has me suspecting the BCM. But I guess it could be the radio, or any of the other electronics that draw power from that always hot BCM circuit.   

Anyone ever run into anything like this? 

smoserx1

The only way I could think  you could diagnose this would be with a data logging multi tester checking for parasitic draw, and they are very expensive.  I believe Fluke may offer a model with this capability.  Anyway no, the only thing I have ever seen behave like this is my cell phone, and I suspect that is when it is doing something in the background like pinging or updating.  Hard to imagine a BCM doing this, but things are getting pretty sophisticated.  Wondering if your battery itself may have an occasional issue increasing its internal resistance, not bad enough to call it an internal short but maybe a small piece of slightly conductive debris occasional making an internal connection between plates causing a low current draw inside the battery itself?

Thermodyne

Quote from: smoserx1 on April 25, 2022, 04:15:52 AMThe only way I could think  you could diagnose this would be with a data logging multi tester checking for parasitic draw, and they are very expensive.  I believe Fluke may offer a model with this capability.  Anyway no, the only thing I have ever seen behave like this is my cell phone, and I suspect that is when it is doing something in the background like pinging or updating.  Hard to imagine a BCM doing this, but things are getting pretty sophisticated.  Wondering if your battery itself may have an occasional issue increasing its internal resistance, not bad enough to call it an internal short but maybe a small piece of slightly conductive debris occasional making an internal connection between plates causing a low current draw inside the battery itself?

Swapped the battery out, no change. Running down so often put a hurting on the original one.

I can and have left the meter attached with the high low record running.  Never caught anything, but the battery also never ran down while it was attached.

I'm reluctant to just throw parts at it, but it will soon be down to that.  I can swap the ecm back to original, and I think I can run it with the radio disconnected.  But the BCM and the voltage regulator are another story.  I guess I can just unplug the BCM and let it sit, see what happens.  But the coolant system has to be opened up to get to the regulator.

JSD

Thats a hard one Thermo. Could it be the battery ?

Thermodyne

Quote from: JSD on April 25, 2022, 10:13:16 PMThats a hard one Thermo. Could it be the battery ?

I don't think so, just for shits and giggles I ran a full test sequence on the battery tonight.  And it passed.  4 times in a row, held over 10 volts with a 225 amp load for 15 seconds each time.

With the ground bypassed through the ammeter for 12 hours, I never saw anything, but then it not like I sat there looking at it the whole time.  I had the VOM recording H/L m/v at the same time and at some point it saw 2 m/v.  That's not enough to cause an issue. 

In asking some people who work on these things for a living, I've gotten zip.  But one discussion did run along the line of if they don't see the draw in an hour of observation, and it passes the battery/charging/starter test, then it would be NPF on the work order.  And it was mentioned a couple of times that some of these scooters seem to be tender dependent.     

kd

April 26, 2022, 08:26:55 AM #5 Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 09:00:49 AM by kd
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 25, 2022, 10:55:52 PM
Quote from: JSD on April 25, 2022, 10:13:16 PMThats a hard one Thermo. Could it be the battery ?

I don't think so, just for "Potty mouth"s and giggles I ran a full test sequence on the battery tonight.  And it passed.  4 times in a row, held over 10 volts with a 225 amp load for 15 seconds each time.

With the ground bypassed through the ammeter for 12 hours, I never saw anything, but then it not like I sat there looking at it the whole time.  I had the VOM recording H/L m/v at the same time and at some point it saw 2 m/v.  That's not enough to cause an issue. 

In asking some people who work on these things for a living, I've gotten zip.  But one discussion did run along the line of if they don't see the draw in an hour of observation, and it passes the battery/charging/starter test, then it would be NPF on the work order.  And it was mentioned a couple of times that some of these scooters seem to be tender dependent.     

Antigravity sells a battery tracker that I use.  It monitors the electrical use and supply.  You can monitor it from a phone app.  It will tell you what the "activity" is and records it to the second and duration.  There are many uses for it like cranking draw, chg rate, when the draw begins and ends.  I have even used mine to tell me when I started the bike or traveled from one place to another how long it took.  I would think you may be able to find historic information in a tuner or ECM to match it.  :nix:

My point is it is very inexpensive, does not have to be mounted to work, and will get you closer to finding a clue.  If this is a customer's bike I would bet they will want to keep it once they see what it will do.  If you keep it you will have a new tool or can mount it on your bike to use it as I do.

Have a look here and I hope it helps.  I found it well worth the $36 and learned a ton about the performance of my charging system, lithium charger characteristics, battery storage, and as I said what is happening at different temps and riding conditions.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productline/accessories/battery/chargers/
KD

Thermodyne

Quote from: kd on April 26, 2022, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 25, 2022, 10:55:52 PM
Quote from: JSD on April 25, 2022, 10:13:16 PMThats a hard one Thermo. Could it be the battery ?

I don't think so, just for "Potty mouth"s and giggles I ran a full test sequence on the battery tonight.  And it passed.  4 times in a row, held over 10 volts with a 225 amp load for 15 seconds each time.

With the ground bypassed through the ammeter for 12 hours, I never saw anything, but then it not like I sat there looking at it the whole time.  I had the VOM recording H/L m/v at the same time and at some point it saw 2 m/v.  That's not enough to cause an issue. 

In asking some people who work on these things for a living, I've gotten zip.  But one discussion did run along the line of if they don't see the draw in an hour of observation, and it passes the battery/charging/starter test, then it would be NPF on the work order.  And it was mentioned a couple of times that some of these scooters seem to be tender dependent.     

Antigravity sells a battery tracker that I use.  It monitors the electrical use and supply.  You can monitor it from a phone app.  It will tell you what the "activity" is and records it to the second and duration.  There are many uses for it like cranking draw, chg rate, when the draw begins and ends.  I have even used mine to tell me when I started the bike or traveled from one place to another how long it took.  I would think you may be able to find historic information in a tuner or ECM to match it.  :nix:

My point is it is very inexpensive, does not have to be mounted to work, and will get you closer to finding a clue.  If this is a customer's bike I would bet they will want to keep it once they see what it will do.  If you keep it you will have a new tool or can mount it on your bike to use it as I do.

Have a look here and I hope it helps.  I found it well worth the $36 and learned a ton about the performance of my charging system, lithium charger characteristics, battery storage, and as I said what is happening at different temps and riding conditions.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productline/accessories/battery/chargers/

If nothing else, it would let me see the condition of the battery without walking out to the garage.  I don't know how many times I have needed to boost start this thing, even when it was just ridden a day or two before.  I actually carry a jump box on the scooter.  Never needed it on the road.  But many times I had to use it to start the scooter in the garage.

kd

April 26, 2022, 11:57:41 AM #7 Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 12:03:48 PM by kd
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 26, 2022, 10:54:13 AM
Quote from: kd on April 26, 2022, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 25, 2022, 10:55:52 PM
Quote from: JSD on April 25, 2022, 10:13:16 PMThats a hard one Thermo. Could it be the battery ?

I don't think so, just for "Potty mouth"s and giggles I ran a full test sequence on the battery tonight.  And it passed.  4 times in a row, held over 10 volts with a 225 amp load for 15 seconds each time.

With the ground bypassed through the ammeter for 12 hours, I never saw anything, but then it not like I sat there looking at it the whole time.  I had the VOM recording H/L m/v at the same time and at some point it saw 2 m/v.  That's not enough to cause an issue. 

In asking some people who work on these things for a living, I've gotten zip.  But one discussion did run along the line of if they don't see the draw in an hour of observation, and it passes the battery/charging/starter test, then it would be NPF on the work order.  And it was mentioned a couple of times that some of these scooters seem to be tender dependent.     

Antigravity sells a battery tracker that I use.  It monitors the electrical use and supply.  You can monitor it from a phone app.  It will tell you what the "activity" is and records it to the second and duration.  There are many uses for it like cranking draw, chg rate, when the draw begins and ends.  I have even used mine to tell me when I started the bike or traveled from one place to another how long it took.  I would think you may be able to find historic information in a tuner or ECM to match it.  :nix:

My point is it is very inexpensive, does not have to be mounted to work, and will get you closer to finding a clue.  If this is a customer's bike I would bet they will want to keep it once they see what it will do.  If you keep it you will have a new tool or can mount it on your bike to use it as I do.

Have a look here and I hope it helps.  I found it well worth the $36 and learned a ton about the performance of my charging system, lithium charger characteristics, battery storage, and as I said what is happening at different temps and riding conditions.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productline/accessories/battery/chargers/

If nothing else, it would let me see the condition of the battery without walking out to the garage.  I don't know how many times I have needed to boost start this thing, even when it was just ridden a day or two before.  I actually carry a jump box on the scooter.  Never needed it on the road.  But many times I had to use it to start the scooter in the garage.


It will show you on a graph when the battery voltage is dropping (discharging) or charging.  I believe you can set an alarm to notify you it is occurring.  (I would have to look into that function because I don't remember using it yet.)  If you have a battery tender on it, it will also let you know (notify) if it is discharging and how much.  Those types of information may give you the opportunity you are looking for to trouble shoot it.  It stores a 30 day detailed record.  If you choose to be notified don't be surprised if it wakes you up in the middle of the night though.   :doh:   Mine works to 30 meters with blue tooth through the walls.  I can check mine from pretty well anywhere in my home. 

added later:

I do remember the setting now.  (I think)  It gives you the ability to set the parameters so you have a window that it can discharge a bit if you leave the key on for any reason on purpose.  (radio etc.)
KD

Thermodyne

Might have found it. 

After a bunch of switch cycles, and watching the amps drop off in stages to zero as it went to sleep, it hung at a 10th of an amp and showed some currant flow across the battery fuse (the little on that feeds the ecm-volt meter-fuel gauge)  And I got it to repeat a few times. 

So I went and got the original ecm and reinstalled it, and so far have not been able to repeat the issue.  Now its just a waiting game to see what happens. 

JSD


smoserx1

Good work!  Yes a tenth of an amp would brain most motorcycle batteries pretty good in a week and a half or so.  Hope you got it.

Pirsch Fire Wagon

Check the Voltage Regulator. You can disconnect it and see if it does it.
Tom

Thermodyne

Quote from: Pirsch Fire Wagon on April 28, 2022, 07:10:06 AMCheck the Voltage Regulator. You can disconnect it and see if it does it.

Easier said than done on an ultra.

Thermodyne

OK, it's been 48 hours plus a little since I swapped the Delphi ecm for the tmax.  And so far there has been no draw.

I have my Fluke min-maxing where the main fuse goes, and have nothing.  And I put a BT monitor on the battery, voltage line is perfectly flat.  But I've been here before.  Its sat in the shop for more than a month and been fine. 

So I need to get it out and ride it with the Delphi ecm.  Problem is that with these S&S cams, the map sensor is too unsteady at idle and it pushes it rich to the point of setting O2 rich codes.  The 465 has a stagger in the event timing front to rear.  I suspect its just there to alter the idle sound.  But it has the map sensor bouncing all over the place.

And from my previous experience with a Tmax ecm issue, I will probably need to run the Delphi unit for more than a month.  So that leaves me with retuning it.  I can get my indy to do his thing on the dyno, he uses one of those systems where the license is on a usb key and no other hardware is used.  Or I can buy another tuner, like Powervision.  I sort of always wanted to play with one of those at length.  But the conservative in me says I should keep this ecm legal, just in case the day arrives that DC drops the hammer on us and requires plug in testing every year like we do with the cages in this area.  And since Harley has already made the scooters compatible with the 6 pin data connector, the first step has already been taken down that path.  So that puts that Street tuner in the mix.  Finally, since I'm chasing an electrical issue, I would be very hesitant to use a piggy back tuner.

Right now I'm leaning in the direction of the Street Tuner.  For the above reason, and because its the least expensive, and the quickest to get my hands on.

Here's a look at the little battery tracker thing I got so I can see the battery voltage from my phone.  If nothing else it will prevent me from unexpectedly finding the battery dead.  It tracks voltage and has an alarm for if the battery runs low.  Two step threshold that you can set.  Antigravity sells them.  It just runs on your phone and reaches as far as BT is able to.



This is the main page the ap returns



And it graphs 30 days 24 hours at a time



For the amp draw, I just put my Fluke VOM in series with the main fuse and then removed the fuse.  With it set to min-max it will record any amp draw it sees.  And at that location it covers every load on the scooter except the starter motor.



This damn draw has me by the balls now.  I'm not going to be able to just say screw it, like I have in the past.  I really do hate having a vehicle that is less than 100% dependable.


       

kd

I chose to mount my Battery Tracker to the fender behind the battery.  I have my Dynatec shift Minder and Pingel module where yours is. It would be a hassle to remove it as a tool but I only have 1 of 3 bikes on lithium.  Yours is accessible so you could actually remove it for testing other bikes.  You get cranking each time you start it or as a special event. There's 30 days of recorded history so you can review trends.  A funny day may show up on the weather history as a scorcher for example.  I watch my battery tender and I get a bit of an idea what my security, clock, LoJac theft recovery tracker etc. draws.  As I said I have confirmed trip travel times on the graph. There's lots of feel good things going on so I don't rate it as just a gadget. For the price I think they are great.
KD

Thermodyne

I'll just use the velcro and mount it in the dead space in front of the battery.  The filler for that small battery has open space front and rear, but the area to the rear gets wet.  The area in front of the battery appears to stay dry

It's strange that Harley didn't put a plastic shield in there, the back of the battery, and the ABS module are basically exposed to everything the tire throws up in there.  Prolly saved a buck a scooter by not installing one.

Thermodyne

So far it has been fine with the Delphi ecm installed.  I put the Tmax back in the other night just to make sure I had a good save the current map off of it and decided to leave it in for a while and see what happened.  That night something pulled on the battery for about 6 hours, then stopped. No idea what but the peak was 1.7 amps.  So I put the Delphi back in and it has not repeated. 

As I said above, it set a rich O2 code on a cold start with the Delphi installed.  But I noticed if I let it warm up and then cleared the code, it did not reset it.  So I took it for a run yesterday, and it surprised me how well it ran with the oem tune.  Just easy riding it was pretty good.  It didn't like any fast throttle changes, like throttle shifting.  And it didn't have much umph above 3500, but it wasn't pinging or backfiring.  I was also a little surprised at how much the exhaust tone changed, especially on engine braking. 

kd

It looks like you may have just got your $36 worth on the Battery Tracker paid back with useable information it saved.  :up:
KD

Deye76

East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

Thermodyne

Quote from: Deye76 on May 03, 2022, 04:21:10 PMGoing to have Tmax check the unit?
 

Ya, its still under warranty.  I would just like to be able to convince them of the fault first, rather than rely on them being able to duplicate it on the bench. 

Been running it a little on the Delphi ecm, and it was not really liking it, for anything more than putting around.  So I put a Power Vision on it.  And will continue to use it as normal, looking to see if the draw returns.

Tmax to PV is really more of a differance than I expected.  The throttle feel is the biggest change, its gonna take me a minute or two to adjust to it for throttle shifting and such.  The PV is a little more responsive under 3000rpm.  But doesn't have as much pull in the higher rpms.  And the idle quality is a little more choppy even though its 100 rpm higher.  I'm guessing that that's what a lot of people are asking for.

Thermodyne

Here's an update.

Since swapping back to the Delphi ecm a month ago this week, the scooter has been fine.  I'm pretty much convinced the issue is in the Tmax ecm.

I think I'll put the Tmax back in and see if the issue returns.  If it does, then I'll be 100% convinced.

Thermodyne

OK time for another update.

I sent the Tmax back to Thunderheart and they say they didn't find anything wrong with it.  But it came back with my housing and another board.  Board has a munch of marks and hand writing on the chips.  Don't know if they are all like that or if this was a repaired board.  It was raw, I had to enter all of the data just like it was brand new.

Just put it in yesterday, so can't say for sure if its fixed, but no draw last night.

The month that the Delphi ecm was in the bike it was fine.  Even sat for 8 days twice without needing to be on the tender.

smoserx1

Thanks for keeping us updated on this.  Too many folks start threads and people never know the outcome or resolution to the issue.  Good job.