Excessive breather puke

[FLDavetrain]

'16 FLH. It's a new event after 1200 miles on 131" build. Here's what I've noticed;
Takes 10+ miles to show up and only at that point it starts oil pressure fluctuation 14-30 psi w mild throttle, usually bounces between 23-30 and doesn't seem to stay at one number for more than 2 secs. Oil starts dumping (2-3 oz ea head, rear more). It's externally vented. Tank vent also. It's always had 13 ish in the sump (sns cases) occasionally more. Bike dyno'd 150+ and never felt sluggish from sump. No excessive heat for what bike is. Running oil near bottom of stick.
Bike had new stamped breathers w new build. Pulled those for lack of ideas and installed vulcan set up w support plate/shafts/breathers (no change). Open to ideas and help, much obliged

[kd]

Were the breathers assembled properly.  There have been reports that when installed the way they are packaged they act like you describe.  That however doesn't account for your oil pressure fluctuation.  If that is proven to be occurring on a mechanical gauge too it makes me think air cavitation.  Possible your 13 0z sump finding (rather large) is the precursor to a problem with the sump pickup and now it is delivering shots of air to the pressure side. Maybe an O-ring issue?

[FLDavetrain]

Were the breathers assembled properly.  There have been reports that when installed the way they are packaged they act like you describe.  That however doesn't account for your oil pressure fluctuation.  If that is proven to be occurring on a mechanical gauge too it makes me think air cavitation.  Possible your 13 0z sump finding (rather large) is the precursor to a problem with the sump pickup and now it is delivering shots of air to the pressure side. Maybe an O-ring issue?

I've read somewhere here the SnS cases hold more at sump. Breathers are correct install and pretty confident on pump oring unless that can change in 1200 miles. Mechanical gauge has been checked. Bike has jagg 10 row. When I pulled the oem stamped breathers there was gunk (glue) I'm assuming from the gasket to metal surface that was peeling off. Not what u want to see and is there outside chance some got away and blocked a passage? Plate/pump are also SnS. This is a new event but sump volume same since start. Would it be worth while to drop oil pan and put a suction on the return and feed hole? The rear wheel coming off for rubber anyways

[FLDavetrain]

Also cases have been modified for stock oiling

[Ohio HD]

Did you check the operation of the piston oilers prior to assembling the motor? Also could be dirt in one of the oilers. They get oil pressure from the feed that comes from the main lifter feed.

[FLDavetrain]

Did you check the operation of the piston oilers prior to assembling the motor? Also could be dirt in one of the oilers. They get oil pressure from the feed that comes from the main lifter feed.

Oilers checked on install. Plugs look good, cylinder walls good, no oil intake track or exhaust. Once it gets to that 10+ mile ride it just pours out non stop it seems

[Ohio HD]

It didn't have this condition at all when dyno tuned?

[Ohio HD]

Did you perform a leakdown test?

[FLDavetrain]

It didn't have this condition at all when dyno tuned?

Correct

Did you perform a leakdown test?

I'd have to take it somewhere for that, tried leakdown years ago and failed at it

[FXDBI]

It didn't have this condition at all when dyno tuned?

Correct

Did you perform a leakdown test?

I'd have to take it somewhere for that, tried leakdown years ago and failed at it

Try a compression test first.  Bob

[plumberglen]

following , similar issues on 106 rebuild

[Ohio HD]

Who drilled the case? If the feed hole were drilled a little to deep, even slightly breaking through the inner wall. It would act as you described. Doesn't do it until up to temperature and the oil thins a but. But then it would have done that on the dyno. That part doesn't make any sense. On the dyno it got plenty warm, should have seen the same problem immediately.   

FYI, I don't know how the leak down can be "messed up". All you need is 100 PSI air line pressure, put a piston on top dead center compression stroke, start putting air into the cylinder and watch the gauges. Block the wheel, brakes etc., so the motor doesn't turn over during the test. Do the test when the motor is cold. Then when it's hot to compare.

[FLDavetrain]

Struggled to keep piston stable last time I tried a leak down. I'll run comp test and give leak down another go this weekend. Thanks for the help Ohio   

[rigidthumper]

I use this to do leakdown tests.

[Buglet]

  That is the tool to use, you can check it with the piston were ever you want. TDC, BDC, or in the middle. It's a good way to see in you have piston cylinder problems.

[Ohio HD]

I use this to do leakdown tests.

I have one as well. Just don't forget that it's in there. 

Truthfully, I tie a small rope to the  eye in the tag, and run it up to the right grip to keep my feeble mind in check.

[FLDavetrain]

Here's the plugs, TTS tune, 13.2 ish cruise, closed loop. Ordered that handy Jim's tool for leak down

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[FLDavetrain]

Oops misprint, 14.2/3:1 cruise

[Admiral Akbar]

'16 FLH. It's a new event after 1200 miles on 131" build. Here's what I've noticed;
Takes 10+ miles to show up and only at that point it starts oil pressure fluctuation 14-30 psi w mild throttle, usually bounces between 23-30 and doesn't seem to stay at one number for more than 2 secs. Oil starts dumping (2-3 oz ea head, rear more). It's externally vented. Tank vent also. It's always had 13 ish in the sump (sns cases) occasionally more. Bike dyno'd 150+ and never felt sluggish from sump. No excessive heat for what bike is. Running oil near bottom of stick.
Bike had new stamped breathers w new build. Pulled those for lack of ideas and installed vulcan set up w support plate/shafts/breathers (no change). Open to ideas and help, much obliged

With 150 hp, it's hard to tell if the motor is sumping.  The oil pressure fluctuation might be part of it tho.. Oil level in the tanks drops low enough to suck air. On my 131, I had issues with breather blowing oil and sumping on SnS cases with a Fueling pump, went to SnS 3 gerotor and the problem got much better. Sumping was most noticeable when cruising at 70 / freeway and temps above 90F.  Still have to use a breather catch can tho.. Get mostly grey poupon and water.  Since the rebuild with the SnS pump, the motor has run like a swiss watch..

[FLDavetrain]

'16 FLH. It's a new event after 1200 miles on 131" build. Here's what I've noticed;
Takes 10+ miles to show up and only at that point it starts oil pressure fluctuation 14-30 psi w mild throttle, usually bounces between 23-30 and doesn't seem to stay at one number for more than 2 secs. Oil starts dumping (2-3 oz ea head, rear more). It's externally vented. Tank vent also. It's always had 13 ish in the sump (sns cases) occasionally more. Bike dyno'd 150+ and never felt sluggish from sump. No excessive heat for what bike is. Running oil near bottom of stick.
Bike had new stamped breathers w new build. Pulled those for lack of ideas and installed vulcan set up w support plate/shafts/breathers (no change). Open to ideas and help, much obliged

With 150 hp, it's hard to tell if the motor is sumping.  The oil pressure fluctuation might be part of it tho.. Oil level in the tanks drops low enough to suck air. On my 131, I had issues with breather blowing oil and sumping on SnS cases with a Fueling pump, went to SnS 3 gerotor and the problem got much better. Sumping was most noticeable when cruising at 70 / freeway and temps above 90F.  Still have to use a breather catch can tho.. Get mostly grey poupon and water.  Since the rebuild with the SnS pump, the motor has run like a swiss watch..

Happy for you. My Casio needs something.
This bike has had piston failure w metal transfer on prior build. Flushed oil pan much as possible til it ran clear. However not opening up the top plate, is there anything regarding the pan that could be blocked and cause these symptoms? If anyone can enlighten me on that.

[FLDavetrain]

Front 210 rear 198 psi 100* head temp
Stage 5 R&R casting
And 20 oz in sump today so ya it's not returning to tank

[Ohio HD]

Just FYI, I would never reuse a 2009 and up oil pan if there were motor damage involved. There's no way to know that it's really clean and that there aren't any metal chips / slivers. Some guys have milled the casting rivets away, drilled and tapped for fasteners so it can be cleaned properly.

This is one that Mega Flo did. He can fix you up.
Mega Flo Touring oil Pan

That's how HD makes the SE pans, with removeable fasteners.
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Make sure to look at the pump when you get in there.

[FSG]

I use this to do leakdown tests.

 

Jims USA Mighty Bite Flywheel Lock Tool

[FLDavetrain]

Just FYI, I would never reuse a 2009 and up oil pan if there were motor damage involved. There's no way to know that it's really clean and that there aren't any metal chips / slivers. Some guys have milled the casting rivets away, drilled and tapped for fasteners so it can be cleaned properly.

This is one that Mega Flo did. He can fix you up.
Mega Flo Touring oil Pan

That's how HD makes the SE pans, with removeable fasteners.
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Make sure to look at the pump when you get in there.

Thanks. I discovered after the fact about taking off top plate and redoing. SE oversized doesn't fit w SnS cases I think. So a new pan should've gone in, have one sitting here now and probably will replace it next before going in cam chest. I've dumped oil so many times already and never a sign of debris but I know that's not whole picture. A good look at the pump for sure might be required but it's hard to believe the pump oring is an issue. I'm certainly capable of a mistake but in the 20 ish times I've done a cam chest, never f'd up that oring. Those areas get extreme care every time. Now if there's some other reason like it needs another smaller oring behind the fat one to increase seal pressure I don't know, not aware if that's possible on these cases. It's all S&S down there.

[FLDavetrain]

So was curious. Here's pic under the case right in area of where scavenge pick up would be (I think), is there any chance one of these screws could block the pick up or interfere if it protruded too far up in the case?

[Ohio HD]

Not unless someone used some strange fastener. The plugs are only 0.500" thick. I'd be more concerned who ever drilled the case went too deep on the return or feed line. Either one could dump oil into the cam chest if they're drilled too deep and broke through. ONLY the vent line should be drilled all the way through the case. The feed and return only deep enough to meet the oil passages in the case.



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[FLDavetrain]

I questioned that based on a clip Luke over at Feuling did where the (m8) cases due to factory tolerances would sometimes have that plug area recessed too much and the fastener would disturb the pick up causing a sump issue, he just ground down the plug. Just thought I'd toss that Hail Mary.

[FLDavetrain]

Here's the drill case set up. Not Vulcan, my guy has his own copy but does them one size up. Could be 3/8 drill to the vulcan 5/16? Not positive on that tho. Would the larger passage potentially cause a problem?

[Ohio HD]

Vulcan drills them @ 0.375". This is mainly because that's the rubber hose ID that's used on earlier TC motors that use rubber lines. Also 0.375" is what size rubber lines S&S supplies with their oil line kit.

HD OEM drills about 0.525".

What I've been saying is "IF" some one drills the feed or return too deep, and breaks through the case to the cam chest, it would explain where all the oil is coming from. Can't check that until the cam chest comes apart. It also would have to have been a problem from day one is this were the case. Also since he uses some other method to locate the holes to be drilled, there is always the chance the return is off location. I'm not saying it is, but could be. I test the drill operation by blowing compressed air from the cam plate oil passages to the newly drilled holes. You should get lots of air coming through. That has to be done before the case is mounted to the transmission.

If a leak down doesn't spot any troubles. Then the motor needs to come apart to find the issue. Like I said, a stuck piston jet, a loose piston jet, oil pump o-ring, oil pump return damage, restricted oil drains in the heads, etc.


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[FLDavetrain]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

[FXDBI]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

[FLDavetrain]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

No. This was first and 198-200psi mark was the calculated target from onset. So all good there

[98fxstc]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

No. This was first and 198-200psi mark was the calculated target from onset. So all good there

Not wondering why front is 12 psi higher ?

[FLDavetrain]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

No. This was first and 198-200psi mark was the calculated target from onset. So all good there

Not wondering why front is 12 psi higher ?

Front was 209 actually so 11 psi I agree wasn't the plan and I didn't verify the chamber volume. Like I said the target was 198. Better than being under 

[kd]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

No. This was first and 198-200psi mark was the calculated target from onset. So all good there

Not wondering why front is 12 psi higher ?

Front was 209 actually so 11 psi I agree wasn't the plan and I didn't verify the chamber volume. Like I said the target was 198. Better than being under 

Which one did you test first and did you use a booster for the second one to ensure the same cranking speed.  That could account for a difference if not.

[FXDBI]

I asked because it would be your baseline. Thats what I do anyhow only was to really know if you hit your target and its even on both cylinders. I also check with each oil change to see if its changed. A leak down test would be the prudent thing to do instead of just assuming all is well.  Bob

[FLDavetrain]

I asked because it would be your baseline. Thats what I do anyhow only was to really know if you hit your target and its even on both cylinders. I also check with each oil change to see if its changed. A leak down test would be the prudent thing to do instead of just assuming all is well.  Bob

Nice protocol. And leak down coming soon as that fancy tool arrives

[FLDavetrain]

I read you. So right this was not an issue for roughly 1200 miles so case damage probably not. I'll leak down next, my compression was good (not expecting 12 psi difference). Then I will swap the pan and try suctioning on the feed/return. Can anything (structurally) move at bottom of these pans if shook tossed around enough? I know there not like other models w removable baffle.
And back to an earlier post, the over glued oem stamped breathers I removed had glue caked at edges when removed recently. Not detectable at install, once heated for many miles this stuff pushed its way out the edges. Could some have gotten in oil return? Possibly

Did you do a compression test when the engine was fresh? If so has it changed?  Bob

No. This was first and 198-200psi mark was the calculated target from onset. So all good there

Not wondering why front is 12 psi higher ?

Front was 209 actually so 11 psi I agree wasn't the plan and I didn't verify the chamber volume. Like I said the target was 198. Better than being under 

Which one did you test first and did you use a booster for the second one to ensure the same cranking speed.  That could account for a difference if not.

Rear went first. Kept trickle charger on whole time, that's as complex as I do it.

[FLDavetrain]

Update. That pretty blue jims crank sensor plug not sitting flush no matter what I do. Too much cursing, ready to burry it and move on

[Ohio HD]

You have to turn the flywheel slightly forward or rearward to allow the lock tool to seat in between the crankshaft teeth.


Jim's 753 Flywheel Lock Tool

[FLDavetrain]

Should've mentioned, I've tried all that. Called jims, correct part #. Only Q is if the R&R wheels cut diff?

[FLDavetrain]

So my comments next aren't necessary aimed at any shop/builder involved w this issue/set up on the T2 cases.
I've simply had it. Cam chest looked great, zero debris and i continued to redo the entire chest as if installing for first time. Pump looked perfect. Added a drain plug oring to spigot in attempt to get tighter seal. No blockages to be found. Test ride, and sumping/puking same ol crap.
The 2 constants on this and the previous build are the cases, the drilling for stock oiling, and the flywheels. Both sumped and despite taking every attempt to cool the motor (fans, cooler) and no long haul rides (mostly 10-20 mile range) occasionally slightly more, this build combo has been a colossal disappointment. Chasing a ghost and rebuilding areas is not the answer I believe. This alteration of the cases is a crap shoot. Beware. Other problems in other companies experiences on this very topic have been a problem I've recently learned. Should've used OEM cases, or SnS with external oiling kit. Feel free to ask any detail I can answer or your experience on this case modification. Note: this build did ok for first 1000 or so and was mildly sumping imo. It was never as stout feeling as my other 131 despite having even "better" parts.

[Don D]

Question answered with question, have you checked the engine for sumping?

[FLDavetrain]

Question answered with question, have you checked the engine for sumping?

2 dozens times at least. At best 13 oz. Last few hundred miles it's been 24 ish

[Ohio HD]

So you have no conclusive cause for the problem. By conclusive, meaning it can be fixed. I know a few guys on this site that have used the T2 cases with OEM TC oiling, and have not experienced the same issues that you have.

There's an answer there somewhere. 

If its me, and I'm takin the top end off. The oiler jets are being tested next. They need to start pumping at about 10 PSI, then by 20 PSI be flowing full force. Also if they don't shut off, the sump fills.

I also would want to confirm that the oil lines drill into the case are working as they should. Motor would need to come out. 


If you want to have the oilers tested, I can do that for you. Just send them, I'll test them and send them back. No charges, just helping out. A piston oiler cold have been working, then got dirt or a metal spec into one or both, then they may stay open.

[FLDavetrain]

So you have no conclusive cause for the problem. By conclusive, meaning it can be fixed. I know a few guys on this site that have used the T2 cases with OEM TC oiling, and have not experienced the same issues that you have.

There's an answer there somewhere. 

If its me, and I'm takin the top end off. The oiler jets are being tested next. They need to start pumping at about 10 PSI, then by 20 PSI be flowing full force. Also if they don't shut off, the sump fills.

I also would want to confirm that the oil lines drill into the case are working as they should. Motor would need to come out. 


If you want to have the oilers tested, I can do that for you. Just send them, I'll test them and send them back. No charges, just helping out. A piston oiler cold have been working, then got dirt or a metal spec into one or both, then they may stay open.

Agree, there must be a reason. And thanks for the offer which I possibly will accept. Help me understand, if the test ride is a 10 mile loop with no hot idle, the psi never gets below 27-30 so jets always open. That's normal operation. How does your debris explanation change that scenario if you don't mind l. If clogged up and not flowing, the pistons would've crapped out long time ago

[Ohio HD]

So you have no conclusive cause for the problem. By conclusive, meaning it can be fixed. I know a few guys on this site that have used the T2 cases with OEM TC oiling, and have not experienced the same issues that you have.

There's an answer there somewhere. 

If its me, and I'm takin the top end off. The oiler jets are being tested next. They need to start pumping at about 10 PSI, then by 20 PSI be flowing full force. Also if they don't shut off, the sump fills.

I also would want to confirm that the oil lines drill into the case are working as they should. Motor would need to come out. 


If you want to have the oilers tested, I can do that for you. Just send them, I'll test them and send them back. No charges, just helping out. A piston oiler cold have been working, then got dirt or a metal spec into one or both, then they may stay open.

Agree, there must be a reason. And thanks for the offer which I possibly will accept. Help me understand, if the test ride is a 10 mile loop with no hot idle, the psi never gets below 27-30 so jets always open. That's normal operation. How does your debris explanation change that scenario if you don't mind l. If clogged up and not flowing, the pistons would've crapped out long time ago

The valves can be stuck open by dirt or an aluminum / steel particle. If you're saying you don't see less than 27 lbs, even at idle. Well that's a problem there.

At lower ROM's the scavenge side of the pump probably can't keep up. Then no doubt the oilers are open and spraying at full force. They open to full spray around 20 PSI. As well you may be flooding the heads with too much oil from pressure at lower rpm.

[FLDavetrain]

So you have no conclusive cause for the problem. By conclusive, meaning it can be fixed. I know a few guys on this site that have used the T2 cases with OEM TC oiling, and have not experienced the same issues that you have.

There's an answer there somewhere. 

If its me, and I'm takin the top end off. The oiler jets are being tested next. They need to start pumping at about 10 PSI, then by 20 PSI be flowing full force. Also if they don't shut off, the sump fills.

I also would want to confirm that the oil lines drill into the case are working as they should. Motor would need to come out. 


If you want to have the oilers tested, I can do that for you. Just send them, I'll test them and send them back. No charges, just helping out. A piston oiler cold have been working, then got dirt or a metal spec into one or both, then they may stay open.

Agree, there must be a reason. And thanks for the offer which I possibly will accept. Help me understand, if the test ride is a 10 mile loop with no hot idle, the psi never gets below 27-30 so jets always open. That's normal operation. How does your debris explanation change that scenario if you don't mind l. If clogged up and not flowing, the pistons would've crapped out long time ago

If you're saying you don't see less than 27 lbs, even at idle

If you read my comment I said essentially..... "picture a long country road with no lights, stops etc, the psi will not drop below 20 in mine or any bike" that's my point, under those conditions it sumps and dumps

[FLDavetrain]

Just a thought, the flywheel shaft feeds the rod bearings, could there be over oiling there? Just curious if I need that checked when all this comes apart.

[Don D]

Maybe too much oil going to the top. Can be front several causes. Also drain back slow or restricted. Passages in heads should be .310

[FLDavetrain]

Maybe too much oil going to the top. Can be front several causes. Also drain back slow or restricted. Passages in heads should be .310

I'll add this; the "good" 1000 miles were in 55-70 deg weather (FL winter). Things took a turn when 80+ came and longer than 20 mile ride taken. I tried easy stuff like 25 60 wt, then breather swap, now the cam chest redo w no luck.
Would it be worth eliminating the jagg system and put that back to stock?, stock dipstick? Any other attempt before tear down I would consider

[FLDavetrain]

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This drain back hole Don?

[FLDavetrain]

On the injectors staying full force theory.
My stock case 131" with same S&S cam chest has NEVER seen psi below 21, even at hot idle on the hottest days, over 4 yrs. That plate psi screw hasn't been touched. Never a single sump or a head breather drop.