Oil Pressure after top end rebuild

[billbuilds]

     I have a 99 carbed Road King that I just redid a 98" top end on with newly bored seasoned jugs and new pistons. The heads were cleaned up and given a valve job. The problem I'm having is that the oil pressure light won't go out after a fair amount of cranking w/o the plugs in. There's a new filter and three quarts of oil in the pan but no joy. I did not open up the cam chest and I'm quite certain that I got the rocker base gaskets installed correctly. If anybody has any ideas on what I might have slipped up on please let me know, I'm stumped. Bill 

[rigidthumper]

Spin the oil filter or the oil pressure sensor off and crank the starter- is oil coming out easily? If not, pump isn't receiving any fluid. Could be as simple as a pin hole in the feed line (causing an air lock).
If oil is readily coming out of the filter/pressure sensor hole, reinstall any removed items and fire it up- light should go out within a second or two.

[Wookie3011]

Just to clarify, I to had this issue. I was under the assumption that the oil light would go out before the engine started. I cranked for a while in 5-8 second bursts. I seen oil pressure on my guage that I installed. It had oil pressure but until I started it the light didn't go out. As soon as it fired up the light goes out. I have verified oil pressure and even removed the rocker covers to verify its reaching the top end. Don't know if this is the same setup for all harleys. Can anyone verify if the light should turn off before it starts vs after? I checked a few buddies bikes and there's is the same.

[Ohio HD]

Bill, I also run heat cycles with 10w30 or 10w40 oil. Oil throughout the motor faster, with less chance of air locking. After heat cycles I drain it and change the filter. Then put in 20w50 mineral based for the dyno, or if breaking it in on the road.

[Ohio HD]

The oil light will go out when cranking the motor, "if" oil gets to the pressure switch.

[billbuilds]

     I backed off the filter and the oil poured out at the filter mount gasket mating surface. I didn't want to make a further mess so I spun it back on. It would seem that the pump is getting oil to the filter or could that be a false assumption? I had already put Valvoline VR1 20w50 in there per Don's suggestion. I've only done one other Twin Cam top end rebuild and I could swear that the oil light went out after a bit of cranking.  y

[Fugawee]

I don't know if this is a good, or bad for You.  But in Your 1st post You mention that there are 3 quarts of oil in the pan.  Shouldn't there be 4 quarts?  Unless there is a reason You only put 3 in, or a typo.

[billbuilds]

     Fug, yes, I know it takes four quarts but just to start it and run a two or three minute heat cycle I figured three would be ok and then I'd check the level and add some. I took the filter right off and cranked it over and l does come out the filter port but went to start it and clatter clatter along with oil light. Just ran a few seconds but could hear it wasn't right. Now I am bumming severely. Should have had this all wrapped up by now I have to tear it all down again. I thought that I had my    half way together but apparently not.   

[billbuilds]

Spin the oil filter or the oil pressure sensor off and crank the starter- is oil coming out easily? If not, pump isn't receiving any fluid. Could be as simple as a pin hole in the feed line (causing an air lock).
If oil is readily coming out of the filter/pressure sensor hole, reinstall any removed items and fire it up- light should go out within a second or two.

     Those two lines are the original ones, probably should get some new ones and see if helps.   Thanks all for the replies. Bill

[Fugawee]

Fug, yes, I know it takes four quarts but just to start it and run a two or three minute heat cycle I figured three would be ok and then I'd check the level and add some. I took the filter right off and cranked it over and l does come out the filter port but went to start it and clatter clatter along with oil light. Just ran a few seconds but could hear it wasn't right. Now I am bumming severely. Should have had this all wrapped up by now I have to tear it all down again. I thought that I had my    half way together but apparently not.   

Sorry to hear that Your having an issue.  I thought that maybe, just maybe the 4rth quart may have done the trick for You.  I know that this is a PITA.  But if this might make You feel a little better...I have similar luck.  I replaced cam tensioners on an 03' Heritage and was all happy.  Then I fired it up and heard chitty-chitty-bang-bang.  I hadn't adjusted the intake push-rods correctly.
Hope that You find the issue.  I wish I could offer more.  Good Luck.

[billbuilds]

    I took the pipes off this morning so that I could get the cover off and examine those oil lines. Any pliability that they had is gone, they're hard as a rock. I seriously doubt that the dealer has a single one in stock, I'll get them elsewhere and shipped right to home since the wait would be about the same.
    Pretty sure that I got the pushrods right. I have the 570ES's and you have to be careful of the exhaust pushrod adjustment due to the compression release lobe.  Even if I didn't (and that is certainly possible) the oil pressure is the big issue.
     Thanks for the moral support, will keep you posted.   Bill

[rigidthumper]

When you get the new lines on, wrap your air gun nozzle with a rag (to give a bit of a seal), pull the dipstick, and shoot a little air pressure through the oil fill opening while cranking the starter- this is a redneck way of priming the pump

[billbuilds]

     Thanks for the tip, rigidthumper. I found a 10 year old thread in the archives yesterday where Ron Rabos suggests using a hand vacuum pump/bake bleed tool to make sure that oil is getting from the pan into the cam plate. I got a decent deal on one at AutoZone (not quite the caliber of the one Ron bought for himself but not bad) The nearby dealer only had one oil line so I took the longer and paid the longer dollar. Got the oil lines installed this afternoon and used the vacuum pump to verify that I do have oil coming thru that feed hole in the cam chest. Will put pump, plate and pushrods back in tomorrrow. Bill

[billbuilds]

     Went to put the pump back together and saw that it wasn't as decent as I'd thought - evidence of debris having chewed on a couple of return teeth. The Cyco tensioners are not in great shape either and I just could not see reinstalling as is. But things are kind of tight so I figured to get me thru the season they'll be ok. In the back of my mind I have the condition of the rocker arm pads which I probably should have replaced but I pressed on.
     Got the Smith Brothers quickie pushrods adjusted on the rear cylinder and after bleed down I was rotating the motor over and using a plastic drinking straw to find TDC on the front cylinder when I did something really, really stupid. I dropped the slightly shortened drinking straw down the plug hole. Yep, boned it up good! So I had to step away for a bit and then came to the realization that I needed to pull the front head. Now I still haven't smartened up to the point of dropping the coin for the quick disconnect for the gas tank so of course I have that joy to start off with. Here's me and my clone     
     I get the straw out and the head retorqued and start to "re" inspect the rocker arm pads then realize that I'm an idiot to be using them since three of the four pads have wear consistent with having bounced off the valve stem from over revving. I needed to get away from spring loaded tensioners.
     So I said to heck with putting a new roof on the garage this Spring, let's spend some money on a decent pump and a hydraulic hydraulic plate. Oh, and don't forget, you'll need the cam pressing tool and a shop press. Cha ching. Oh well, Harbor Freight just happened to be having a sidewalk sale and I got $50 off cost of the 20 ton H-frame. I'd been wanting a shop press for ages. Still need rocker arms though.
     My apology for just dropping off the page, was off licking my wounds. Now maybe I can have this thing up and running in another week or so.  Bill
     
           

[CndUltra88]

Nothing like regrouping for another chance to fix it.
Rob

[Hossamania]

Good call, screw the garage roof! That's why they make tarps

[kd]

I'd wait until the price of building material goes down too. 

[billbuilds]

     After putting in the blue team's pump and cam plate along with new oil lines, new rocker arms & shafts  I still have noise. I thought I was in good shape as the oil light went out after four or five whirls of the starter but once I started it    . The lifters are B's with about 14K on them. Pushrods are Smith Brothers easy install out four full turns from zero lash. This sound is kind of like piston slap to my untrained ear. I didn't have any problem with noise or clattering the first time I built this to 98". This build has turned into a nightmare. Haven't had a drink in over 30 months but that may change. Bill

[billbuilds]

     I'm going to start out by removing the pushrods and making sure that I got all of the lifters direction oriented correctly.  I have a nagging suspicion...

[Coyote]

Didn't think it matters which way you install them on a TC.

[Ohio HD]

Feuling says to locate the oil ports of the lifter towards the cylinders. Jim's USA says the exact opposite. Locate the oil ports of the lifters away from the cylinders. Since both companies would want the best access to oil volume and pressure, I've always concluded it doesn't matter.


Feuling Lifters


Jim's USA

[billbuilds]

     Thanks for the clarification. Guess I'm so exasperated that I'm starting to grasp at straws. It's not a lifter clatter noise anyhow, Sounds more like pistons/cylinders aren't getting enough oil. Looks like I'm going in again.
     

[Ohio HD]

The pistons and cylinders primarily get oil from the flywheels splashing it. The piston oilers are intended to squirt the underside of the piston to cool it, but I imagine that some of that oil is flunk to the cylinder walls. Before taking it apart, I'd put a manual gauge on the motor and see what the pressure really is.

[kd]

Feuling says to locate the oil ports of the lifter towards the cylinders. Jim's USA says the exact opposite. Locate the oil ports of the lifters away from the cylinders. Since both companies would want the best access to oil volume and pressure, I've always concluded it doesn't matter.


Feuling Lifters


Jim's USA

    Once the oil galleries are charged with oil after cranking, simple physics says the pressure is equal in all directions.  A fluid (and any air contamination) will follow the path of least resistance and therefore follow the oil holes into the lifter body and quickly charge the lifter with oil to make it functional.  Of course it will bleed out through the pushrods and if equipped, through the bleed hole to the rollers,  As this occurs the oil is constantly and consistently replaced by the oil pump into the oil galleries to the lifters and will keep them fully charged to feed new oil to the lifter bodies. Any initial air contamination will be expelled through the same route and a solid column of oil will form.  Again, simple physics. Like a garden hose feeding a lawn sprinkler. The cycle is continuous and common to all twin cam engines. There are probably millions of lifters installed not aligned with the cylinder side and functioning properly.

If you reduce the adjustment to 2 or 3 flats off the bottom for the thread pitch you have (effectively making them like solids and eliminating any chance one or more are collapsing), that should rule out the lifters if the noise persists.  In your opening post, you say the heads were treated to a "valve job".   Were the valves sunk at that time adding to the stem protrusion?  Is it possible you have rocker contact in the rocker boxes or cover?  That will sound more like a knock than a lifter tick.  A stethoscope may come in handy to pinpoint the actual location of the sound you are trying to describe.   This is best done before you disassemble or it will be a lost opportunity.  Can you post a sound clip video?

[FXDBI]

Any chance a pushrod rubbing the tube? Did u check the valve spring to lower rocker box ? Maybe you have a spring rubbing? Lots of places for noise to emulate from.   Bob

[billbuilds]

     There was some big time miscommunication between myself and the guy who did the machine work on this engine. The heads had already been ported and larger intakes installed prior to going from 88 to the initial 98" build. He charged me more to "clean up" those heads than the guy charged me to port them. At the very least he removed the carbon, did a valve job and installed new valves seals. I never received a receipt and when I inquired about one via email I got an answer like he was doing me a favor by letting him work on my stuff.  I would imagine that there's a bit more protrusion but how much I do not know. I did check the valve spring/keeper to lower box clearance and there's plenty.
     I had dumped three quarts of oil into the pan before I decided to go with a new pump.
When I dumped it back out I noticed that it was much dirtier looking than I'd expect non-run oil to look.  Shouldn't there be ample oil in the sump once the oil light goes out from initial cranking after rebuild?. 
     I was really hesitant to restart it as I thought I might be doing damage. The sound was not a knock, it was a similar kind of clatter as I had after initial start up just a tad quieter. Is does not sound like rockers tapping, more like a metal on metal with little to no lube combined with a very slight jingling. 
     Probably should have waited for a reply from you guys but I removed the dash, fuel tank and pushrods last evening. Now I'm on the fence again as to whether I should keep tearing into it or put it back together and check the oil pressure with a gauge and make a sound recording at the same time.      
                                         Thanks for the replies, Bill

[ziggy24]

I'm going to start out by removing the pushrods and making sure that I got all of the lifters direction oriented correctly.  I have a nagging suspicion...

There is zero difference in lifter orientation. Not to mention different manufacturers can  put the feed hole in different locations. Old wives tale. Hydraulic principles dictate this.

[billbuilds]

I'm going to start out by removing the pushrods and making sure that I got all of the lifters direction oriented correctly.  I have a nagging suspicion...

There is zero difference in lifter orientation. Not to mention different manufacturers can  put the feed hole in different locations. Old wives tale. Hydraulic principles dictate this.

     Yes, a couple have made mention of this. Thanks

     I have the rear two pushrods back in. Will get the front two in after lunch. Still need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

[Ohio HD]

Still need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

Some of the early switches use a special socket. You van get them at auto parts stores. If you have room, sometimes a large open end wrench will get the switch off.

[60Gunner]

Whats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.
You did do rocker lockers right? Sorry if I missed it. Doesn't make sense not to.
Oil passages thoroughly cleaned? Including pushrods and rocker arms? Doesn't take much to restrict flow.

[billbuilds]

Whats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.

     The SB pushrods have 32 TPI and I adjusted them out four full turns out so I'd say about .128. Have had these B's since new along with the 570's. They were pretty quiet in the previous build.

[60Gunner]

Whats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.

     The SB pushrods have 32 TPI and I adjusted them out four full turns out so I'd say about .128. Have had these B's since new along with the 570's. They were pretty quiet in the previous build.

Made the same mistake assuming
.125 would be good cuz it was before. Take them 3 more flats. Even 4 would be good.
Look close for signs of those pushrods rubbing the tubes too tho. Might be able to feel it. Someone had this issue with smith bros. pushrods just recently. Stout is nice til they rub cuz they're too fat.
Check 'em all. Only takes one.

Who's lifters?

 

[billbuilds]

Still need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

Some of the early switches use a special socket. You van get them at auto parts stores. If you have room, sometimes a large open end wrench will get the switch off.

    Thanks Brian. No room for a wrench with the pipe on, I'll have to pick up a specialty socket.

[60Gunner]

Goes without saying any clearance issues have been checked? Possible you're hearing the valves smackin' shut or intake reversion thru the AC?
Just throwing it out there not knowing your whole build or who did it.

[billbuilds]

Goes without saying any clearance issues have been checked? Possible you're hearing the valves smackin' shut or intake reversion thru the AC?
Just throwing it out there not knowing your whole build or who did it.

     I readjusted the pushrods out another four turns late yesterday afternoon and reinstalled the fuel tank. I did have AV&V .600 lift springs installed as I thought I might try a higher lift cam at some point. Would the higher spring pressure over stock beehives (they're worked 06 heads) cause some additional valve train noise? I did not notice any tell-tale rub marks on the pushrods.

     I need to throw the battery back in and the dash on then head down to the strip to pick up an oil pressure sensor socket. I have a gauge that I'm hoping will fit. Will, try to get a sound recording.
                                                                 Thanks, Bill

[billbuilds]

     I struck out trying to find an oil pressure sensor socket. Everybody has the combo 1"/1-1/16" sockets. They're too  big and hit the oil filter boss. I believe that I need the HD 34816 wrench which is v-twin number 16-0990. None available on Amazon and no date in site. Bummer.

[billbuilds]

      Well I was not correct with the tool needed too remove that oil pressure indicator light sensor (26561-99). Lange Tools has a ratcheting wrench #9723 that looks like it'll do the job without removing the pipe(s) but it's ouch expensive. I held off trying to remove that sensor because I didn't want to risk breaking it but I got tired of being stuck so I took the one crappy crescent wrench that I have that will fit and carefully wound it off.
     I had a barbed hose fitting that threaded into the case hole where the switch went and I had an old Shovel oil pressure gauge that I connected to the hose barb via a short piece of FI grade neoprene flex hose. I got zero reading with the initial two or three cranks of the engine. I took the gauge off and there was zippo oil dribbling out the end of the hose. Cranked the engine over again and during the third crank out pours the oil. I hooked the gauge back up and hit the starter. The gauge move pretty quickly up to 30psi. I'd like to leave the gauge on and fire the bike up but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get the sensor back in adequately with the pipe in the way.   Bill

     Edit: I let the bike sit for about forty-five minutes with the gauge still attached and when I cranked it over I got no reading. Cranked a second time and still no reading. Took the gauge off and during the second crank period the oil poured out. Put the gauge right back , spun the engine over and the gauge went right up to 30psi.  Was certain that I got the pump snout and plate o rings installed correctly but it seems I have no other choice than to double check them.

[jsachs1]

Check for wet sumping. That will tell you if the O-ring is on the oil pump properly. Run the engine for a few minutes. Turn it off, and let it sit for several minutes. Remove the 1/4" plug under the cam chest, and see how much oil comes out.
John

[billbuilds]

Check for wet sumping. That will tell you if the O-ring is on the oil pump properly. Run the engine for a few minutes. Turn it off, and let it sit for several minutes. Remove the 1/4" plug under the cam chest, and see how much oil comes out.
John

    I'm sorry but I removed the cam cover before I had a chance to read your reply. I'm guessing that a little over 3 ounces of oil ran out. Prior to that: The bike sat for s bit while I put the pipe back on so before starting it I tried cranking the engine over with plugs out for a couple of 8 second whirls to see if the gauge would show pressure. Nothing.  I didn't want to try to start the bike with no oil pressure.
    I wore the battery down pretty hard, need to let it recharge. Hate to have to yank the pump out to check the snout and plate o rings but other than the check valve what is there? 

[ziggy24]

To check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.

[billbuilds]

     Before tearing back into the plate and pump I figured I should go back to where I began which was with the replacement of the oil lines. I researched the archives here and found a thread (which I can't seem to now) that dealt with how loose one members oil line hose fittings were in both the engine case and transmission housing. I had missed this the first time thru and have discovered that my feed fittings were a bit on the loose side - nothing leaking but plenty more room to tighten them up. The one on the left came out of the transmission housing. Right one is the engine case one which I already cleaned the old pipe thread sealant off of but it was not much deeper. Return fitting in transmission case also appears to be a bit shallow. The only one that looks well sunk is the return fitting on the engine case.
    All that cranking only to get an intermittent oil pressure reading. Hoping that reinstalling these deeper/snugger is part of the solution.  Bill
     

[rigidthumper]

You didn't happen to replace the oil pan gasket, did you?

[billbuilds]

    Yes, I did.

[rigidthumper]

Which gasket did you use? Should have been the 26077-99A.  The EVO 5 speed gasket (26077-93) will fit, but doesn't have the seal for the intake side of the pan, and you will have a hard time with air cavitation.

[billbuilds]

     Yes, I used the 26077-99A. I wanted to used the HD version so I got mine at the dealer. Thanks

[jsachs1]

To check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.

Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE.

[billbuilds]

To check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.

Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE.

     How much oil is normal & how much would indicate sumping?

[billbuilds]

     Reinstalling the three hose barbs for the oil lines deeper into the cases has payed off. I let the pipe thread sealant cure overnight then thought about tearing into the pump to double check my work. I did take the cam cover off and roll the engine over and plenty of oil poured out the bottom of the cam chest. Took the gauge off the end of my short hose and rolled it over again and out poured the oil so I put it back on.  It sure looked like the pump was working so I buttoned up the cam cover and installed the pipes sans the heat shields and fired it up. Let it run about thirty seconds. Sounds pretty good. Will install  the heat shields now and complete the heat cycles. The gauge reads about 33# at idle. Hallelujah

[jsachs1]

To check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.

Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE.

     How much oil is normal & how much would indicate sumping?

Average I find is usually 3 ounces. If 6 or more, I start looking for a problem on most low mileage bikes. Another FYI, if the plug has never been removed before, you may need to heat, coupled with engine heat to remove it. Don't force it. I repaired a boss that a customer broke. An expensive repair.
John

[Wookie3011]

Glad you figured it all out.