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Oil Pressure after top end rebuild

Started by billbuilds, May 22, 2022, 09:36:04 AM

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billbuilds

June 30, 2022, 04:13:41 AM #25 Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 04:59:42 AM by billbuilds
     There was some big time miscommunication between myself and the guy who did the machine work on this engine. The heads had already been ported and larger intakes installed prior to going from 88 to the initial 98" build. He charged me more to "clean up" those heads than the guy charged me to port them. At the very least he removed the carbon, did a valve job and installed new valves seals. I never received a receipt and when I inquired about one via email I got an answer like he was doing me a favor by letting him work on my stuff.  I would imagine that there's a bit more protrusion but how much I do not know. I did check the valve spring/keeper to lower box clearance and there's plenty.
     I had dumped three quarts of oil into the pan before I decided to go with a new pump.
When I dumped it back out I noticed that it was much dirtier looking than I'd expect non-run oil to look.  Shouldn't there be ample oil in the sump once the oil light goes out from initial cranking after rebuild?. 
     I was really hesitant to restart it as I thought I might be doing damage. The sound was not a knock, it was a similar kind of clatter as I had after initial start up just a tad quieter. Is does not sound like rockers tapping, more like a metal on metal with little to no lube combined with a very slight jingling. 
     Probably should have waited for a reply from you guys but I removed the dash, fuel tank and pushrods last evening. Now I'm on the fence again as to whether I should keep tearing into it or put it back together and check the oil pressure with a gauge and make a sound recording at the same time.   :scoot:   
                                         Thanks for the replies, Bill

ziggy24

Quote from: billbuilds on June 29, 2022, 02:01:05 PMI'm going to start out by removing the pushrods and making sure that I got all of the lifters direction oriented correctly.  I have a nagging suspicion...

There is zero difference in lifter orientation. Not to mention different manufacturers can  put the feed hole in different locations. Old wives tale. Hydraulic principles dictate this.

billbuilds

Quote from: ziggy24 on June 30, 2022, 06:52:25 AM
Quote from: billbuilds on June 29, 2022, 02:01:05 PMI'm going to start out by removing the pushrods and making sure that I got all of the lifters direction oriented correctly.  I have a nagging suspicion...

There is zero difference in lifter orientation. Not to mention different manufacturers can  put the feed hole in different locations. Old wives tale. Hydraulic principles dictate this.

     Yes, a couple have made mention of this. Thanks

     I have the rear two pushrods back in. Will get the front two in after lunch. Still need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

Ohio HD

Quote from: billbuilds on June 30, 2022, 09:45:47 AMStill need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

Some of the early switches use a special socket. You van get them at auto parts stores. If you have room, sometimes a large open end wrench will get the switch off.



60Gunner

June 30, 2022, 11:54:26 AM #29 Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 12:08:16 PM by 60Gunner
Whats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.
You did do rocker lockers right? Sorry if I missed it. Doesn't make sense not to.
Oil passages thoroughly cleaned? Including pushrods and rocker arms? Doesn't take much to restrict flow.

billbuilds

Quote from: 60Gunner on June 30, 2022, 11:54:26 AMWhats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.


     The SB pushrods have 32 TPI and I adjusted them out four full turns out so I'd say about .128. Have had these B's since new along with the 570's. They were pretty quiet in the previous build.

60Gunner

June 30, 2022, 12:17:33 PM #31 Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 01:05:16 PM by 60Gunner
Quote from: billbuilds on June 30, 2022, 12:04:17 PM
Quote from: 60Gunner on June 30, 2022, 11:54:26 AMWhats the lifter preload at? Sometimes takes .140 to quiet them. Another thing to look for is the pushrods hitting the side of the tubes.
A stiffer spring, larger oil reservoir, and slow bleed down sets the Johnson Hylift 2313SE above all the premium high $$$ lifters.


     The SB pushrods have 32 TPI and I adjusted them out four full turns out so I'd say about .128. Have had these B's since new along with the 570's. They were pretty quiet in the previous build.
Made the same mistake assuming
.125 would be good cuz it was before. Take them 3 more flats. Even 4 would be good.
Look close for signs of those pushrods rubbing the tubes too tho. Might be able to feel it. Someone had this issue with smith bros. pushrods just recently. Stout is nice til they rub cuz they're too fat. :wink:
Check 'em all. Only takes one.

Who's lifters?

 


billbuilds

Quote from: Ohio HD on June 30, 2022, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: billbuilds on June 30, 2022, 09:45:47 AMStill need to look into what it takes to remove the oil pressure switch. If a special tool is required that would be an issue,   

Some of the early switches use a special socket. You van get them at auto parts stores. If you have room, sometimes a large open end wrench will get the switch off.




    Thanks Brian. No room for a wrench with the pipe on, I'll have to pick up a specialty socket.

60Gunner

Goes without saying any clearance issues have been checked? Possible you're hearing the valves smackin' shut or intake reversion thru the AC?
Just throwing it out there not knowing your whole build or who did it.

billbuilds

Quote from: 60Gunner on June 30, 2022, 01:20:22 PMGoes without saying any clearance issues have been checked? Possible you're hearing the valves smackin' shut or intake reversion thru the AC?
Just throwing it out there not knowing your whole build or who did it.


     I readjusted the pushrods out another four turns late yesterday afternoon and reinstalled the fuel tank. I did have AV&V .600 lift springs installed as I thought I might try a higher lift cam at some point. Would the higher spring pressure over stock beehives (they're worked 06 heads) cause some additional valve train noise? I did not notice any tell-tale rub marks on the pushrods.

     I need to throw the battery back in and the dash on then head down to the strip to pick up an oil pressure sensor socket. I have a gauge that I'm hoping will fit. Will, try to get a sound recording.
                                                                 Thanks, Bill

billbuilds

     I struck out trying to find an oil pressure sensor socket. Everybody has the combo 1"/1-1/16" sockets. They're too  big and hit the oil filter boss. I believe that I need the HD 34816 wrench which is v-twin number 16-0990. None available on Amazon and no date in site. Bummer.

billbuilds

July 06, 2022, 07:33:16 AM #36 Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 08:49:50 AM by billbuilds
      Well I was not correct with the tool needed too remove that oil pressure indicator light sensor (26561-99). Lange Tools has a ratcheting wrench #9723 that looks like it'll do the job without removing the pipe(s) but it's ouch expensive. I held off trying to remove that sensor because I didn't want to risk breaking it but I got tired of being stuck so I took the one crappy crescent wrench that I have that will fit and carefully wound it off.
     I had a barbed hose fitting that threaded into the case hole where the switch went and I had an old Shovel oil pressure gauge that I connected to the hose barb via a short piece of FI grade neoprene flex hose. I got zero reading with the initial two or three cranks of the engine. I took the gauge off and there was zippo oil dribbling out the end of the hose. Cranked the engine over again and during the third crank out pours the oil. I hooked the gauge back up and hit the starter. The gauge move pretty quickly up to 30psi. I'd like to leave the gauge on and fire the bike up but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get the sensor back in adequately with the pipe in the way.   Bill

     Edit: I let the bike sit for about forty-five minutes with the gauge still attached and when I cranked it over I got no reading. Cranked a second time and still no reading. Took the gauge off and during the second crank period the oil poured out. Put the gauge right back , spun the engine over and the gauge went right up to 30psi.  Was certain that I got the pump snout and plate o rings installed correctly but it seems I have no other choice than to double check them.

jsachs1

Check for wet sumping. That will tell you if the O-ring is on the oil pump properly. Run the engine for a few minutes. Turn it off, and let it sit for several minutes. Remove the 1/4" plug under the cam chest, and see how much oil comes out.
John

billbuilds

Quote from: jsachs1 on July 06, 2022, 02:06:10 PMCheck for wet sumping. That will tell you if the O-ring is on the oil pump properly. Run the engine for a few minutes. Turn it off, and let it sit for several minutes. Remove the 1/4" plug under the cam chest, and see how much oil comes out.
John

    I'm sorry but I removed the cam cover before I had a chance to read your reply. I'm guessing that a little over 3 ounces of oil ran out. Prior to that: The bike sat for s bit while I put the pipe back on so before starting it I tried cranking the engine over with plugs out for a couple of 8 second whirls to see if the gauge would show pressure. Nothing.  :banghead: I didn't want to try to start the bike with no oil pressure.
    I wore the battery down pretty hard, need to let it recharge. Hate to have to yank the pump out to check the snout and plate o rings but other than the check valve what is there? 

ziggy24

To check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.

billbuilds

     Before tearing back into the plate and pump I figured I should go back to where I began which was with the replacement of the oil lines. I researched the archives here and found a thread (which I can't seem to now) that dealt with how loose one members oil line hose fittings were in both the engine case and transmission housing. I had missed this the first time thru and have discovered that my feed fittings were a bit on the loose side - nothing leaking but plenty more room to tighten them up. The one on the left came out of the transmission housing. Right one is the engine case one which I already cleaned the old pipe thread sealant off of but it was not much deeper. Return fitting in transmission case also appears to be a bit shallow. The only one that looks well sunk is the return fitting on the engine case.
    All that cranking only to get an intermittent oil pressure reading. Hoping that reinstalling these deeper/snugger is part of the solution.  Bill
     

rigidthumper

You didn't happen to replace the oil pan gasket, did you?
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

billbuilds


rigidthumper

Which gasket did you use? Should have been the 26077-99A.  The EVO 5 speed gasket (26077-93) will fit, but doesn't have the seal for the intake side of the pan, and you will have a hard time with air cavitation.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

billbuilds

     Yes, I used the 26077-99A. I wanted to used the HD version so I got mine at the dealer. Thanks

jsachs1

Quote from: ziggy24 on July 07, 2022, 07:38:28 AMTo check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.
Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE. :idea:

billbuilds

Quote from: jsachs1 on July 07, 2022, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: ziggy24 on July 07, 2022, 07:38:28 AMTo check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.
Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE. :idea:

     How much oil is normal & how much would indicate sumping?

billbuilds

     Reinstalling the three hose barbs for the oil lines deeper into the cases has payed off. I let the pipe thread sealant cure overnight then thought about tearing into the pump to double check my work. I did take the cam cover off and roll the engine over and plenty of oil poured out the bottom of the cam chest. Took the gauge off the end of my short hose and rolled it over again and out poured the oil so I put it back on.  It sure looked like the pump was working so I buttoned up the cam cover and installed the pipes sans the heat shields and fired it up. Let it run about thirty seconds. Sounds pretty good. Will install  the heat shields now and complete the heat cycles. The gauge reads about 33# at idle. Hallelujah

jsachs1

Quote from: billbuilds on July 07, 2022, 06:02:27 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on July 07, 2022, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: ziggy24 on July 07, 2022, 07:38:28 AMTo check for sumping, you would pull the plug out of the crankcase, not the cam case.
Read my post. " Remove the 1/4 " plug UNDER the cam CHEST. UNDER the cam chest IS the CASE. :idea:

     How much oil is normal & how much would indicate sumping?
Average I find is usually 3 ounces. If 6 or more, I start looking for a problem on most low mileage bikes. Another FYI, if the plug has never been removed before, you may need to heat, coupled with engine heat to remove it. Don't force it. I repaired a boss that a customer broke. An expensive repair.
John

Wookie3011