62MM TB alignment

[Wookie3011]

My build 124" 4.625×4.125. S&S cylinders. Worked heads but nothing taken off of the base. Cylinders where zero decked. I initially installed a SE 58MM TB. I had a front Cylinder intake leak. R&R process and this is what it looks like. My process is per service manual. Put left bolts in, slide TB into bolts via sloted flanges. Installed right bolts finger tight. Then installed breather bolts or front of AC loosely. Then tightened left flange bolts to torque of 130 Inlbs and tighten right to same. Breather bolts are specifically the rear Cylinder is further back and also the throttle body. Is there something I Can do to even this out? I don't want another intake leak. Enclosed is pictures. Now I feel like when I torque the breather bolts it's going to cause more misalignment.

[Wookie3011]

Pictures with the TB mounted via head breathers and no flanges.

[Ohio HD]

I look through the intake at the head to manifold fit. I push the manifold to one head, then see what gap I have total.

I give that info to Jimmy at HPI. Also I measure the width of the manifold (off the motor) at the narrowest position across the width of the ports with calipers and give him that as well. You can see where HPI marks the intake as to which one you have. This is the stock width, marked ~ 1 ~ . What he then sent me was a number ~ 3 ~ .

The cylinders on that 124" are the 5.004", and the heads are milled to 93cc. These are MVA heads, so their thickness is 3.730" when I measured them new. Larry machined them to 3.700 tall to get the 93cc.

Might take Jimmy a few weeks to get one out this time of the year if he has to make one.




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[kd]

I would mount the manifold to the heads as perfect as possible first and snug down.  Then use S&S rubber coated breather shim washers to each side and fill any gap on the remaking opening with additional shims.  They work well and there will be no stress on the head / manifold placements.  I am not somewhere I can direct you to the S&S part number but they are easy to find.

[Ohio HD]

You can't fix the width by shimming the manifold. Mine was perfectly centered between the heads, and then at WOT I sucked an intake seal in. If there's too much gap, then the distance needs to be closed up. Both HPI and S&S sell wider intakes for these situations. Luckily I wasn't that far from home and limped it back on one cylinder.

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[kd]

I may have misinterpreted the opening post.  I thought the problem was the breather backing plate pulling the manifold out of position when it was mounted and torqued.  The shims I mentioned are used between the head and breather base.

[Ohio HD]

I may have misinterpreted. I was going under the assumption as with the last TB the intake was too narrow of a fit.

[Wookie3011]

So the intake is to narrow. It appears as ifthe rear cylinder is farther away. What I get is the front cylinder looks fairly normal but the rear cylinder is further away. So when I snug up the intake to the heads I get alot of intake on rear cylinder flange sticking out. The heads where never milled but only ported and valves put in with different angles. So I would need to get a intake that is a bit wider for the difference. It's interesting that the front cylinder had the intake leak though the rear cylinder had the most area protruding out of the back of the flange.

[Wookie3011]

Thanks I'll give HPI a Call.

[Wookie3011]

+32 is what I have coming. Over nighted it. Hopefuly it will be here Saturday at the latest. I described my setup. He said they don't need any measurements. Hopefully this is correct. It's amazing how perfect this TB lines up with the port. Makes it easy on a guy sometimes. Still debating on if I need to dump the Elite breather AKA whale Peter for the V2. I don't want anything holding me back.

[Ohio HD]

You should end up with the gap as shown on mine above. With the manifold to one side, I have about 0.030" gap and that's 0.015" each side when the manifold is centered.

I use 100% spray silicon. I spray the seals, shake them off as best I can. set them on a cone of any kind so that any additional silicon can dry away or drip away. I plastic soda bottle works ok if you have one or two.

When assembling the silicon will allow the manifold to move around as you tighten the intake clamps. When they're snug, and I have the manifold centered, I bolt the TB on, and begin aligning the TB and backing plate to the heads. Always watching the back side of the manifold to see that it stays relatival even. 

When the motor is run, the heat will dry the silicon from the seal.

[kd]

You should end up with the gap as shown on mine above. With the manifold to one side, I have about 0.030" gap and that's 0.015" each side when the manifold is centered.

I use 100% spray silicon. I spray the seals, shake them off as best I can. set them on a cone of any kind so that any additional silicon can dry away or drip away. I plastic soda bottle works ok if you have one or two.

When assembling the silicon will allow the manifold to move around as you tighten the intake clamps. When they're snug, and I have the manifold centered, I bolt the TB on, and begin aligning the TB and backing plate to the heads. Always watching the back side of the manifold to see that it stays relatival even. 

When the motor is run, the heat will dry the silicon from the seal.

..... and the next step is where the rubber coated shims I described really work well.  With the TB snugged to the manifold and the backing plate installed if there is any gap between the backing plate and the head breather port, use these shims to take up the space.  Pulling the backing plate in with the mounting hardware will shift the manifold at the mount to the head. 

[FLDavetrain]

You should end up with the gap as shown on mine above. With the manifold to one side, I have about 0.030" gap and that's 0.015" each side when the manifold is centered.

I use 100% spray silicon. I spray the seals, shake them off as best I can. set them on a cone of any kind so that any additional silicon can dry away or drip away. I plastic soda bottle works ok if you have one or two.

When assembling the silicon will allow the manifold to move around as you tighten the intake clamps. When they're snug, and I have the manifold centered, I bolt the TB on, and begin aligning the TB and backing plate to the heads. Always watching the back side of the manifold to see that it stays relatival even. 

When the motor is run, the heat will dry the silicon from the seal.

..... and the next step is where the rubber coated shims I described really work well.  With the TB snugged to the manifold and the backing plate installed if there is any gap between the backing plate and the head breather port, use these shims to take up the space.  Pulling the backing plate in with the mounting hardware will shift the manifold at the mount to the head. 

I've done this exactly w the HPI 62mm and V2 back plate. 2 composite slight crush washers to fill the gap. Never an issue 7yrs later. Oil on manifold seals and 1/2 turn cross pattern at a time on the bolts always worked for me. Never an intake leak on multiple big inch builds.

[Wookie3011]

Sounds good! Always waiting should be here tomorrow. I litterally have enough extra parts to do another build. Funny how that works. I'll follow these instructions and appreciate the help. Any thoughts on the Air Breather? Is there any gains would you think going from the current elite breather to the V2?

[Wookie3011]

Looks like you Talked me into it Ohio HD! I just flipped for the HPI V2.  I work nights as Maintenance Specialist in a manufacturing machine shop. Overtime for the weekend was voluntary. Double time all 3 days. Not alot of machine operators volunteered =free time + Your picture of the V2 Cyclone×The awesomeness of your photo= impulse buy? But I do need more power..... so it's your fault. 

[FLDavetrain]

Here's another V2 cover, can't go wrong. Nice velocity stack too. Filter E-3300 if you need more from K&N. You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

Looks like you Talked me into it Ohio HD! I just flipped for the HPI V2.  I work nights as Maintenance Specialist in a manufacturing machine shop. Overtime for the weekend was voluntary. Double time all 3 days. Not alot of machine operators volunteered =free time + Your picture of the V2 Cyclone×The awesomeness of your photo= impulse buy? But I do need more power..... so it's your fault. 

A good air breather is a must. The quality is good, and they've tested it to north of 400 cfm flow.

I've also learned a solid and sturdy backing plate will go far in keeping the TB where it should be.

[Wookie3011]

Well Darnit, got her all back together and wouldn't you know... still a darn intake leak front cylinder. Verified it with propane even though the data was a dead give away. Frustrating, guess I could wait around and find out how sturdy that V2 backing plate is. Everything looked good when I put it on. Used silicone, started with the manifold lined it up, bolted it up evenly. I did notice with the elite breather it has recessed seats for the breather bolts. I think this is pulling it towards the rear when the bolt gets on that ledge. I'm going to try a few washer to Raise the seating surface of the breather bolts. The only part I hate about doing it again is the dang Gas tank. It's just impossible to not spill gas all over the place. I need to find a way to do a quick disconnect and shut offs for each side. I thought about propping up the gas tank but I don't want it to get damaged. One less thing to worry about.

[kd]

Well Darnit, got her all back together and wouldn't you know... still a darn intake leak front cylinder. Verified it with propane even though the data was a dead give away. Frustrating, guess I could wait around and find out how sturdy that V2 backing plate is. Everything looked good when I put it on. Used silicone, started with the manifold lined it up, bolted it up evenly. I did notice with the elite breather it has recessed seats for the breather bolts. I think this is pulling it towards the rear when the bolt gets on that ledge. I'm going to try a few washer to Raise the seating surface of the breather bolts. The only part I hate about doing it again is the dang Gas tank. It's just impossible to not spill gas all over the place. I need to find a way to do a quick disconnect and shut offs for each side. I thought about propping up the gas tank but I don't want it to get damaged. One less thing to worry about.

Did you check it out as described in reply #12 before pulling down the breather base to the heads with the bolts?  If you can slide anything like a matchbook cover or paper in there you WILL need shims.  If not the manifold will be pushed away from the breather base and compromise the manifold to head seal.
 IMO the coated S&S shims are the best because they are thin, stackable and seal well.  Sometimes the count on each side is different too.

Similarly, if there is a gap between the Throttle body and backing plate when the backing plate mounts contact the heads, torquing down those fasteners will pull the manifold toward the filter.  It may need another or thicker gasket to fill the gap.

All fasteners should be loosely installed and drawn down slowly to survey for any of these gaps
Before torquing any of them down.  (Finger tight equally.)

[Wookie3011]

I did and there was a very small gap that was uneven between the intake and TB. It was so small I didn't think it would matter. Apparently my thinking was flawed. Wasted time thinking it would be ok. Now I know. Is this the shims your talking about? S&S Cycle Breather Gear Shim Set 33-4249. I know thats got to be the issue. The manifold fits great and looked perfect until I started adding the TB and breather bolts. I could see how it would pull on it. Thanks for responding. Sorry for a late response back.

[Wookie3011]

Hopefully I ordered the right ones. S&S 17-0464. It made the most sense. Just reading past posts on here has really opened my eyes to what the typical problems are with installing TB's especially if you have a non typical setup. Shave a little here and take a little there add in .500 extra stroke and you have the perfect recipe for a intake leak if not done methodically. I can see where my setup has issues. The recessed area that the breather bolts seat into has a raised edge. When I tighten them down it hits this edge and pulls the entire setup to the front and back. I need those spacers. I need the V2 air cleaner. Hopefully HPI has them just waiting to ship out. That would be nice. I'm debating if I even want to try and get it up and going with the current breather. Patience thanks for all the help.

[Hossamania]

I used a couple of thick washers to make up the difference on my head breathers. I figured it's not really under pressure, and if it did leak I would figure out another solution. Vented to atmosphere, not back into the throttle body. So far no problems.

[kd]

Hopefully I ordered the right ones. S&S 17-0464. It made the most sense. Just reading past posts on here has really opened my eyes to what the typical problems are with installing TB's especially if you have a non typical setup. Shave a little here and take a little there add in .500 extra stroke and you have the perfect recipe for a intake leak if not done methodically. I can see where my setup has issues. The recessed area that the breather bolts seat into has a raised edge. When I tighten them down it hits this edge and pulls the entire setup to the front and back. I need those spacers. I need the V2 air cleaner. Hopefully HPI has them just waiting to ship out. That would be nice. I'm debating if I even want to try and get it up and going with the current breather. Patience thanks for all the help.

These are the washers for the mounting at the vent line.  They are rubber nitrate coated and stackable. If you have a greater gap they do have metal washers and you can use a nitrate shim each side. I have stacked several nitrate shims with success.  If you need to fill a gap between the back of the breather base and the throttle body face adding gasket material there will work fine. 

https://www.sscycle.com/products/vent-seal-washers-10-pack/

The trick is to fit / set it up with no space(s) before tightening the fasteners to the vent holes and the throttle body face.  I like to have the breather backplate loose enough to the head that it will accept at least one added shim.  That may require throttle body gaskets. Once you shim the base at the heads you know it will not move the manifold to head position when the fasteners are torqued down. Rotate around the fasteners slowly so it pulls down even.

https://www.sscycle.com/products/vent-seal-washers-10-pack/

One caution when checking for intake leaks with propane.  Shield the breather from drawing wild gas from the propane nozzle as it can make you think you found a leak but it is just pulling in the fumes that surround the area you are testing.

[Wookie3011]

Well darnit, I ordered the wrong ones. Just ordered the right ones through S&S. Not a very common Item I guess. I do have the washers to do some shimming Hoss. It would probably work to. I am just going to wait for HPI to get the V2 here so I'm not doing it twice. I'm calling them tomorrow to see if they won't let me throw more money at them to over night it.
I also read through your past post and your go around with this issue. I'm all out of matches though. Thanks KD for the part number and link. I appreciate it.   

[kd]

Well darnit, I ordered the wrong ones. Just ordered the right ones through S&S. Not a very common Item I guess. I do have the washers to do some shimming Hoss. It would probably work to. I am just going to wait for HPI to get the V2 here so I'm not doing it twice. I'm calling them tomorrow to see if they won't let me throw more money at them to over night it.
I also read through your past post and your go around with this issue. I'm all out of matches though. Thanks KD for the part number and link. I appreciate it.   

There is so much on in the S&S catalogue you pretty well have to dig through it all.  There really isn't a good description to inform you of their purpose when you see them as you page through.  It helps if you have some experience encountering the need to make adjustments for the proper fit on assembly.  The goal is get the manifold to the head right (only snug) and add the Throttle body or carb and breather base loosely so you can see where the gaps are and fill them.  Otherwise the fasteners pull or push on the manifold, change the relationship of the manifold to the intake ports and unseat the rubber seals. The tightening is progressive watching how the fit comes together.