Original oil pan started leaking

[RoadKingKohn]

Oil pan leaking on 2005 FLHRCI.

So here goes. Original oil pan started leaking after going through and replacing all of the transmission and primary seals and gaskets. All the bolts were tight. Bought a new Cometic gasket and put it in torquing to spec and pattern. Went for a ride of about 30 miles and lost 1/4 quart of engine oil. Bought a 2nd new Cometic gasket and put in using Permatex gasket sealer torqueing to spec and pattern in manual. Went for a ride of 60 miles. Lost 1/2 quart of engine oil. Talked with a shop that does not have the time to look at it. Told me to get a HD gasket and don't use sealant. Installed HD gasket torqued to 122 in-lbs and pattern without sealant. Filled with oil.  Started to leak after about an hour on the side stand.

Before putting it all back together in each install case and pan were checked for cracks and had a straight edge put on them.

On the 3rd install I put in a 2009 oil pan that was new.

Looking for suggestion on how to stop the leaking.  Any ideas?  This will be the 4th time in taking the pan off.

Thank you

[RoadKingKohn]

Well this is getting ridiculous. I have lost track now of what oil pan gasket this is but it is still leaking. Checked transmission case and oil pan for flatness using a flat steel ruler set on edge. Could not fit a .002" gage under anywhere. Used a Harley gasket with no Hylomar sealer as per last bulletin from HD. Torqued bolts per pattern in stages 96, 120, 132, 144 and then 156 in-lbs. Put on a new oil spout gasket and it is not showing any leakage.

The leaking appears to be on the brake pedal side. Oil blows all the way up from the back of the pan to right under the starter motor and only on the brake rotor side of the wheel.

In two 30 mile trips I lost 8oz of oil. Oil is golden color that is dripping out.

The transmission oil is not leaking it has not moved. Primary oil is red and is not leaking.

I also have a breather connected to the heads/intake manifold.

Oh and now my starter is starting to go. Going to go with an All Balls Racing starter.

Any ideas as to what I might be doing wrong?

[xlfan]

Maybe a stupid question, but could the leak come from one of the least accessible 3 screws in the rear of the pan?

[smoserx1]

I'm wondering if you have a hairline crack or "porosity fissure" (my just now made up term) in the transmission case just above the pan's mating surface allowing oil to escape.  I would say it is one of the seals you replaced but you have verified it is engine oil.  I have known one incident where someone had a leak actually through the metal of a case (so they claimed).

[kd]

At this point all I can offer you is an alternate trouble shooting method.  IMO you also need to confirm your breathers are functioning properly and not building crankcase pressure. 

Thoroughly clean "all" of the contaminated areas with brake clean and a toothbrush or similar method.  I say all because a hot oil leak on the left side could easily follow a casting profile to the right side before it drips or sprays about.  Blow it dry and repeat.  Use some baby talc powder and blow it gently all around the trans and not just the gasket surface edge.  Include an inspection and cleaning of the oil dipstick and plug for clean and leaks. You should not see any clumping or noticeable sticking of large amounts of powder (anywhere).  Top up the oil before reinstalling.

When you are satisfied there is no powder residue remaining, remove the breather lines to expose the vents. blow into and draw out to determine that the one way valve operation is working. Then start the engine and let it idle and recheck the vents.  Use a higher rpm also to confirm they are not being effected by rpm.  You should feel puffing (exhausting) air.  A smoking cigarette or piece of string held to the exit or hose will give you a visual confirmation. 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,118348.0.html

If OK retest the areas with talc powder to see if anything has developed.  You need to catch it early and not in the wind where it can spread. 

If still dry go through a few cycles of idle and include a little throttle to increase the rpm and recheck with talc. If it doesn't show up it may be that you need some road vibration and tilting each way from curves.  If you can't do that while stationary with the help of a friend take it only around the block and recheck.  I am sure you see the method is to use small amounts of run time to catch it at the start and to not ride fast enough to spread it in the wind.  Remember that hot oil is thinner so it is most likely when you will see traces.  I know it sounds like a lot of time but in comparison to changing gaskets (like throwing mud to see what sticks) you will be more likely to find it. 

IMO, the trick is to catch the first few drips and before the wind moves them. 

[Thermodyne]

Make sure the bolts are not bottoming out in the holes, cause the pan to be less than tight.

[RoadKingKohn]

Maybe a stupid question, but could the leak come from one of the least accessible 3 screws in the rear of the pan?

I am able to access all of the screws.

[RoadKingKohn]

I'm wondering if you have a hairline crack or "porosity fissure" (my just now made up term) in the transmission case just above the pan's mating surface allowing oil to escape.  I would say it is one of the seals you replaced but you have verified it is engine oil.  I have known one incident where someone had a leak actually through the metal of a case (so they claimed).

I was think the same thing on the last gasket checking every part of the case cleaning it with brake clean and putting a very bright light on it. The brake clean should have stayed in a crack or opening showing it off after the rest had evaporated.  Nothing shows up.

[RoadKingKohn]

At this point all I can offer you is an alternate trouble shooting method.  IMO you also need to confirm your breathers are functioning properly and not building crankcase pressure. 

Thoroughly clean "all" of the contaminated areas with brake clean and a toothbrush or similar method.  I say all because a hot oil leak on the left side could easily follow a casting profile to the right side before it drips or sprays about.  Blow it dry and repeat.  Use some baby talc powder and blow it gently all around the trans and not just the gasket surface edge.  Include an inspection and cleaning of the oil dipstick and plug for clean and leaks. You should not see any clumping or noticeable sticking of large amounts of powder (anywhere).  Top up the oil before reinstalling.

When you are satisfied there is no powder residue remaining, remove the breather lines to expose the vents. blow into and draw out to determine that the one way valve operation is working. Then start the engine and let it idle and recheck the vents.  Use a higher rpm also to confirm they are not being effected by rpm.  You should feel puffing (exhausting) air.  A smoking cigarette or piece of string held to the exit or hose will give you a visual confirmation. 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,118348.0.html

If OK retest the areas with talc powder to see if anything has developed.  You need to catch it early and not in the wind where it can spread. 

If still dry go through a few cycles of idle and include a little throttle to increase the rpm and recheck with talc. If it doesn't show up it may be that you need some road vibration and tilting each way from curves.  If you can't do that while stationary with the help of a friend take it only around the block and recheck.  I am sure you see the method is to use small amounts of run time to catch it at the start and to not ride fast enough to spread it in the wind.  Remember that hot oil is thinner so it is most likely when you will see traces.  I know it sounds like a lot of time but in comparison to changing gaskets (like throwing mud to see what sticks) you will be more likely to find it. 

IMO, the trick is to catch the first few drips and before the wind moves them. 

Thanks, I have run it on a stand at different RPMs letting it get to about 180D oil temp.  It does not show a leak.  The leak shows up after a 30 mile drive with speeds from 55 to 70 mph.  I did have a run before the last highway run of 35 to 45 mph and it did not leak.

I have a new head/manifold breather that I put on before the last gasket.  I am guessing that is why I did not get any oil in the 35 to 45 mph run that was 4 miles each way.

I am in the process of planning to build a breather that goes from the engine to the oil spout.

Right now I am trying to find out what type of a compression nut 63007-02 is.  I need to find one to replace the one that I had from the Chrome Oil Vent Line kit 33111-02.  The rubber seal on the inside of the old nut disintegrated.

[SmokyOwl]

I'm no HD mechanic, but IMO, running the engine on a stand and running it on the road are unfortunately often two different things.  When you're on the road, you're changing gears at usually lunges of rpms- this should causing spiking in your oil pressure which you may not be providing when running the engine in the garage.  I'm theorizing here, but I'm seeing these repeating oil pressure spikes overcoming an otherwise adequate seal at lower oil pressure.  This may be why you seem to be having inconsistent findings on when the leak appears on different rides.  Maybe try a few dozen revs to your typical hard acceleration peak rpms that you normally do when accelerating from a stop (I'm thinking 20 or 30 revs?), see if the oil pressure spikes punch through a weak spot.  Of course, you'd want to do this after the engine is well warmed up, I've had a head gasket start leaking on me doing it too soon when the engine was a little cold....whoops.  That's what I'd try anyways.   Definitely have to find where the leak is too tho- I like kd's idea.

[Chief0299]

Disclaimer: I have a bad habit as coming across as though I'm talking down to people or being a smart ass when posting online. Rest assured, that's not my intention.

Youre on the 4th oil pan gasket. At what point do you decide that the oil pan gasket is most likely not the problem?

KD has some really, really awesome suggestions.

I'd like to add to them if possible.

But first... name off the last 10 things you've done to the bike prior to changing the oil pan gasket. Typically, when new problems surface on a bike that has otherwise been maintained well and running good, the new issues are related to something recently done. You already mentioned you replaced the head breathers. What drove deciding to replace them?

You've said that there are no signs of a leak when running on the stand, even when run up to full temp. To me, that's a good indication that oil is potentially leaking from something/somewhere forward of the oil pan and wind is blowing it back to the oil pan. Try decreasing and using non chlorinated break parts cleaner all over the engine, then go a ride.

You did say that oil started leaking after an hour on the side stand. Try to repeat that leak after degreasing everything. Then decrease again with non chlorinated brake parts cleaner. Sit for an hour and wait.

Edit to add: what was the reason for replacing all of the trans and primary seals and gaskets? Did you remove/unbolt the engine and trans (seperate the engine and trans at the mating surface) at all for any reason? Last one for now... after you cleaned off all the rtv from when you tried to use it, did you run a tap or thread chaser into the bolt holes to clean out any excess rtv? If there's any in there, it will compress and give a false torque.

[RoadKingKohn]

Disclaimer: I have a bad habit as coming across as though I'm talking down to people or being a smart ass when posting online. Rest assured, that's not my intention.

Youre on the 4th oil pan gasket. At what point do you decide that the oil pan gasket is most likely not the problem?

KD has some really, really awesome suggestions.

I'd like to add to them if possible.

But first... name off the last 10 things you've done to the bike prior to changing the oil pan gasket. Typically, when new problems surface on a bike that has otherwise been maintained well and running good, the new issues are related to something recently done. You already mentioned you replaced the head breathers. What drove deciding to replace them?

You've said that there are no signs of a leak when running on the stand, even when run up to full temp. To me, that's a good indication that oil is potentially leaking from something/somewhere forward of the oil pan and wind is blowing it back to the oil pan. Try decreasing and using non chlorinated break parts cleaner all over the engine, then go a ride.

You did say that oil started leaking after an hour on the side stand. Try to repeat that leak after degreasing everything. Then decrease again with non chlorinated brake parts cleaner. Sit for an hour and wait.

Edit to add: what was the reason for replacing all of the trans and primary seals and gaskets? Did you remove/unbolt the engine and trans (seperate the engine and trans at the mating surface) at all for any reason? Last one for now... after you cleaned off all the rtv from when you tried to use it, did you run a tap or thread chaser into the bolt holes to clean out any excess rtv? If there's any in there, it will compress and give a false torque.

I think I pretty much spelled all of this out already.

What I did not mention is that I had replaced all of my transmission and primary seals during the winter.  That should cover about ten items.  Some of the seals were leaking a little so I replaced all of them since there is 73k on the bike.  My riding has slowed down because of a job change.

Head Breathers: "I also have a breather connected to the heads/intake manifold."

Brake Clean: I went through an entire can cleaning inside and out to remove all signs of anything that was not metal or black wrinkle paint.

There is no need to unbolt the engine and transmission when replacing the transmission and primary seals.

Threads were cleaned out with tap and hosed with brake clean.  Blue 243 Loctite was put on each bolt when installing and left to sit for 24 hours before riding.

I have installed the new All Balls Starter 1.7k and am making new battery cables out of 2 gage welding cable.  Should be installing the primary cover, floor board and shifter pegs tomorrow.

I am still trying to figure out how I am going to do the engine breather from the block to the oil spout.  I have a 3/8 compression tee to go over the chrome line but it is looking like it will hit the transmission cover.  So I am looking at a new plan.

[tdrglide]

When you remove the oil pan each time, what is the condition of the used gasket? Is it crushed evenly, or are there thin or thick spots/areas. That should tell you a lot about gasket surfaces and torque procedures. If everything looks good and even, then most likely oil coming from somewhere else. If as last resort, you suspect a cracked case or pan, highly unlikely I would think, you could try to find it using some Spot Check cleaner, dye, and developer. Available through welding supply stores.
Most likely oil getting blown on from somewhere else. Oil filler spout gasket?

[nibroc]

When you remove the oil pan each time, what is the condition of the used gasket? Is it crushed evenly, or are there thin or thick spots/areas. That should tell you a lot about gasket surfaces and torque procedures. If everything looks good and even, then most likely oil coming from somewhere else. If as last resort, you suspect a cracked case or pan, highly unlikely I would think, you could try to find it using some Spot Check cleaner, dye, and developer. Available through welding supply stores.
Most likely oil getting blown on from somewhere else. Oil filler spout gasket?

  ......

[RoadKingKohn]

When you remove the oil pan each time, what is the condition of the used gasket? Is it crushed evenly, or are there thin or thick spots/areas. That should tell you a lot about gasket surfaces and torque procedures. If everything looks good and even, then most likely oil coming from somewhere else. If as last resort, you suspect a cracked case or pan, highly unlikely I would think, you could try to find it using some Spot Check cleaner, dye, and developer. Available through welding supply stores.
Most likely oil getting blown on from somewhere else. Oil filler spout gasket?

I have been looking at the gaskets since the second one.  They all have seemed to be even.  I have tried a cometic oil spout gasket first and second time.  Then I switched to a James beaded gasket this time.  Each time I did not see any leaking from the spout gasket.  This was the first place I checked when the leaking started.

I will check out getting some dye.

Right now I am in the reassembly stage and going to a nursing home everyday to make sure that my Dad eats.  He is 91 years old an a retired automotive safety engineer starting in 1956 with Ford.  He is the reason why you have soft interiors and seatbelts.  He raised a stink about the auto companies not wanting to put safety equipment in cars starting in the late 50s.  He got his way in the 60s.

So right now I don't have a lot of time to put into the bike.  But it will be running again.

Thank you for the ideas.

[tdrglide]

Hope I'm not sending you down a rabbit hole with the dye suggestion. If you use it, a very little dye goes a long way.and it will still get on you and your clothes. Use q-tips to apply
Sorry to hear about your Dad

[hogmandon]

Since it mainly leaks on the right side and you replaced the starter it might be the fill hole plate that has 3 bolts holding it on. I have had to remove that when putting in a stronger all balls starter and one time I had to grind it down so the starter would fit. Just a thought.

[RoadKingKohn]

Since it mainly leaks on the right side and you replaced the starter it might be the fill hole plate that has 3 bolts holding it on. I have had to remove that when putting in a stronger all balls starter and one time I had to grind it down so the starter would fit. Just a thought.

It was leaking before I had to replace the starter.

I just finished putting in an engine to oil filler breather that I made.

It is still leaking after everything I have replaced or checked. Except one thing. I have a Jagg 4700 adapter that I run the lines into my front engine guard. I am beginning to think that the thermostat in it has failed and it is letting the extra 1.5 quarts into the oil pan.

My next plan is to fix the Jagg and replace the oil pan gasket with a James Gasket instead of the Cometic or Harley ones that have all leaked.

[hogmandon]

I had to replace pan gasket after a crank failure to get all the metal out and used a James gasket. Never leaked. Had to do it again after a piston oiler broke off and made a mess this time I had to use an HD because nothing else was available during COVID. It weeped for a while then seems to have stopped.

[hogmandon]

I also had the o ring on the neutral light switch on top of tranny go bad but never the amount of oil you are talking about. That is a serious leak

[SP33DY]

Make sure there are no cracks in the transmission case. Ran into one like that on a 5 speed TC awhile back.  Customer said it had a new pan and gasket but it oiled down my dyno real good!

[Hossamania]

I've had a leak on the right side under the transmission clutch cover, behind the exhaust, thought a pan gasket, but I found the two bolts for the trap door holding the exhaust bracket to be loose. Just now tightened them up and hoping that takes care of it. Exhaust will be coming off soon for tensioner pad replacement, so will probably just throw a new gasket in there.
I thought it was motor oil, because I use red tranny oil this time, but I think it got diluted with old tranny oil residue that had been leaking that wasn't red, gave me a false reading. This last time I just let it drip on the cement floor and found it to be red, tranny leaking, found the loose bolts.

[RoadKingKohn]

I've had a leak on the right side under the transmission clutch cover, behind the exhaust, thought a pan gasket, but I found the two bolts for the trap door holding the exhaust bracket to be loose. Just now tightened them up and hoping that takes care of it. Exhaust will be coming off soon for tensioner pad replacement, so will probably just throw a new gasket in there.
I thought it was motor oil, because I use red tranny oil this time, but I think it got diluted with old tranny oil residue that had been leaking that wasn't red, gave me a false reading. This last time I just let it drip on the cement floor and found it to be red, tranny leaking, found the loose bolts.

I have been using red ATF oil in my primary since 5,000 miles. I have 73,000 miles now.

[RoadKingKohn]

Make sure there are no cracks in the transmission case. Ran into one like that on a 5 speed TC awhile back.  Customer said it had a new pan and gasket but it oiled down my dyno real good!

Last time I had the pan off I sprayed the transmission case down with brake clean. Looked for cracks where the brake clean would have stayed wet. Nothing. Ran my finger nail everywhere trying to feel a crack. Nothing.

[billbuilds]

    Are you certain that the leak is not coming from the fifth gear seal or shifter shaft seal? I am starting to seriously doubt that it's the pan gasket at fault.