Original oil pan started leaking

[RoadKingKohn]

Are you certain that the leak is not coming from the fifth gear seal or shifter shaft seal? I am starting to seriously doubt that it's the pan gasket at fault.

If it were the fifth gear or shifter shaft I would be losing transmission oil.  I have not lost any.

I have only lost engine oil. Golden color.

My primary oil is red.

The only oil dripping is golden color and is coming from the midpoint of the oil pan on both sides.  Most of the oil looks to becoming from the right side/brake pedal of the oil pan gasket.

[ziggy24]

Do you have an cooler, and or lines near that area?

[Hossamania]

Have you checked the bolts that hold the exhaust bracket to the transmission?
What color is your tranny oil?

[Hossamania]

Have you checked the bolts that hold the exhaust bracket to the transmission?
What color is your tranny oil?

That may be a non issue as you said the motor oil is going down, not tranny oil. Still, those bolts are worth checking.

[RoadKingKohn]

Do you have an cooler, and or lines near that area?

I do have a oil cooler that runs through my front engine guard.  The connection uses a Jagg adapter where the oil filter goes.  There is no oil dripping from before the engine to transmission case connection.

[RoadKingKohn]

Have you checked the bolts that hold the exhaust bracket to the transmission?
What color is your tranny oil?

Transmission oil is golden color and has not gone down at all.  I have checked all of the bolts having to do with the transmission case connection to the engine case and everything else behind it.

I finally found a James oil pan gasket and ordered it.  Should be to me on September 6th.  I should be able to work on it again September 19th.  Until then I am oiling the earth.

[billbuilds]

     I left my 1999 FLHR oil pan fasteners torqued to 108 in lb (high end of spec in SM). Put close to 800 miles on new top end and no leaks. I used the Moco's offering which was a metal core gasket very similar to the one I used on my 2011 which I torqued to 144 in lb (about middle of spec in SM). No leaks there either. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had good luck with the metal core gasket. Have you given any thought to heat cycling the new gasket? I'm not sure that you should really need to but I don't have much more to offer at this time. 

[RoadKingKohn]

I left my 1999 FLHR oil pan fasteners torqued to 108 in lb (high end of spec in SM). Put close to 800 miles on new top end and no leaks. I used the Moco's offering which was a metal core gasket very similar to the one I used on my 2011 which I torqued to 144 in lb (about middle of spec in SM). No leaks there either. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had good luck with the metal core gasket. Have you given any thought to heat cycling the new gasket? I'm not sure that you should really need to but I don't have much more to offer at this time. 

All of the past gaskets have been Cometic metal core but with one of them being an actual MOCO one.  The MOCO one had a heat cycle by doing a 4 mile run then cool 1 hour to do another 4 mile run and then cool for 24 hours.  The next ride was 30 miles one way on the highway with speeds of 45, 55 and 70 mph.  It leaked a lot.  After returning at the same distance and speeds it leaked even more to where I lost 1/2 quart in 60 miles.  After that I did the following in the torquing sequence from the manual.  The MOCO gasket was first tightened to 96 in lbs, then 108, 120, 132 and then 144.  The next 30 + 30 mile ride it did not leak as much but did leak about 8 ounces total.  Next I torqued it to 168 in lbs in sequence while hot and then the next when it was cold.  Still leaks but is now at about 4 ounces on a 20 + 20 mile run with speeds of 35 to 50 mph.  Now it still leaks the 4 to 6 ounces range.

[kd]

I left my 1999 FLHR oil pan fasteners torqued to 108 in lb (high end of spec in SM). Put close to 800 miles on new top end and no leaks. I used the Moco's offering which was a metal core gasket very similar to the one I used on my 2011 which I torqued to 144 in lb (about middle of spec in SM). No leaks there either. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had good luck with the metal core gasket. Have you given any thought to heat cycling the new gasket? I'm not sure that you should really need to but I don't have much more to offer at this time. 

All of the past gaskets have been Cometic metal core but with one of them being an actual MOCO one.  The MOCO one had a heat cycle by doing a 4 mile run then cool 1 hour to do another 4 mile run and then cool for 24 hours.  The next ride was 30 miles one way on the highway with speeds of 45, 55 and 70 mph.  It leaked a lot.  After returning at the same distance and speeds it leaked even more to where I lost 1/2 quart in 60 miles.  After that I did the following in the torquing sequence from the manual.  The MOCO gasket was first tightened to 96 in lbs, then 108, 120, 132 and then 144.  The next 30 + 30 mile ride it did not leak as much but did leak about 8 ounces total.  Next I torqued it to 168 in lbs in sequence while hot and then the next when it was cold.  Still leaks but is now at about 4 ounces on a 20 + 20 mile run with speeds of 35 to 50 mph.  Now it still leaks the 4 to 6 ounces range.

I have been away from the thread for a while but I still think (if you haven't already) you need to do a good cleaning that leaves no oily film and take it for a ride.  Then blow some talc or baby powder into all areas and look for a track of leaking oil.  Don't make the initial ride too long so you can catch the leak as it starts and not after it contaminates everything.   Short trips until it shows up.  It may be temp sensitive.

I personally will be very surprised if your pan gasket(s) is the problem after all the replacements.  I am beginning to  think it is very likely the gasket between the engine and trans case. surfaces.  The powder treatment is the most likely way to show leaks from other places.

[RoadKingKohn]

I left my 1999 FLHR oil pan fasteners torqued to 108 in lb (high end of spec in SM). Put close to 800 miles on new top end and no leaks. I used the Moco's offering which was a metal core gasket very similar to the one I used on my 2011 which I torqued to 144 in lb (about middle of spec in SM). No leaks there either. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had good luck with the metal core gasket. Have you given any thought to heat cycling the new gasket? I'm not sure that you should really need to but I don't have much more to offer at this time. 

All of the past gaskets have been Cometic metal core but with one of them being an actual MOCO one.  The MOCO one had a heat cycle by doing a 4 mile run then cool 1 hour to do another 4 mile run and then cool for 24 hours.  The next ride was 30 miles one way on the highway with speeds of 45, 55 and 70 mph.  It leaked a lot.  After returning at the same distance and speeds it leaked even more to where I lost 1/2 quart in 60 miles.  After that I did the following in the torquing sequence from the manual.  The MOCO gasket was first tightened to 96 in lbs, then 108, 120, 132 and then 144.  The next 30 + 30 mile ride it did not leak as much but did leak about 8 ounces total.  Next I torqued it to 168 in lbs in sequence while hot and then the next when it was cold.  Still leaks but is now at about 4 ounces on a 20 + 20 mile run with speeds of 35 to 50 mph.  Now it still leaks the 4 to 6 ounces range.

I have been away from the thread for a while but I still think (if you haven't already) you need to do a good cleaning that leaves no oily film and take it for a ride.  Then blow some talc or baby powder into all areas and look for a track of leaking oil.  Don't make the initial ride too long so you can catch the leak as it starts and not after it contaminates everything.   Short trips until it shows up.  It may be temp sensitive.

I personally will be very surprised if your pan gasket(s) is the problem after all the replacements.  I am beginning to  think it is very likely the gasket between the engine and trans case. surfaces.  The powder treatment is the most likely way to show leaks from other places.

Looks like I need to get to more cans of brake clean.

My bike is a 2005.  There is no gasket between the engine and transmission case.  There are 1/4 NPT male nipples with clamps coming off of the engine and transmission cases with rubber hoses connecting them with clamps behind a cover.  In all the times I have checked those connections I have not found one drop of oil.

Do you have a speed limit and distance idea that I should stay under?  The temp here should be in the 78 to 88 degrees range for the next week.

Thank you

[RoadKingKohn]

I left my 1999 FLHR oil pan fasteners torqued to 108 in lb (high end of spec in SM). Put close to 800 miles on new top end and no leaks. I used the Moco's offering which was a metal core gasket very similar to the one I used on my 2011 which I torqued to 144 in lb (about middle of spec in SM). No leaks there either. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had good luck with the metal core gasket. Have you given any thought to heat cycling the new gasket? I'm not sure that you should really need to but I don't have much more to offer at this time. 

All of the past gaskets have been Cometic metal core but with one of them being an actual MOCO one.  The MOCO one had a heat cycle by doing a 4 mile run then cool 1 hour to do another 4 mile run and then cool for 24 hours.  The next ride was 30 miles one way on the highway with speeds of 45, 55 and 70 mph.  It leaked a lot.  After returning at the same distance and speeds it leaked even more to where I lost 1/2 quart in 60 miles.  After that I did the following in the torquing sequence from the manual.  The MOCO gasket was first tightened to 96 in lbs, then 108, 120, 132 and then 144.  The next 30 + 30 mile ride it did not leak as much but did leak about 8 ounces total.  Next I torqued it to 168 in lbs in sequence while hot and then the next when it was cold.  Still leaks but is now at about 4 ounces on a 20 + 20 mile run with speeds of 35 to 50 mph.  Now it still leaks the 4 to 6 ounces range.

I have been away from the thread for a while but I still think (if you haven't already) you need to do a good cleaning that leaves no oily film and take it for a ride.  Then blow some talc or baby powder into all areas and look for a track of leaking oil.  Don't make the initial ride too long so you can catch the leak as it starts and not after it contaminates everything.   Short trips until it shows up.  It may be temp sensitive.

I personally will be very surprised if your pan gasket(s) is the problem after all the replacements.  I am beginning to  think it is very likely the gasket between the engine and trans case. surfaces.  The powder treatment is the most likely way to show leaks from other places.

I just thought of this.

I have a question and information that I am wondering if it might be a cause of the leaking.

After replacing all of my primary and transmission seals and gaskets last winter I also installed an intake oil catch can from DK Customs, in April 2022, and a breather between the engine and oil filler with a check valve and filter in August 2022.  Also during the winter I replaced my cam plate and oil pump with S&S Cycle units.

Do you think it is possible that the S&S Cycle oil pump could be making so much pressure that it is forcing the oil out?

[Hossamania]

As far as time and distance of riding, it seems the leak starts pretty quickly, I'd start with, check at idle for a minute, hold the bike upright to simulate riding configuration, check for leaks, then a quick 5 minute ride and let it sit, inspecting the whole time, then 5 more if it hasn't started leaking, checking immediately when stopped. I might even be tempted to bring a flashlight and check it after going down the road a minute at first and subsequent rides.

[RoadKingKohn]

As far as time and distance of riding, it seems the leak starts pretty quickly, I'd start with, check at idle for a minute, hold the bike upright to simulate riding configuration, check for leaks, then a quick 5 minute ride and let it sit, inspecting the whole time, then 5 more if it hasn't started leaking, checking immediately when stopped. I might even be tempted to bring a flashlight and check it after going down the road a minute at first and subsequent rides.

I have pretty much done all of this several times over.

[billbuilds]

     At this point I'd be thinking about going back to the earlier style oil pan with the removable baffle.

[RoadKingKohn]

At this point I'd be thinking about going back to the earlier style oil pan with the removable baffle.

You do know that it was the start of the leaking problem? 3 gaskets. Maybe I should put white rubber tires on too.

[kd]

I feel your frustration RKK. It's hard to believe an oil pan change and 3 gaskets later there's no joy.  That's why I am thinking it's probably not the pan and gasket.  I think the trick is to catch it at the early stage of leaking after being cleaned and dried off.  To much riding in the wind (turbulence) can move it around and hide the real source.  I remember someone suggesting adding some crankcase pressure while static and see if it reveals itself.

If 5 miles doesn't make it leak, it will at least be hot and thin the oil.  If it is still dry after a thorough check, try removing the dip stick and wrap a rag around an air nozzle. Use it to seal the nozzle in the dip stick hole and gently add some crankcase pressure.  Recheck and use some powder too. Hopefully it will show a small leak and you'll have the culprit.  Don't overdo it with the air pressure.  The goal is to get it to mark it's spot, not blow seals etc. 

[billbuilds]

At this point I'd be thinking about going back to the earlier style oil pan with the removable baffle.

You do know that it was the start of the leaking problem? 3 gaskets. Maybe I should put white rubber tires on too.

    No and maybe you should. Sorry bother you.

[RoadKingKohn]

I feel your frustration RKK. It's hard to believe an oil pan change and 3 gaskets later there's no joy.  That's why I am thinking it's probably not the pan and gasket.  I think the trick is to catch it at the early stage of leaking after being cleaned and dried off.  To much riding in the wind (turbulence) can move it around and hide the real source.  I remember someone suggesting adding some crankcase pressure while static and see if it reveals itself.

If 5 miles doesn't make it leak, it will at least be hot and thin the oil.  If it is still dry after a thorough check, try removing the dip stick and wrap a rag around an air nozzle. Use it to seal the nozzle in the dip stick hole and gently add some crankcase pressure.  Recheck and use some powder too. Hopefully it will show a small leak and you'll have the culprit.  Don't overdo it with the air pressure.  The goal is to get it to mark it's spot, not blow seals etc. 

You know what I like about your advice and ideas KD?  I can tell that you read what I typed before giving advice and ideas.  That is what I call wisdom.

[RoadKingKohn]

At this point all I can offer you is an alternate trouble shooting method.  IMO you also need to confirm your breathers are functioning properly and not building crankcase pressure. 

Thoroughly clean "all" of the contaminated areas with brake clean and a toothbrush or similar method.  I say all because a hot oil leak on the left side could easily follow a casting profile to the right side before it drips or sprays about.  Blow it dry and repeat.  Use some baby talc powder and blow it gently all around the trans and not just the gasket surface edge.  Include an inspection and cleaning of the oil dipstick and plug for clean and leaks. You should not see any clumping or noticeable sticking of large amounts of powder (anywhere).  Top up the oil before reinstalling.

When you are satisfied there is no powder residue remaining, remove the breather lines to expose the vents. blow into and draw out to determine that the one way valve operation is working. Then start the engine and let it idle and recheck the vents.  Use a higher rpm also to confirm they are not being effected by rpm.  You should feel puffing (exhausting) air.  A smoking cigarette or piece of string held to the exit or hose will give you a visual confirmation. 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,118348.0.html

If OK retest the areas with talc powder to see if anything has developed.  You need to catch it early and not in the wind where it can spread. 

If still dry go through a few cycles of idle and include a little throttle to increase the rpm and recheck with talc. If it doesn't show up it may be that you need some road vibration and tilting each way from curves.  If you can't do that while stationary with the help of a friend take it only around the block and recheck.  I am sure you see the method is to use small amounts of run time to catch it at the start and to not ride fast enough to spread it in the wind.  Remember that hot oil is thinner so it is most likely when you will see traces.  I know it sounds like a lot of time but in comparison to changing gaskets (like throwing mud to see what sticks) you will be more likely to find it. 

IMO, the trick is to catch the first few drips and before the wind moves them. 

I was finally able to get some baby powder sprayed up along the oil pan seam.  All socket head screw were torqued to 168 in-lbs.  At idle nothing showed up.  Did a mile drive around with speeds of the 25mph maximum.  Still no signs of a leak.  Then drove 28 miles with speeds of 45 to 70 mph but out side temperature was 70F and 3 drops fell in a parking lot after sitting for 10 minutes.  Return trip was all back roads with speeds from 35 to 55 mph and temperature of 85F.  A very slight leak at the #4 position of the torque sequence.  The DK Custom front intake breather catch can was putting out a few drops of emulsified water oil.  The rear, I made it myself, engine case to oil filler breather was dropping a lot of emulsified water oil.  Oil spray up and around pretty much gone.  I have a James replacement gasket waiting that I will put on in the winter.  The dripping is now at a bearable amount.  I keep on checking the torque after each trip when I get back to my house.