Correcting PV Hot Idle Issue

[Jim Bronson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that FM only provides tunes if the PV was purchased from them.

[hrdtail78]

Just playing around today, I added another 8 steps to the IAC Crank To Run table (for a total of 16 steps). I didn't see any improvement. Ever since I started adding steps to this table, it no longer bucks on startup. It starts normally and idles smoothly for a few seconds and then smoothly shuts off.

I'm thinking I should look elsewhere now, but I'm flying blind.

I would make my VE's a set 85 from lowest rpm to about 1500.  From 0-15% tps.  Front and rear.  Leave the target alone and make sure closed loop tab is set to zero.  Does Vision allow you to log this start up?  It would be nice to see what is happening when it dies?

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

[Jim Bronson]

Many thanks hrdtail78. I'll try your suggestions and see what happens. I've never used the logging feature. I'll give it a try.

Good to know that FM can supply a tune. I suspect the DJ tune is pretty general.

[cheech]

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

Good to know that FM can supply a tune. I suspect the DJ tune is pretty general.

YEP. But only $99.95

[Jim Bronson]

I would make my VE's a set 85 from lowest rpm to about 1500.  From 0-15% tps.  Front and rear.  Leave the target alone and make sure closed loop tab is set to zero.  Does Vision allow you to log this start up?  It would be nice to see what is happening when it dies?

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

I did the above changes, but the issue didn't resolve. The FM tune is starting to look better. Unfortunately, they won't even sell a map to CA.

We used to have a great tuner near here, but I recently learned he moved to Texas. The shop owner is running the dyno now. He's a nice guy, but I'm not confident in his skills.

[hrdtail78]

Frustrating for sure.  Hard to tune over the net.  If the bike was in front of me.  There is a couple things I would do. 

First I would try the stock cal I pulled out.  This can determine if tune problem or a mechanical problem such as CPS or something.

I would also set one of the VE tables as low as the cal will allow across the entire table.  With the modes of cranking, crank to run and then running on VE?  This will tell me which mode the ECM is in during the shutdown.  If bike starts running on one cylinder.  It has gotten to the run mode on VE's.  This can help in which tables need to be used to address.

I would also do what needs to be down to log the event.  The Visions problem is it gets power from the bike and this power is cut off during cranking.  IE the vision is busy powering up again and no log can be performed.  This can be address a couple different ways.  Power up vision with off bike power source or log with different device.  If TTS is available.  Collection speed needs to be turned down or this will kill the bike as well.  Without good data of this action.  An educated guess is all we have.  Along with what the tuners can log.  I would also have a fuel pressure gauge on it as well.

IME with the out of box combos and no good starters.  I have not had this problem at the extreme you are seeing.  Sure I get blubbering to run, flares, stumbles and such.  Maybe a pop and white smoke out of AC as it dies but have never seen engine quit smoothly like stated.  It was my opinion that this area has a pretty big tolerance of error and still does what it is suppose to do.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks again hrdtail78. There are some good tips there for me to pursue. I think I'll inspect and test the IAC. The bike sat for long periods (It is a 2013, and it had only 2800 miles when I bought it in January of this year). The original DJ map was installed by the tech who did the work before he delivered it. He only rode it briefly to check for leaks, etc. After he delivered it, I started doing the auto-tune sessions. I don't recall that I rode it with the original map, and I probably didn't try to start it while hot. I'll install the original map and see if the problem is still there, or maybe was a result of the auto-tune. Lots of areas to explore. Stay tuned ...

[Jim Bronson]

I increased the 'IAC steps vs temp' table today to 120 over the highest temps. It still dies after trying a hot start, but it runs longer before shutting down than it did before with 110 steps. I guess that's progress, but I'm wondering how many steps would be considered excessive and should cause me to look elsewhere. Maybe bump up the VE table 5% in the 750° cells, like in the post #21 suggestion.

[Sunny Jim]

I increased the 'IAC steps vs temp' table today to 120 over the highest temps. It still dies after trying a hot start, but it runs longer before shutting down than it did before with 110 steps. I guess that's progress, but I'm wondering how many steps would be considered excessive and should cause me to look elsewhere. Maybe bump up the VE table 5% in the 750° cells, like in the post #21 suggestion.

You're running out of fuel.
Can you collect any data and check it on HDMLV?
If you are working by trial and error , then bump up the VEs

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks Sunny Jim. I'll try increasing the 750 and 1000 VEs today at zero throttle.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks Sunny Jim. I'll try increasing the 750 and 1000 VEs today at zero throttle.

Tried this today (+5% for both RPM cells at 0% throttle.) No change. Should I continue with +5% steps?

[Jamie Long]

The cranking steps should not need to be that high, I'm not clear on the exact issue you are encountering. Please give a detailed description as well as the year/model of your bike and all of the mods that have been done, also post a copy of the tune and I will take a look.

[Jim Bronson]

Thank you Jamie.
The bike is a 2013 Dyna FXDC.
S&S 110 kit
S&S 585 cam
S&S free flowing air filter
V&H Pro Pipe 2 into 1 exhaust/quiet baffle
Power Vision (wish I had bought from FM, but I live in CA)

After three auto-tune sessions, I noticed it would not start and run when hot without using a little throttle. After about 10 seconds of holding some throttle, it idles fine. Otherwise it runs smooth and strong, and it starts normally when cold. If I wait about an hour after shutting down, it cools enough to start normally. Someone recommended increasing "Cranking Fuel", but I cannot see that table in WinPV, even though other forum members can see it. I've tried two Windows PCs, and I cannot see it on either one. Any insights on the problem would be appreciated. I'm going to do another auto-tune session today, and I'll post the current tune afterwards.
Again,many thanks.

[Jim Bronson]

Fourth Auto Tune session from today's ride.

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[rigidthumper]

I'm curious if smoothing the lower RPM/TP VE table would help?

[Jim Bronson]

I received a reply from DJ today regarding why others in the forum can see my Cranking Fuel Table and I can't.

With the latest public release of the WinPV software and PV firmware, the average individual does not have access to the Cranking Fuel table of the tune.  If someone else is able to see it, they are either using older updates or they have the Calibrator file, which allows access to many more tables, that is normally only provided to shops.

I guess we average individuals are screwed.

[cheech]

That's BS if true. 
Not saying you're not, just if the person that sent it is correct.

[Jim Bronson]

I won't post a copy of my reply since this is a family forum. When I previously asked them for hints about fixing my hot starting issue, they sent me some canned info and then suggested I have it dynoed. I agree that a dyno tune by a competent tuner wound be preferable to auto tuning, but my tuner has relocated to Texas, and I don't know of anyone else I can trust around here. The whole reason for buying the PV was to get an acceptable tune for my configuration and have fun doing it.

Thanks for nothing DJ.

[hrdtail78]

Good news.  Tooth count is still a table.  About a 1/4 of the info the system needs to know angle of crank but with so many non 32 tooth cranks on the market.....

[Jim Bronson]

Requested PV folder.

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[Ohio HD]

Mine is the same.

[Mirrmu]

So I see this as temp is impacting fuel delivery to start engine

What section in PV deals with this, bike runs fine

[rigidthumper]

IAC Warmup steps adds a little air to the IAC base position to maintain steady idle during warmup.
Logging from start to full temp would show what the steps and AFR are doing during this time, and give an indicator if it's getting too much air (lean sneeze/die) or too little air (rich stumble/die), and at what temp & IAC position that occurs.

[hrdtail78]

IAC Warmup steps adds a little air to the IAC base position to maintain steady idle during warmup.
Logging from start to full temp would show what the steps and AFR are doing during this time, and give an indicator if it's getting too much air (lean sneeze/die) or too little air (rich stumble/die), and at what temp & IAC position that occurs.

How do you log start up with vision?  I set it up to log at key on, but once the bike starter button is hit.  It limits 12 volts and the unit is restarting while it should be logging.

[rigidthumper]

IDK, but I thought you could log with C3, through Powercore? PV power would come through the USB cable from the PC.