Oil mist from breather & Hayden Krank Vent Plus

Started by 1340evo, August 30, 2022, 02:01:03 PM

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1340evo

Hi Again.. 89 bottom breather and I have the breather running to a small K&N chrome filter thing under the bike. But it's misting up the underside of the bike.. Any thoughts on how best to stop it?

I have seen on here before about oi catch tanks and I could do that, but also remember people talking about Hayden Krank Vent Plus having a posative effect on misting issues.

Any thoughts on this please... Maybe silver was not the best choise to paint my engine  :wink:

HogMike

I ran my breather tube from the engine vent to a catch can mounted behind the primary cover.
Took off the little breather screen and ran tubing from that hole to the bottom of the rear fender. Can't really see anything and I empty the can every few rides.
Bike stays clean.
Works for me for years.
 :missed:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Hossamania

Has the filter been cleaned on a regular basis?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

JSD


JW113

Jog my memory, didn't you just rebuild this engine? If so, how many miles?

The krank vent won't keep it from exhausting oil mist out the breather, it's job is to hold a partial vacuum inside the crankcase. If you have blowby, it's going to come out krank vent or no.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

1340evo

I've got about 750 miles on now since re-build and still on mineral oil, but does not appear to be getting any better. It's only mist that's coming out but collects on the small filter and local area so is something I wipe off every now and then.
Its a bottom breather and they all do it or so I'm told... is a catch tank the way forward then? have see some posts saying the valve solved the misting issue?
BTW, I have a steel valve that replaced the plastic one....

JW113

Where is the outlet (filter) physically located?

By all means use some sort of Krank Vent, it does more to hold oil in the motor rather than ooze out through the seams, and also helps with ring seal. I don't have much use for those filters at the end of the breather hose, just makes a mess from my past experience. I just run the hose to the back of the frame, and point it at the ground off to the side of the rear tire.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

1340evo

its here, so lower than the outlet which may be part of the issue.

So would running a Hayden Krank Vent Plus hold the oil in from the vent do you think.. people say thay work for them stopping oil misting out.
Do you just plug the thing in and run with the existing system?
Are there other types to try that may work better?

If you don't have a filter on the end can it drag things into the engine?


Ohio HD

August 31, 2022, 12:58:12 PM #8 Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 01:03:11 PM by Ohio HD
The Hayden vent will not keep oil from coming out of the breather hose. It only stops air flow from going into the motor. It's a one way valve just like the S&S valves that are much less expensive.


S&S 50-8122





Ohio HD

All that the expensive Hayden unit does is house the $4.00 Twin Cam breather flap, part number 26858-99. A lot of money for a housing for the $4.00 flap.




1340evo

okay, thanks for this. I guess if I fit one of these in-line I can run the pipe open to ground as it won't suck back in....
With a bottom breather can I just plug it into the tube with everything else still installed? Obviously the right way around to it allows pressure out.  :SM:

kd

With the mount you use on your filter you have created a type of pitot tube.  That's drawing the mist out of the crankcase and venting it into the turbulence as you ride. It is possible repositioning it to a clean atmosphere up higher may resolve it.

I have 2 head breathing Evo's vented with a long tube that ends on the right rear side of the trans and made sure it was terminated up out of the draft.  They work well with only the occasional single drip after a long hard run, but as said, they are head breathers.

I don't remember if you are running a chain or belt.  If it's a chain, another alternative is to direct the hose to directly above the trans sprocket and terminate it there. It will make good use of the occasional venting drip.
KD

1340evo

good call, it may be acting as a kind of venturi where it is?

I did suggest oiling the chain with it myself but told the 'O' rings in the chain did not like engine oil? not sure why?

I may also get one of the above valves to create negative pressure in the engine whilst I'm at it ...

 :up:

Ohio HD

Quote from: kd on September 01, 2022, 06:56:52 AMWith the mount you use on your filter you have created a type of pitot tube.  That's drawing the mist out of the crankcase and venting it into the turbulence as you ride. It is possible repositioning it to a clean atmosphere up higher may resolve it.

Good call

Your old enough to remember the road draft tubes that cars and trucks used before the PCV was invented. They changed the angle of the cut off of the vertical tube catching air under the motor to tune the amount of average suction.

Ohio HD


Will-Run

Quote from: kd on September 01, 2022, 06:56:52 AMWith the mount you use on your filter you have created a type of pitot tube.  That's drawing the mist out of the crankcase and venting it into the turbulence as you ride. It is possible repositioning it to a clean atmosphere up higher may resolve it.

I have 2 head breathing Evo's vented with a long tube that ends on the right rear side of the trans and made sure it was terminated up out of the draft.  They work well with only the occasional single drip after a long hard run, but as said, they are head breathers.

I don't remember if you are running a chain or belt.  If it's a chain, another alternative is to direct the hose to directly above the trans sprocket and terminate it there. It will make good use of the occasional venting drip.
Would there be any advantage to putting one way valves on setups like yours?. Thank you.
Lean Angle, " Is Life."

kd

Quote from: Will-Run on September 01, 2022, 12:26:49 PM
Quote from: kd on September 01, 2022, 06:56:52 AMWith the mount you use on your filter you have created a type of pitot tube.  That's drawing the mist out of the crankcase and venting it into the turbulence as you ride. It is possible repositioning it to a clean atmosphere up higher may resolve it.

I have 2 head breathing Evo's vented with a long tube that ends on the right rear side of the trans and made sure it was terminated up out of the draft.  They work well with only the occasional single drip after a long hard run, but as said, they are head breathers.

I don't remember if you are running a chain or belt.  If it's a chain, another alternative is to direct the hose to directly above the trans sprocket and terminate it there. It will make good use of the occasional venting drip.
Would there be any advantage to putting one way valves on setups like yours?. Thank you.


There was a thread about a couple of months or so back that Ohio was in relating to the S&S valves that may answer that question.  I just went raw and open because the 3/8" tube I used was about 6' long to the exit end.  I wasn't concerned with any backward feed at that length.  I figured I would keep it simple and try that first.  I can say the misting (drips from the breather onto the engine) was regular when running hard on hot days and it was resolved after that.  Previously I used a 2" long folded piece of absorbent paper towel between the bottom of the filter and the cover.  After the hose working I didn't see any reason to fool with success.  :wink: .

I searched using - s&s one way breather valves and found a few threads I remember discussions that may help you decide.   My hose starts out at the carb ase and travels to the front of the engine and down then to the back so it may be considerably longer than what you are looking at.   The searched threads may be more helpful if a position change doesn't work.  I'd be inclined to get it out of the wind and try a new position first.
KD

1340evo

6 foot of pipe !.. that must restrict it a lot I'd of thought, especially if you get any sump areas in there where oil collects?

kd

Quote from: 1340evo on September 02, 2022, 11:53:25 AM6 foot of pipe !.. that must restrict it a lot I'd of thought, especially if you get any sump areas in there where oil collects?

That's 6' of 3/8" ID tube for the full length. All considered it is way less restrictive than 1 fitting or the S&S one way valve ports. 
KD

1340evo


1340evo

Did a 15-20 mile run tonight with the breather pipe into a 4" x 1 1/2 dia catch bottle and this is what came out. There is quite a lot of condensation in there. I'll see if it settles out into oil?
This is with the pipe going down still. I need to get some more pipe and run it up like sugested....

JSD

Short runs build condensation motor not getting hot. Cover oil cooler if running cold weather.

kd

Your pistons and head surfaces will thank you.  The blanket of carbon is formed by burning the oily  contaminated air when the crankcase vents that crud through the breather into the cylinders.
KD

1340evo

So what's the original breather pipe direction for the bottom breathers? Where did the pipe go?

As you see I have a straight pipe out of the case now, but I also have a 90 deg fitting of the same size in my spares box so wondering if originally it came out and went through 90 deg somewhere?

Also, if I did point it up and take the pipe straight up first so any oil ran back into the engine, what would happen if the pipe eventually filled with oil and it could not breath? could this happen??



Ohio HD

Originally it went to the are filter housing.

If the motor is expelling oil out of the breather line, then oil will eventually find the end of the hose and puke out no matter how it's arranged on the bike.

1340evo

It's only a mist....

So it won't harm it if it went up in the first place as thats what it did originaly, But you think it won't help either.. may as well go down and to ground or a catch tank?

A lot of posts say take it up over the box first and that reduces the amount as it condences out and goes back into the system ??

Ohio HD

It still has to go up or down with the hose. As well as condensation mixed in the oil mist, it has to go somewhere.  A catch can is the way to contain it. Problem solved.

1340evo

Spent a few hours today making a catch can so lets see what I catch. Not the best engineered of things :)

On reflection I maybe should of finished the copper pipe at the gap on plat 2 to 3, that way the oil had somewhere to go out of the turbulance, so maybe a mod I can do if this does not catch it all  :wink:


kd

September 17, 2022, 02:26:07 PM #28 Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 03:11:45 PM by kd
Nice job. For your consideration, here's a couple of suggestions for perfection.  Move the plates up closer to the top at the width of the nut apart. Add a wafer of loose horse hair type of wool (or coarse stainless steel wool) between the top and 1-2 & 2-3 plates as a breather that will gather oil vapour as it exits.  That will drip into the can and be captured. The air in the exit hose will be cleaner.

Weld a nut or 3/8" block on the base and drill / thread it to 1/8" npt. Add a petcock to it that has a nipple for a short piece of clear tube. Make it so the fitting depth is flush to the bottom of the canister. Now you can drain the content easily into a clear water bottle and cap it so it doesn't spill.  Let it sit and settle and you can analyze the oil / water content ratio.
KD

1340evo

Quote from: kd on September 17, 2022, 02:26:07 PMNice job. For your consideration, here's a couple of suggestions for perfection.  Move the plates up closer to the top at the width of the nut apart. Add a wafer of loose horse hair type of wool (or coarse stainless steel wool) between the top and 1-2 & 2-3 plates as a breather that will gather oil vapour as it exits.  That will drip into the can and be captured. The air in the exit hose will be cleaner.

Weld a nut or 3/8" block on the base and drill / thread it to 1/8" npt. Add a petcock to it that has a nipple for a short piece of clear tube. Make it so the fitting depth is flush to the bottom of the canister. Now you can drain the content easily into a clear water bottle and cap it so it doesn't spill.  Let it sit and settle and you can analyze the oil / water content ratio.

Thanks KD... I didn't want to make it too restrictive by getting the plates too close.

And I get the drain idea, but you can unscrew the container to empty it, so looks a bit cleaner?

As you say, I can play to get it right.

Ive never spent time observing the air flow from the vent until tonight, and by far the most air movement in and out is at tickover. Above that its that quick you don't tend to see much.
So does most purging of the oil happen at low rev's.. Will have to see how it goes on a run tomorrow if its fine  :chop:

kd

September 17, 2022, 04:44:18 PM #30 Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 04:19:26 AM by rigidthumper
Quote from: 1340evo on September 17, 2022, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: kd on September 17, 2022, 02:26:07 PMNice job. For your consideration, here's a couple of suggestions for perfection.  Move the plates up closer to the top at the width of the nut apart. Add a wafer of loose horse hair type of wool (or coarse stainless steel wool) between the top and 1-2 & 2-3 plates as a breather that will gather oil vapour as it exits.  That will drip into the can and be captured. The air in the exit hose will be cleaner.

Weld a nut or 3/8" block on the base and drill / thread it to 1/8" npt. Add a petcock to it that has a nipple for a short piece of clear tube. Make it so the fitting depth is flush to the bottom of the canister. Now you can drain the content easily into a clear water bottle and cap it so it doesn't spill.  Let it sit and settle and you can analyze the oil / water content ratio.

Thanks KD... I didn't want to make it too restrictive by getting the plates too close.

And I get the drain idea, but you can unscrew the container to empty it, so looks a bit cleaner?

As you say, I can play to get it right.

Ive never spent time observing the air flow from the vent until tonight, and by far the most air movement in and out is at tickover. Above that its that quick you don't tend to see much.
So does most purging of the oil happen at low rev's.. Will have to see how it goes on a run tomorrow if its fine  :chop:

What I described to you is my present aluminum catch can.  The difference is my plates are swiss cheese full surface.  It works excellent and never a drip.  This with a 120 engine pumping away.  I salvaged it from a 5.7 hemi engine and repurposed it.  It appears to be the identical volume as yours.  If you want to see what it looks like my Road Glide is in the "Show those Twin Cam" thread on the second page back.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,7196.203.html
KD

1340evo

Hi, neat, I can just see it under the filter.

I did think about the swiss chease idea but then thought making it change dirrection may work better?

I have some of that course wire wool stuff(or my Wife has for doing the dishes) but its a bit big to push in there and din't want to cut it down and get lose strands... Will take a closer look at it.

So as abo0ve, it appears most movement is a tickover and not high RPM as you might expect. I guess at heigher RPM you are either getting negative pressure in there or its compressing the air somewhat?

kd

Quote from: 1340evo on September 18, 2022, 01:12:51 AMHi, neat, I can just see it under the filter.

I did think about the swiss chease idea but then thought making it change dirrection may work better?

I have some of that course wire wool stuff(or my Wife has for doing the dishes) but its a bit big to push in there and din't want to cut it down and get lose strands... Will take a closer look at it.

So as abo0ve, it appears most movement is a tickover and not high RPM as you might expect. I guess at heigher RPM you are either getting negative pressure in there or its compressing the air somewhat?

Your description of it only belching at tickover when starting makes me think it is residual resting in the system.  Once that gets cleared it goes back to making more but that is mist and not condensed from sitting.  I expect it is happening at all rpm but when hot and moving quicker it will exit as more of a vapor
KD

1340evo

No, Sorry, Nothing coming out except air

What I mean is there is air movement in and out at low RPM / tickover area, Once you go above this, the air flow is minimal. I just tried it putting my finger over the tube and reved the bike. It suprised me as I would of thought higher the RPM the more it would pump? But as I say, air from the breather does not confirm this??

1340evo

Okay, so a 75 mile run and this is what I collected. I put it in a wine bottle screw cap BTW so you can judge the amount. 95% water so not what I expected.

The collector did introduce more vibration and took away some HP so its restricting the engine by not letting it breath as much, and guess it may put more out if flow was improved.

On a bottom breather with lets say 15" of pipe, can you just put it to ground as it does suck as well as blow?

Coming around to JW113's thinking if it can be done without issue.....

.

rigidthumper

I always used 18" of tubing, but I'm sure the EPA says we can't do that here any longer...
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

kd

IIRC you are chain drive?  End the hose close to and above the transmission sprocket,  If it sheds a drip, your chain and sprockets will thank you but not your passenger if you don't have a chain guard.  With a chain guard you're golden.
KD

1340evo

yes, its chain so I could do that, but it's mostly water so do you want to?

1340evo

so I've changed sides for now, about 15" tube, end cut at 45 deg so it wont venturi, and a filter over the top. At least its on the oily side of the bike now where the chain is. Its quite a way our so will see if it gets on the rear tyre or not over time. Just on a clip I made so easy to remove / clean as required.

I'm going to investigate duckbill valves also see if they work ;)

.