114 Cam Advice

[Propflux01]

2020 Ultra. 114, wet head. Am considering a cam change. Reading up as much as possible about it. In an earlier life, I changed cams (to Andrews 48) in an '09 UC and went 103. Loved the way it responded torque-wise but absolutely hated the valvetrain noise. That being said, My Valvetrain is very quiet, Id like to keep it quiet, but I want to use a torquer cam, riding in the 2000 to 4000 range (most cruising between 2-3k, 60-80 MPH). Very sparsely would I be carrying it out to 6K, unless just playing or wild hair up my end. Exhaust is currently decat stock head pipe, with V&H Hi Output 4.5 with the DB neutering inserts. Not looking for 'numbers', looking for hard pull and no issues passing cars on two lane roads, minimum valve train noise, both one and two up (mostly one), Tuning would be provided by a PV4. This of which, brought me to these two cams:
Woods 22x
Zippers RS468.

Pros an cons of each:
Woods 22x
Pros: Torque monster, right where I need it, off idle to about (a realistic) 4500.
Cons: Fast and steep ramps. Harder on valvetrain, open for more noise.

Zippers RS 468
Pros: Torque monster, slightly more to the right of the woods. More noticeable power at the 80MPH than the 60mph. Slightly easier on valve train.
Cons: Idles like a dragster. Harder to tune in general. Apparently needs a warm engine to operate better.

Other items that got me wondering is lifter bores. I read there is a wider tolerance on the bores and I'll be lucky to get a full set that fits correctly (not too loose, not too tight) as it is supposed to. Lifters themselves, WFO Larry, Woods Alpha, or S&S?

Cam plate: Some say replace, Some say gotta go S&S plate and pump (and that huge price tag), others say press on with pride using the old one (4500 miles on bike BTW), other say replace with stock anyhow, not to reuse old one.

Oil pump: Should be oK using a 2020 model? So far I've seen no issues with oil on this bike. Bought it used with 2300 miles on it in May.

Push Rods: use Stock and open the boxes? Go adjustable? And with that, SE, S&S, Fuel Moto, ETC?)

Sprockets: I read lower sprocket on almost all bikes are sloppy as sin. Replace with fueling or leave it be?

Anything else I might have left out concern-wise? Any other choices? (No, not looking at SE torque cam, as It seems I can get better performance going aftermarket). I am doing this myself and consider my abilities above average. Meaning, i do almost all my own maintenance, I've done twin cam cam changes, etc, so not scared to dive in, so to speak, just tryin to get the best info on the M8 before I tear into it.

Thanx for any advice in advance.

[m1marty]

Woods 22x: tunes easy, hits hard. Wasnt any noisier than stock in a cross sample of one.

RS468: done a few for customers. Not my 1st choice. Wasnt terrible to tune, not the easiest. Exhaust played a big part in tuning and overall tq under the curve.

My "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480. Used them a ton and everyone is happy. Tunes easy, bikes accelerate great.

Cam plate/pump: if yours is the latest design that came out in 20- its plenty fine. Check sprocket fit. Replace lifter cuffs (be very very careful removing cuff bolt. Heat is your friend here) Use adjustables. The price MORE than makes up for not having to pull boxes and associated lines and such.

Two other areas worth mentioning: injectors and intake. 114s with cams and good exhaust can tax the stock injectors pretty hard. Not uncommon to see 90%+ duty cycle. A set of 5.5/6.2s aren't very spendy. The factory plastic intakes suck. Prone to cracking/leaking as well. The SE aluminum intake provides better flow (worth a couple/couple) and negates the cracking concerns. Also priced well.

[Propflux01]

My "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480

Are you sure you don't mean the CR460? I thought the 480 was alittle more to the right of my scenario?

Also, are these rebranded Andrews Grinds?

[Ohio HD]

Cycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo....     

[Propflux01]

Cycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo....     

Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.

[Ohio HD]

Cycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo....     

Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.

Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them. 

I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.

[Propflux01]

Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them. 

I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.

I saw a chart that showed the specs for both the 460 and 480, seems the 480 has quite a bit more duration than the 460 on the exhaust side. If it is a newer version, I am also surprised Fuel Moto didn't use it instead of the 460 in their 114 cam shootout.
Seems I cant put an image from my computer in.

CR460: OPEN  CLOSE  LIFT   DURATION
        in       6    20       .460      206
         ex    46    0         .440      226

CR480: OPEN CLOSE LIFT   DURATION
          in    9    17       .480     206
         ex    52   18       .470     250

That's quite a difference in numbers. I wonder how the performance differs. I can see the idle should be way more lopey on the 480

[Ohio HD]

I'd trust m1marty's opinion. As well the manufacturer says it makes power from 2,000 to 5,000.


Cycle Rama CR480

[NHBagger]

Take a look at the Sheffer Performance website or on facebook.
Lots of dyno run examples.

[Propflux01]

Looks like its the 480. Thanks for the replies.

[m1marty]

My "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480

Are you sure you don't mean the CR460? I thought the 480 was alittle more to the right of my scenario?

Also, are these rebranded Andrews Grinds?

I'm sure I meant the 480. There are quite a few examples thereof in the dyno section. The first one I came across (and a fantastic representation of what I'm speaking of), is Deyes.
Good selection of parts and a great tuner making them work. Up to you if something like this is adequate for your needs.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,115589.0.html

[Oclaf]

Throw in my .02, if you cant honestly say the 114 makes that 103 seem like a bus, then it dont matter what cam you go with, that motor is fine for the range you describe riding in. Dont waste time, funds and possibly making things worse by opening up the motor, spend it on jewelry for the bike or a ride as in gas, lodging, food. Ride the bike.

FWIW, my 2020 RGS, dreaded stock config, i pass two up without downshifting easy...maybe i am lucky?

[Sunny Jim]

Cycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo....     

Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.

Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them. 

I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.

I believe so. The CR460 was a great cam. Nice idle and easy to tune.

[Sunny Jim]

Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them. 


I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.

I saw a chart that showed the specs for both the 460 and 480, seems the 480 has quite a bit more duration than the 460 on the exhaust side. If it is a newer version, I am also surprised Fuel Moto didn't use it instead of the 460 in their 114 cam shootout.
Seems I cant put an image from my computer in.

CR460: OPEN  CLOSE  LIFT   DURATION
        in       6    20       .460      206
         ex    46    0         .440      226

CR480: OPEN CLOSE LIFT   DURATION
          in    9    17       .480     206
         ex    52   18       .470     250

That's quite a difference in numbers. I wonder how the performance differs. I can see the idle should be way more lopey on the 480

480 comes on earlier.
460 is smoother and is no slouch!!!

[Propflux01]

Throw in my .02, if you cant honestly say the 114 makes that 103 seem like a bus, then it dont matter what cam you go with, that motor is fine for the range you describe riding in. Dont waste time, funds and possibly making things worse by opening up the motor, spend it on jewelry for the bike or a ride as in gas, lodging, food. Ride the bike.

FWIW, my 2020 RGS, dreaded stock config, i pass two up without downshifting easy...maybe i am lucky?

Well, my 103 had an Andrews 48 in it, and was a torque monster in its own right. My 88, yeah, that was a bus. I look at it this way, I'll install the 480. If its not what I think it should be, I'll remove it, and reinstall the stock cam, and tune. Even then, I'll have upgraded lifters and cam bearing for the long haul.

[Ohio HD]

Well, my 103 had an Andrews 48 in it, and was a torque monster in its own right. My 88, yeah, that was a bus. I look at it this way, I'll install the 480. If its not what I think it should be, I'll remove it, and reinstall the stock cam, and tune. Even then, I'll have upgraded lifters and cam bearing for the long haul.

Aside from what m1marty had to say about the CR-480 being a good upgrade, here from our dyno section is one by Joe Lyons. Pretty sure this will walk all over a stock motor.

2020, 114'', FLHRS, CR480, V&H PROPIPE by Joe Lyons










This is a dyno run of a stock 114. Not bad, but a stage 2 setup adds a lot of get up and go to the 114 motor.

2018 Harley-Davidson Softail Fat Bob 114 Dyno

[boooby1744]

My buddy is going in a different direction. SE slip ons, a real tune and an Andrews 31 tooth pulley. He says he never goes over 4000 revs cause he's old.

[FLSTFIDave]

I like the CR-480 for a bolt in cam on the 114 or 117 motors.  Works very well.  Look at all of what Darren at Shaffer has done with that cam. 

[rdc401]

2020 Ultra. 114, wet head. Am considering a cam change. Reading up as much as possible about it. In an earlier life, I changed cams (to Andrews 48) in an '09 UC and went 103. Loved the way it responded torque-wise but absolutely hated the valvetrain noise. That being said, My Valvetrain is very quiet, Id like to keep it quiet, but I want to use a torquer cam, riding in the 2000 to 4000 range (most cruising between 2-3k, 60-80 MPH). Very sparsely would I be carrying it out to 6K, unless just playing or wild hair up my end. Exhaust is currently decat stock head pipe, with V&H Hi Output 4.5 with the DB neutering inserts. Not looking for 'numbers', looking for hard pull and no issues passing cars on two lane roads, minimum valve train noise, both one and two up (mostly one), Tuning would be provided by a PV4. This of which, brought me to these two cams:
Woods 22x
Zippers RS468.

Pros an cons of each:
Woods 22x
Pros: Torque monster, right where I need it, off idle to about (a realistic) 4500.
Cons: Fast and steep ramps. Harder on valvetrain, open for more noise.

Zippers RS 468
Pros: Torque monster, slightly more to the right of the woods. More noticeable power at the 80MPH than the 60mph. Slightly easier on valve train.
Cons: Idles like a dragster. Harder to tune in general. Apparently needs a warm engine to operate better.

Other items that got me wondering is lifter bores. I read there is a wider tolerance on the bores and I'll be lucky to get a full set that fits correctly (not too loose, not too tight) as it is supposed to. Lifters themselves, WFO Larry, Woods Alpha, or S&S?

Cam plate: Some say replace, Some say gotta go S&S plate and pump (and that huge price tag), others say press on with pride using the old one (4500 miles on bike BTW), other say replace with stock anyhow, not to reuse old one.

Oil pump: Should be oK using a 2020 model? So far I've seen no issues with oil on this bike. Bought it used with 2300 miles on it in May.

Push Rods: use Stock and open the boxes? Go adjustable? And with that, SE, S&S, Fuel Moto, ETC?)

Sprockets: I read lower sprocket on almost all bikes are sloppy as sin. Replace with fueling or leave it be?

Anything else I might have left out concern-wise? Any other choices? (No, not looking at SE torque cam, as It seems I can get better performance going aftermarket). I am doing this myself and consider my abilities above average. Meaning, i do almost all my own maintenance, I've done twin cam cam changes, etc, so not scared to dive in, so to speak, just tryin to get the best info on the M8 before I tear into it.

Thanx for any advice in advance.

I've had both same bike 22x and 468 prefer the 468.
 22x has a little more down low,I just prefer the 468,it just pull harder through the whole rpm range.
But to be honest it's just splitting hairs,all the cams that have been Mentioned in this thread will put a smile on your face.

[Propflux01]

Well, the 480 seems to be a bust....

I installed it and the PV tune from the Fuel Moto. 1st run was on the stock decatted header, with V&H Hi-Output 4.5 slip-ons neutered with DB reducers, as it was before the cam change (which ran pretty ok with stock cam, and gave stock power). Very noticeable "flat spot" from 2K to 3K. When I say flat, I mean going 50 MPH in 4th or 5th  and giving it throttle, it struggles to make it to 3K and then takes off like a rocket. Sounds like the old days of an over-cammed V8 engine, Lotsa noise, mediocre acceleration, then take off. Definitely not in my RPM of riding a big bagger. Not really keen on going 60-70 in fourth at 3K+ just to keep the power up.

Next up, installed an S&S 2 into 1 Sidewinder pipe. No change in the way it runs, in fact, almost seemed a bit worse. Rode the same way neutered with DB reducers or with them removed. Loved the way it ran above 3K, but that's not where I ride (unless I'm on the highway, of course). Seems more of a mid range cam for a bagger, or probably work much better in a lighter bike, I don't know. So now what to do....? My first thought is to go back down to a real "torque cam" like the S&S 465, RS468, Andrews 460, or heck, even as desperate as the SE447. Now, yes, I know it needs a dyno tune and all that to get peak performance, but I cant see the canned tune from Fuel Moto I got being that much off. The 480 cam doesn't seem to suit the needs of my riding, which is 90% in the 2k to 3.5K general 2-lane and 4-lane cruising, and up to 4.5-5K when getting squirrely on the freeway or something. Cam was double checked for timing, not off a tooth or anything, Starts and runs ok. idles like dragster, of course.
So now that leaves me alittle stumped here on what to do. Or rather, which direction I should go. Any of the aforementioned cams? Someone mentioned its my exhaust. Well, I figure if it was, why on both a 2-1-2 and a 2-1? Neutered or not, same response. NO decel popping or black smoke out the back, no fuel smell. Just really doggy and has to catch up to itself before taking off. Any suggestions welcomed..

[harpwrench]

Kinda weird, the 114's with the 480 in the dyno section don't look to be weak below 3k. Might just need some tuning. Have you done any data collection and VE adjustments, or just flashed a starter map?

[Propflux01]

So far just flashed a map. Honestly, I'm not much at tweaking maps, and I don't think my PV4 will allow it anyhow. I just expected the tune to at least perform better than this, if the tune is the issue. I have had several tunes from FM for various bikes and conditions, none has ever run like this. I am stumped on that part.

[03wglide]

Before changing cams again, I would contact FM and give them your symptoms. They have great customer service. Probably have you run a data log to submit and analyze. It took them a few tries to get rid of a reoccurring rich cylinder code but now it runs great/strong with a S&S 475 cam in my '18 RGS.

I was originally leaning toward the CR480 but at the time they didn't have much experience with it.

[Hossamania]

Agreed, don't give up on the cam yet without working on the tune. It may even involve a dyno run or two to dial it in. Cheaper than swapping the cam out.

[Deye76]

Agree with Hoss. I wouldn't blame any parts when the tune (canned map) is suspect. Since my first injected bike in 2004, and 3 more following, I have learned the value of a tune only achieved by hours on the dyno by someone who is looking to give the customer a good running machine in all throttle positions.