114 Cam Advice

[Hossamania]

Not necessarily the same variety of apples to apples, but a discussion along the same lines. How do you know, until you know?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103837.0/all.html#msg1227801

[Deye76]

68 HP with a stage 1, 103".
No  afr on that graph..........................  "but it didn't cough or stall", LMAO.

[Propflux01]

You guys really think the tune is that far off? Bad thing is I needed a drivable tune for a bit, as the closest two tuners from me are 125 and 173 miles from me. That, and no Saturdays open kinda makes it harder to get to one.

[Hossamania]

With your description of how flat it is until 3000 rpm and then takes off like a rocket, that says that something is not right. Maybe a vacuum leak, maybe something else not tune related. It might not rip to 3000 rpm, but it should not be flat.
A call to Jaime would be a good start.

[Propflux01]

With your description of how flat it is until 3000 rpm and then takes off like a rocket, that says that something is not right. Maybe a vacuum leak, maybe something else not tune related. It might not rip to 3000 rpm, but it should not be flat.
A call to Jaime would be a good start.

Well, that is definitely gonna be a start. I pretty much have all my mod purchases from them, and this cam is supposed to, as FM puts it, "they provide excellent low and midrange performance" I just don't see that happening here. If I did end up changing cams, seems my choices for my type of riding, would limit me to
Andrews 460
S&S 465
Zippers RS468
Woods 22x
Woods 22XD (don't really like the idea of this one, as I know the ramps are very steep and not as valvetrain friendly)

[harpwrench]

Just for kicks you might check to make sure the O2 sensor connectors aren't swapped

[Propflux01]

Just for kicks you might check to make sure the O2 sensor connectors aren't swapped

Connectors are White to white and black to black, Cant really screw it up, at least not on this one. 

[harpwrench]

Can still be screwed up, make sure the sensor with the black connector is in the rear pipe

[Propflux01]

Can still be screwed up, make sure the sensor with the black connector is in the rear pipe

It is. Ones like 24" long, the other is only about 15 inches. Only fits one way.

[kd]

Ah ha,  O2 sensors for dummies. 

[DTTJGlide]

I'm the person who replied on the other forum about your exhaust, that was before you did all the explaining of what you already have done. I still think that the cam isn't the problem & if you hadn't said you had double checked the cam timing that would have been my next guess. As has been suggested give Jamie a call & see what he can come up with before you change cams again. I have a 107 with a S&S 475 & although it isn't a stump puller down low it still pulls smoothly from 1800 up & quite well from 2500 up, the 480 is supposed to be better down low than the 475, so I still don't think the cam is your main problem as that cam is said to be one of the best all around cams out there, probably why you bought it.

[Propflux01]

I'm the person who replied on the other forum about your exhaust, that was before you did all the explaining of what you already have done. I still think that the cam isn't the problem & if you hadn't said you had double checked the cam timing that would have been my next guess. As has been suggested give Jamie a call & see what he can come up with before you change cams again. I have a 107 with a S&S 475 & although it isn't a stump puller down low it still pulls smoothly from 1800 up & quite well from 2500 up, the 480 is supposed to be better down low than the 475, so I still don't think the cam is your main problem as that cam is said to be one of the best all around cams out there, probably why you bought it.

Thank you for replying here, as that thread pretty much died out. I wouldn't have an issue with it with the numbers you describe, 1800 then feeling it quite well at 2500. That is right in my range. I don't know what they are gonna say, I just get the feeling its gonna be something along the lines of "we gave a tune, nothing else we can do" type of thing. And you are correct. I did not want to go with the woods 22xD because I know what the steep ramps will eventually do to lifter bores and valvetrain, and this cam is hailed by many to be the best all around'er out there, and according to FM site, "Designed as a bolt in for M8 engines with stock compression, low-mid  power in 107, 114, 117 motors, Works well with stock springs". Hence my being stumped on this.

[Hossamania]

Fuel Moto is very responsive to tune questions and troubleshooting. Give them a chance.
As has been said, it's doubtful that the cam is the problem. It should at the very least be as good as the stock cam in those lower rpm, and in practice better than stock.

[03wglide]

Fuel Moto is very responsive to tune questions and troubleshooting. Give them a chance.
As has been said, it's doubtful that the cam is the problem. It should at the very least be as good as the stock cam in those lower rpm, and in practice better than stock.

100% agree, without FM having the bike in front of them, a canned map may not always work as planned. Like I mentioned prior, it may take them a few times to get it squared away. A data log will more than likely be needed to see whats going on, similar to looking at dyno data but doing it remotely. Not every motor set-up(exhaust, intake, etc) is the same and trying to build a map that covers all combinations has to be tough. Be patient with them, they really do make an effort to remedy your problem. On my issue it was a combination of multiple tweaks of they're canned 475 map then ultimately working from the oem stock map to get it dialed it. But in the end they got it right.

I could of changed cams and started the process all over and hoped another canned cam map worked like your saying now. It makes more sense to work on the current cam map than replace parts costing time/labor. IMO, just because one has a dyno doesn't make them good at the tuning process and may leave power on the table. It takes time and experience to refine the skill. So going local may not be the answer to get what you payed for. A local tuner with a good reputation of getting the most out of a motor is another story.

[Don D]

Eyes are on the cam with no mention of the pipe. With low overlap (stock cam) it doesn't matter much but as overlap is added pipe is a heavy influence on the torque curve shape.

[Propflux01]

Eyes are on the cam with no mention of the pipe. With low overlap (stock cam) it doesn't matter much but as overlap is added pipe is a heavy influence on the torque curve shape.

Well, as I said before, not saying it isn't the pipes, but it was ran originally with stock header, V&H high output slip ons with DB reducers. A pretty common setup. I then changed it to an S&S Sidewinder 2-1 with db reducer also. Runs the same way. Even when reducers are removed. I can't see (again, no expert and not saying it can't)the same performance on 2 separate pipes, especially with a 2-1, which as I understand, are more torque oriented anyhow. :?:

[Propflux01]

Well, just got off the phone with FM. The guy I talked to said that the exhaust on the 2-1 should have made some difference in it, and that they had ran this cam before with peak torque numbers as low as 3k, (which would make me happy). He stated to do a compression test to see if timing was off. I asked if I could just take the cam cover back off and triple check and he said it wouldn't matter, there are other things involved. He then stated if the compression numbers are ok, then we go looking towards exhaust, but reiterated the exhaust really shouldn't be that much an issue, considering I've ran two different ones with literally no change in performance. So I have to get a comp tester, get the numbers, send them to him, and go from there.
Now I don't doubt this man's intelligence at all, he says he's been doing this for 20-plus years. But other than cam timing dots being off, what other mechanical means would allow the camshaft to be off time? I mean the splines only line up one way, and with the tensioner installed the dots line up just fine right now. Is there really any way to time it, say, off one tooth?  Got me wondering about that now.... 

[harpwrench]

Maybe you could take a hacksaw to the end of the db reducer insert to make an adjustable flap to bend down like a spoon baffle? Then drill holes in the tube for exhaust to go around and get out. Not sure what it looks like. For how you describe your riding style I think an S&S 465 would work better if swapping cam. Or whatever similar cam that Jamie has actually tuned with that pipe, if you have to use a canned tune.

[Ohio HD]

This topic has been moved to The Shed.

Please only upload your own personal images to the HTT website. Otherwise post a link.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=119092.0

[Propflux01]

Ok, didn't know. I thought the first one was removed because I screwed something up uploading and posting it, that why the second post was made. My apologies.

[Ohio HD]

No problem. You can always just post a link to the image you want to discuss. Like below. It's not uploaded, rather linked to the S&S website.

[harpwrench]

What I'm describing is something along the lines of what some VH pro pipes have

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MrUAAOSwOMlfO-sI/s-l300.jpg

[03wglide]

Well, just got off the phone with FM. The guy I talked to said that the exhaust on the 2-1 should have made some difference in it, and that they had ran this cam before with peak torque numbers as low as 3k, (which would make me happy). He stated to do a compression test to see if timing was off. I asked if I could just take the cam cover back off and triple check and he said it wouldn't matter, there are other things involved. He then stated if the compression numbers are ok, then we go looking towards exhaust, but reiterated the exhaust really shouldn't be that much an issue, considering I've ran two different ones with literally no change in performance. So I have to get a comp tester, get the numbers, send them to him, and go from there.
Now I don't doubt this man's intelligence at all, he says he's been doing this for 20-plus years. But other than cam timing dots being off, what other mechanical means would allow the camshaft to be off time? I mean the splines only line up one way, and with the tensioner installed the dots line up just fine right now. Is there really any way to time it, say, off one tooth?  Got me wondering about that now.... 

Who knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.

[Propflux01]

What I'm describing is something along the lines of what some VH pro pipes have

Yes, those are very similar to the ones I'm my V&H pipes.

[Propflux01]

Who knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.

Yeah, I was itching to ninja that pipe back off, pop that cam cover back off and look again at the timing marks. While I still don't see how they could be screwed up, ya never know, and I gotta wait on the comp tester anyhow..