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Derby Cover Leak

Started by Jim Bronson, September 15, 2022, 04:00:10 PM

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Jim Bronson

I recently replaced the diaphram spring on my 2013 Dyna with a lighter version. I re-installed my VPC and added a full bottle of Spectro primary fluid. I started it up in the garage, and everything looked fine. This morning I noticed a little oil under the derby cover. I replaced the bolts and made sure the torque was 100 in/lb (star pattern). Everything was fine today until I came out of the restaurant. More oil under the derby cover. How can oil leak from around a derby cover with a new gasket? The new bolts are hex and slightly shorter than the originals. Even if I added too much oil, how could it sneak past the new gasket?

I should add that it is impossible to see past the VPC and see the oil level relative to the bottom of the clutch. To deepen the mystery, it is leaking from the lowest point of the cover and nowhere near a bolt head. Looks like it will be going back on the lift today. Think a good thought for me.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Hossamania

Are you sure it's not the plug leaking?
Stand it up straight so you know the fluid is not against the cover, leave it sit overnight, if no leak, it may be the gasket, if it still leaks, it is not the derby cover gasket.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Jim Bronson

I did as you suggested Hoss. Stand by for more news tomorrow. I forgot to mention there's a narrow stream of oil from the bottom of the cover down to the bottom of the outer primary cover. It seems that it is conclusive to be a derby leak.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Fugawee

If and when You should take the Derby Cover off, You may want to place it on a known good flat surface to see if it is bowed or warped from maybe previous over tightening.
Another thought is to maybe try and reduce the amount of Primary Fluid by 2 oz's or so and see if the problem goes away.  I know some that only use approx. 26 oz's in there with no performance problems.
I also have known those that use both the large Orange "O" Ring style gasket with the large Full Round gasket over that.

Rockout Rocker Products

You're playing derby roulette using a torque wrench on the screws.   :pop:

 
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

FLDavetrain

Did you check if it's the inner primary seal? That leak can travel to bottom derby in a narrow stream as you say
currently 510ci on tap

Jim Bronson

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 15, 2022, 05:25:00 PMYou're playing derby roulette using a torque wrench on the screws.   :pop:

 
I've been doing it per the SM for 15 years and 4 bikes, and I've never seen this problem.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Jim Bronson

Quote from: FLDavetrain on September 15, 2022, 05:38:01 PMDid you check if it's the inner primary seal? That leak can travel to bottom derby in a narrow stream as you say
I don't think oil flows uphill even in CA. When I installed the cover, the level was way down near where it should be, and there were no leaks. I couldn't see the exact level due to the VPC. Tomorrow I'll try to find my bore scope and take a look. Also, I didn't notice any clutch slipping going through the gears.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Jim, your running a flat derby gasket, and not the OEM seal?

kd

It has to be a gasket surface issue such as dimpled at the stud holes from squeezed gaskets.  The hot oil will sit on the inner primary lip where the bottom of the derby cover matches up.  It can seep out from there with the right conditions.  I would check the cover on a glass plate with a piece of fine grit paper.  If it only dresses the area around the derby screw holes you have the culprit.  Your choices will be dress it down all across and true or replace it. 
KD

Jim Bronson

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 15, 2022, 07:05:26 PMJim, your running a flat derby gasket, and not the OEM seal?
It's the flat type minus the center portion and with beads of sealant along the outer edges.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Jim Bronson

Quote from: kd on September 15, 2022, 07:52:26 PMIt has to be a gasket surface issue such as dimpled at the stud holes from squeezed gaskets.  The hot oil will sit on the inner primary lip where the bottom of the derby cover matches up.  It can seep out from there with the right conditions.  I would check the cover on a glass plate with a piece of fine grit paper.  If it only dresses the area around the derby screw holes you have the culprit.  Your choices will be dress it down all across and true or replace it. 
Very good idea KD. I never had this problem  before with the same cover, so I'm leaning toward the gasket. I can see how it would leak for a while and then stop per your description. I'll pull it apart tomorrow morning and hopefully find the problem. Thanks.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 15, 2022, 07:54:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 15, 2022, 07:05:26 PMJim, your running a flat derby gasket, and not the OEM seal?
It's the flat type minus the center portion and with beads of sealant along the outer edges.

I'd put the bead in the inside towards the inner primary. Also make sure you don't let the outside edge between the cover and primary opening.

Fugawee

I believe that the Flat Beaded Type of Gasket states on it to have the Beaded Side towards Clutch.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 15, 2022, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 15, 2022, 05:25:00 PMYou're playing derby roulette using a torque wrench on the screws.   :pop:

 
I've been doing it per the SM for 15 years and 4 bikes, and I've never seen this problem.

I always use a torque wrench on the derby and primary fasteners.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Fugawee on September 15, 2022, 08:35:25 PMI believe that the Flat Beaded Type of Gasket states on it to have the Beaded Side towards Clutch.

I think most do say clutch side.




Jim Bronson

Mine has beading on both sides, and the center is cut out. I can't use the one pictured because it interferes with the VPC. So I either have to cut out the center or buy one with the center already cut out. I have a spare if I need it.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Rockout Rocker Products

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 16, 2022, 06:16:48 AM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 15, 2022, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 15, 2022, 05:25:00 PMYou're playing derby roulette using a torque wrench on the screws.   :pop:

 
I've been doing it per the SM for 15 years and 4 bikes, and I've never seen this problem.

I always use a torque wrench on the derby and primary fasteners.

 Every post I read about broken derby cover screws invariably has..."I used a torque wrench..."

 You do you.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Jim Bronson

I never set the wrench to the top value in the range. I set it to max minus 10-20%. I don't know what setting all those other guys are using, but I'd bet they're setting them to max plus 10-20% "just to make sure." Also if they use replacement bolts made from a softer material, all bets are off.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 16, 2022, 05:32:26 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 16, 2022, 06:16:48 AM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 15, 2022, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on September 15, 2022, 05:25:00 PMYou're playing derby roulette using a torque wrench on the screws.  :pop:

 
I've been doing it per the SM for 15 years and 4 bikes, and I've never seen this problem.

I always use a torque wrench on the derby and primary fasteners.

 Every post I read about broken derby cover screws invariably has..."I used a torque wrench..."

 You do you.

:pop:   


Hossamania

Luckily broken (or rounded) derby cover screws are generally pretty easy to remove. Don't ask me how I know.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

millerm64

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 15, 2022, 04:00:10 PMI recently replaced the diaphram spring on my 2013 Dyna with a lighter version. I re-installed my VPC and added a full bottle of Spectro primary fluid. I started it up in the garage, and everything looked fine. This morning I noticed a little oil under the derby cover. I replaced the bolts and made sure the torque was 100 in/lb (star pattern). Everything was fine today until I came out of the restaurant. More oil under the derby cover. How can oil leak from around a derby cover with a new gasket? The new bolts are hex and slightly shorter than the originals. Even if I added too much oil, how could it sneak past the new gasket?

I should add that it is impossible to see past the VPC and see the oil level relative to the bottom of the clutch. To deepen the mystery, it is leaking from the lowest point of the cover and nowhere near a bolt head. Looks like it will be going back on the lift today. Think a good thought for me.
...........
If it did not leak before I would retrace my steps. First drain all of the fluid out into something you can measure the amount of oil.

Second there can be issues with the VPC where it will hit the derby cover. In a pinch I would reinstall the old spring you were using and check them for differences, thickness ect. Check the derby cover itself while it is off to be sure it is perfectly flat and not damaged.

Also check around the derby screw holes in the primary cover to make sure there isn't a crack (ouch).

It you haven't found the issue yet I would put it back together with the diaphragm that was in it before it leaked and add only 25 ounces of primary fluid. That is more than enough to take it for a good ride. If the leak stopped you could reinstall the lighter spring and try again. There does not seem to be a set amount of primary fluid from bike to bike. Anywhere from 26 to 28 ounces of fluid should be enough for a full fill.

Good Luck

mrmike

No more "O" rings for the cover? My bike is an 03 so that's what I've always used.

Mike
I'm not leaving til I have a good time

Jim Bronson

Thanks for the hints. After spending a relaxing afternoon in the ER, I'll get back to it tomorrow.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

smoserx1

September 17, 2022, 06:47:39 PM #24 Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 06:56:34 PM by smoserx1
QuoteNo more "O" rings for the cover? My bike is an 03 so that's what I've always used.

https://www.denniskirk.com/genuine-james/derby-cover-seal-25416-99.ph26241.prd/H26241.sku?cid=17923638713&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi42p0Jud-gIVlIXICh1SpwIREAYYASABEgIrCfD_BwE

If you use this type seal you need to make sure your primary has a groove for it.  I have seen some pics of primaries that do not appear to have the groove, and I believe you need the disk gasket in that case.

Hossamania

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 17, 2022, 06:30:15 PMThanks for the hints. After spending a relaxing afternoon in the ER, I'll get back to it tomorrow.

So, you're just going to drop the ER thing and walk away with no explanation?
Yer killing me Smalls!
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Ohio HD

You have to use the gasket regardless with many custom derby covers.

Jim Bronson

Remember - you asked. I've been having serious lower abdominal pain. The doc ran numerous tests and a CT scan from my chin to my pelvis, and he couldn't find the cause. Everything that could be causing it is normal. I'm guessing it is all in my mind, where the scan didn't reach. He did find a small infection on a lung lobe that was causing my cough. It seems that I have mild pneumonia. The antibiotics he prescribed should clear it up. I'll be so glad to get rid of this nasty cough. I was vaccinated against pneumonia, but I got it anyway, albeit a minor case. And now life goes on in the People's Republic.

More later on this same network --••• •••--
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Jim Bronson

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 17, 2022, 07:24:33 PMYou have to use the gasket regardless with many custom derby covers.
Mine is a NOS HD version without a groove for the rubber o-ring.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 17, 2022, 08:38:34 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 17, 2022, 07:24:33 PMYou have to use the gasket regardless with many custom derby covers.
Mine is a NOS HD version without a groove for the rubber o-ring.

Yes, it's custom to that year bike. 2013 Dyna's used the o-ring from the factory with a different cover.

motorhogman

Quote from: mrmike on September 17, 2022, 08:15:00 AMNo more "O" rings for the cover? My bike is an 03 so that's what I've always used.

Mike

The o-ring is all I have ever used on my 01 FLHT. I have reused the same one several times and never a leak. And yes, I always use a torque wrench.
where's the points and condenser ?<br />Tom / aka motor

Jim Bronson

Can anyone spot the problem? It's kinda hard to see.  :angry: Bore scope shows the level correct.

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Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Looks like the through holes are puckered inward.

Coff 06

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 18, 2022, 11:19:36 AMLooks like the through holes are puckered inward.




I was thinking that same thing  :up:      Coff 06
06 FX Springer, 98",11/1,9B+4*,HPI 55/58 /5.3inj,HDSP Pro Street heads,123/118

FXDBI

You need to take a stone clean that surface flat or some emery cloth on a piece of glass. A surface must be both flat and clean. Looks like its been over torqued a few times.   Bob

Ohio HD

Quote from: FXDBI on September 18, 2022, 11:32:22 AMYou need to take a stone clean that surface flat or some emery cloth on a piece of glass. A surface must be both flat and clean. Looks like its been over torqued a few times.   Bob

Or the wrong fasteners for that cover. They may need a larger head, or use washers.

Jim Bronson

Nope, not over-torqued ever ever (unless the SM is wrong). I'll reinstall the original with the rubber 0-ring. It isn't as pretty, but it won't leak.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

FXDBI

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 18, 2022, 12:41:50 PMNope, not over-torqued ever ever (unless the SM is wrong). I'll reinstall the original with the rubber 0-ring. It isn't as pretty, but it won't leak.

What do you use for a 1/4 in torque wrench?  What are you using for bolts? I have had a flat cover and that gasket for 15 years now re-used it many times now, never a leak.  :scratch:   Bob

Fugawee

September 18, 2022, 12:58:21 PM #38 Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 02:17:01 PM by Fugawee
Whether You decide to repair Your existing Derby Cover or replace it...these may add a bit of extra Insurance against leaks, even though not specifically called for on Your Bike.

HD Part #31433-84A, which is a Seal.  HD Calls it Washer, Nylon nowadays.  It is a Metal Washer with a Rubber Seal on the Inside Diameter, that goes between the Derby Cover Screws and the Cover in addition to the Derby Cover Gasket.  These were standard equipment installed and required on many of the 90's EVO Derby and Inspection Covers. I still use them on a 94' FLH and had them on a 98' FXDWG when I owned it. Go on Ebay and type this in...Harley Part # 31433-84A, and You will see what I'm talking about.
Could possibly be a cheap fix.  Good Luck with the Bike, and Your Health Issue.

Also...those Seals go for about 2 bucks a piece depending on where You are buying.  Not 7 bucks a piece like someone is selling for on Ebay.

FSG


Fugawee

After looking at the Original Picture of the Derby Cover a few times...It almost looks to Me that there is a Dowel or Alignment Sleeve on the hole that is around 2 O'clock.  I seriously doubt that.  It could be the way My old eyes are seeing it though, but I think it is truly puckered.
I think that I would be in the Market for a new Derby Cover instead of trying to straighten all that out.  It'll make a good small parts, or cleaning tray.
But to each, their own.

Jim Bronson

I reinstalled the original with the rubber O-ring. I used 95 in/lb. with my usual 1/4" drive wrench. No time to ride today. I see HD is selling the same one that leaked except with a rubber ring. Hmmmmm... The price is ouchie though.

Thanks to all who replied. The more the merrier.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

kd

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 18, 2022, 05:47:01 PMI reinstalled the original with the rubber O-ring. I used 95 in/lb. with my usual 1/4" drive wrench. No time to ride today. I see HD is selling the same one that leaked except with a rubber ring. Hmmmmm... The price is ouchie though.

Thanks to all who replied. The more the merrier.


Well those holes (and fasteners maybe) are definitely the problem. Don't go thinking a new style of gasket will  fix this properly. You'll be wasting time and money.

Out of interest, do you have a pic of the fasteners that show the style of head underneath and a pic of the outer derby cover showing the style of fastener hole?  I'm wondering if the screws are tapered head and the cover is designed for flat head.

You probably still have the option from back in post #10 but may need different screws to prevent future dimpling.  Of course replacing both with all proper parts is an option too.
KD

Jim Bronson

Everything is back to OEM now, including the fasteners that were removed with the stock cover. I'm glad I saved everything. I'll shoot photos of the fasteners that I used with the new replacement cover. I did a quick compare before I buttoned it up, and it seems the originals are better quality than the replacements that were furnished with the new cover. Stand by for more.....
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Jim Bronson

20 miles today on the original cover and screws with no leaks.

Example screw/washer from cover/gasket that leaked.

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Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 19, 2022, 05:01:56 PM20 miles today on the original cover and screws with no leaks.

Example screw/washer from cover/gasket that leaked.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

What do they look like when inserted into the cover? Can't tell anything from the just the fastener.

Coyote

Don't think the screws were the problem.

kd

September 19, 2022, 05:23:58 PM #47 Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 06:42:24 PM by kd
Quote from: Coyote on September 19, 2022, 05:10:49 PMDon't think the screws were the problem.

 :agree: If those are the same screws and washers they were not the problem.  The dimpled fastener holes however would not allow the cover to seat properly on the gasket.  It looks like a tapered screw had been used and flared the hole.  Any witness marks on the leaking cover's holes? :nix:
KD

Ohio HD

September 19, 2022, 05:30:56 PM #48 Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 05:44:30 PM by Ohio HD
I'm thinking the counterbore in the cover's holes is too large for the fasteners. Caused the pucker due to the gap left behind the cover by the gasket. And or the gasket's holes are too large.

The OEM gasket has small holes, and two or tree of them are small enough to thread the screws into to hold the gasket in place.

Added: And the through holes may be oversized in the cover allowing the fastener to pull through.

Coyote


Jim Bronson

Quote from: Coyote on September 19, 2022, 05:56:20 PMThe cover looked awful.
The holes in the cover look so terrible that it can't be reused unless the flared areas around the bolts are dressed with a Dremel. Somehow the cover was over-torqued by someone (not me), and then when I removed and re-installed it after installing the new spring, it was subjected to a "cookie cutter" effect by the sharp flared edges of the holes. It took less than 100 in/lb to do the job. I'm sure you saw the photo of the cover and the pieces of the gasket where it fell apart at the hole locations.

As someone previously mentioned, it will be necessary to place the cover on a glass plate and then carefully de-burr the holes to get rid of it all so it lies perfectly flat and can be used with a new gasket.

I'm pretty sure I know who the torque monster is, but I'll let it go. Maybe someday I'll get around to fixing it, and I'll post my success at that time. Till then ...
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

calif phil

I often remove derby and inspection covers like that, I hand them back to the customer and tell them to hang them on a nail in the garage as a decoration. The Live to Ride ~ covers are the worst.

IronButt70

FWIW my cover is a ceramic specialty item. Never leaked a drop in over 90k miles. I do carry the OEM cover in case I somehow manage to break the ceramic one.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Jim Bronson

Quote from: calif phil on September 20, 2022, 06:32:22 AMI often remove derby and inspection covers like that, I hand them back to the customer and tell them to hang them on a nail in the garage as a decoration. The Live to Ride ~ covers are the worst.
I didn't think guys still used those.  :teeth:
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

tomboyjr

 I had one once that leaked all the time no matter what I tried. One day it was on my bench, and I had dropped something on the ground. As my eyes were at the bench level I saw the problem, it was warped. Got a new cover, no more leaks

Jim Bronson

I started getting busy with the Dremel, and I noticed that no amount of de-burring the bolt holes will solve the problem. With the cover lying on the bench, I can see that it is badly warped all the way around. It looks like a big wave washer. I guess that puts this one to bed. I ran with this cover for several months, but I guess the gasket just barely sealed it enough to prevent leaking.
Going down that long, lonesome highway. Gonna live life my way.

david lee

i made my own out of a piece of flat alloy plate