SE 120r gaskets, and other problems

[Hybredhog]

    Not trying source, but besides being 4.062 bore, are the 120r stud placement the same as stock TC or are they their own animal. Got one here for "noise", but looks like base gaskets are seeping already. Its approx 10 yr. old build, but original owner died & there's not much info on whats been done.

[Ohio HD]

They're the same bolt spacing as all other TC motors.

[Hybredhog]

There aren't very many of these things around here, and from some rudimentary searches, I'm trying to find out some leads on what goes wrong with them. bad lifters i.e. to strong of springs? ect.... Its been sitting for a year & not being to agreeable about starting, gas is fresh but fouling plugs, So I have no clue about what tune it has.

[calif phil]

I have had a few 120's with cams, camplate and oil pump damage due to lifter failure. 

[Hybredhog]

Got it started, and a pretty good racket came out of the front exhaust rocker area. In the process of rolling the motor over to unload the cams, Holy chit! it was a chore to turn it over with the rear wheel, just against the valve springs, Front exhaust lifter was skidding & the rollers needles were almost gone, and that lobe is toast. But we caught it semi early, I'm still going to clean the pan & replace the pump. I'm also leaning towards some beehive springs. So without starting a pissin match, What's the lift on the 120r cams (is .658" right?), and some conservative suggestions for a '09 bagger cam in touring mode.

[Ohio HD]

SE266 lift is 0.658".

As the 120r comes out, the compression is around 10.5:1, so if it's still a stock 120r, I'd consider bumping the compression up a little (10.8:1 to 11:1)and maybe run cams like Cycle Rama CR630i or S&S 625. The lift is moderate (in my opinion) and they both give a wide power range. There are lots of cams, many with less lift that will run well. These are the two I would use if I wanted less than 0.658" lift and a wider power range with minimal drama for touring.

[Hybredhog]

   we're not looking at increasing compression, but I am replacing gaskets, I think I saw here people are using tri-bond on the base? I like the S&S 625, I'm running that in my 124, and it is quiet. I'm even considering a S&S 585, we're leaning towards the quiet touring with lower grunt. It has the factory CR's so you could get away with it, and use less spring. I've ran into these types of spring issues with SE, and other "Hi performance" springs, more than not, they just wear chit out faster. I know they're probably just covering their arse, but it's over kill for most folks.

[Ohio HD]

I'm running the S&S 625's in a 124" also.  Very quiet, good power all across the board. I'm at 11.3:1.

[kd]

As a SE 120R crate engine owner I have been watching this thread develop. Ohio and Phil have made good points for which as they say, there are remedies.  Especially if you go into it with a little background knowledge.  You seem to have done some research and are somewhat on track. A member that doesn't post anymore (stokerjlk) was an early 120R user and he had over 45,000 miles (IIRC) daily driver, tourer, and every weekend possible at the track as a winner and probably more by now if still in use.  Mine has in the area of 20,000 and it hits the limiter every time I ride it. They can be  durable if treated to good components, tune and service.

The valve springs are over kill because the MOCO built it as a race engine.  The power band withy the 266 cam (if that's what is still in it) is in the high rpm range where valve control is necessary.  Hence the heavy spring weight. Easily resolved by changing the springs to somethin that still works but not over kill.  This will also add life to the lifters but they must be a wise choice.  The MOCO OEM SE lifters don't seem to be robust enough as Phil indicates. Also remember when you build a big block for power with high lift cams the lifters become a service item with no more than 30,000 mile expected safe life. That means a service interval and change out at that mileage. It's a good time to check runout and cam lobes (maybe oil pump) anyway.

My experience with the 660 lift cam is not as critical as many may think.  Choose a cam to provide what you need for street use and manners as well as power where you want it.  Ohio has suggested a couple of the several good choices out there.  Again, how do you ride and what rpm? I use Tman 660SM cams because they work everywhere including the parking lot.  The engine is more silent than the 103 it replaced. (not the exhaust though  )

My experience is the listed 10.5 compression is actually about 10.3 with everyone I know that has checked one. Don't be afraid of 11:1 range compression.  Just get a good tune. You'll need one anyway. It takes about a +.040 (ish) head cut to get it to 11 ish and will vary when cc'd at the same time to maintain balance. Many have found the pistons around .003 out of the hole as I did.  The base gaskets and head gaskets (.030) are better sourced from Cometic.  Use a slight film of Permatex Aviation cement on the base gaskets, wipe away the residue that squeezes out and you will have no more  issues.

Here's a look at mine with engine specs and other interesting info.  Now that you are into the cam chest the ball is rolling and you're on your way.  Enjoy.  BTW, it seems that those that spent the time to be sure it was all blueprint perfect have had a good relationship with their 120 engine.  At least go .030 head gasket if your piston deck height is good.  It will run better on the fuel we get these days.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,99409.msg1162057.html#msg1162057

[hrdtail78]

Might be 10.5 if zero deck height.  Haven't seen that yet.  I shoot for a bit over 11 and have run the 662-2 in several.  AV&V 6500 beehives have went in all that have come through the shop.  Wurk truk bought the nub tool to use once and then donated to my shop.  SO I can use this and the rope trick and don't have to pull heads just to put in springs.

[Hybredhog]

Like most things in life, it comes down to $$ for the customer, and for me making it idiot proof so I don't have to deal with it again. So we're not going to get crazy about max performance, and for what I'm seeing his money would be better used for a good tune. I did a leak down test, and things are pretty decent, I will be going after top end gasket, and if I can get away with a .030, I will. I'm kind of leaning towards the S&S625, I'm happy with it in my bike after 40k, and it's quiet. Gasket wise I'm looking around in my books, and only running into "twin cool" 4.060 (this is a '09), so I may have to go to the big guys & pay retail to get what I want.

[hrdtail78]

 0934-3149 C10085-030  DS number and cometic for .030 hg.  The 2022 DS book calls these out for twin cooled and air cooled.  The 2021 DS cat calls it out wrong and there is a correction on DS's webpage under the part number.

......and it's on back order.  The dream date is 11-18-22.

[kd]

0934-3149 C10085-030  DS number and cometic for .030 hg.  The 2022 DS book calls these out for twin cooled and air cooled.  The 2021 DS cat calls it out wrong and there is a correction on DS's webpage under the part number.

......and it's on back order.  The dream date is 11-18-22.

   The twin cooled port in the head gasket is irrelevant to the twin cam heads.  A dual purpose gasket so to speak. Measure the deck height before ordering the gaskets.  If the pistons are above like mine were the simple solution is Cometic. You may be OK with .036 they also have.  They have a wider selection and will cut them for you in any combination they have material for at no extra fee. IIRC I measured the OEM at .045.

[jty]

I have ~35k miles on mine, Tman660sm, AVV beehives, SS lifters, valves adjusted, cometics, very thorough tune including custom spark map, torque passes 100 ftlbs @ 1800 rpm.
One thing to note is that the engine gets hot quickly in traffic, I use 10w-60 semi synth racing oil and electric cooling fans.

[Hybredhog]

What about the base gaskets? not finding anything specific, do the 4" bore ones fit, I've got S&S 4-1/8", but to big & different stud location. It also wouldn't hurt my feelings to replace the rings (was running way rich), but they are some odd balls, and no direct Hastings cross reference. Their 2M5153 set say 1.5mm for both compression, and 2.5mm for the oil ring grooves, these are 1.17mm & 2mm. last time I looked, HD only sells whole piston assemblies.

[kd]

What about the base gaskets? not finding anything specific, do the 4" bore ones fit, I've got S&S 4-1/8", but to big & different stud location. It also wouldn't hurt my feelings to replace the rings (was running way rich), but they are some odd balls, and no Hastings cross reference. last time I looked, HD only sells whole piston assemblies.

OEM base gaskets are .020 and the Cometic 4.060 .020 single layer metal are your best choice IMO.  You will need the specific measurement to fit the cylinder bore. They have a micro rubber coating for sealing insurance.  Before you remove the barrel clamp it down with the head fasteners and spacers and measure your piston deck height.  You may be above or below and Cometic may sell or will make you base gaskets to correct it to zero.  AFAIK Harley still sells rings for the 120R in std. and +.005.  You should be able to find them in the SE catalogue. 

Inspect and measure the barrels and deck height before you buy the parts.  The cylinder walls may not be as straight as you think but cam be corrected now that they are seasoned. That will contribute greatly to longevity. That may also mean +.005 pistons.  If possible have them measured in detail while in torque plates.  One of my cylinders (front) was perfect from the factory and the other one, while still well in spec was not.  The ring gaps lined up in that one at the widest measured spot while in the dyno and started smoking.  The tale of that debacle is on here somewhere around the date of the dyno thread I posted earlier.

[Ohio HD]

These rings may do the job. Measure what you have and see how they compare.


2M5153 Hastings STD
2M5153005 Hastings +0.13mm
2M5153010 Hastings +0.25mm

Bore 103.12mm (4.060")

Top Ring Thickness: 1.5mm
Top Ring Material: Ductile iron
Top Ring Facing Material: Plasma-moly

Second Ring Thickness: 1.5mm 
Second Ring Material: Iron
Second Ring Facing Material: Phosphate coated

Oil Ring Thickness: 2.5mm 
Oil Ring Material: Stainless steel

[Hybredhog]

The 2M5153's are what I'm looking at too, but the math just doesn't work & they'd be to thick for the grooves, maybe for  the 120st engine?. If the SE rings were put into a 1.5mm groove, they'd have approx. .013" side clearance. Somebody got a SE part #? I'm not finding "4.060" base gaskets in DS or tucker books, Axtel has them listed, I may have to go there. Being it's a base gasket, I was just wondering if the 4" ones that are listed are the same spigot size as SE.

[Ohio HD]

1.5mm rings are 0.062". So you have rings there that are thinner than 1/16 of an inch? 

[Hybredhog]

   With a good mic, they measure .046"   I called a dealership, and they told me 22525-10 for a part # of a 4.060 ring set. They couldn't give me any specs. I ran into a similar conundrum with a110 bagger & they made 2 different ring sets for early & later  110.

[Ohio HD]

I'd call Total Seal and see what they have in the way of 1.20mm x 103.12mm.

[kd]

Go to the Cometic web site and the Powersport and V-twin performance gasket section. Cometic 4.060 SLS base gaskets C9110-020 (.020") and C9110-010 (.010") at $24 for the pair. The 110 base part numbers are  C9738 and C9937 which tells me you need the 4.060 gaskets. You're managing the risk.

If you're having trouble finding this stuff contact California Phil in the Vendor section here.  He'll fix you up and make you feel good too. 

[Ohio HD]

You can research these numbers and see what's what.

[kd]

You can research these numbers and see what's what.

IIRC that list is with the 120R Instruction sheets that come with the engine.  At least I think that's where I got it back in 2013.  (wow, almost 10 years ago)

Added Later

J05612 and J05613 found o this site in FSG's excellent Instruction sheet section (or on the MOCO site)

 https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29639.msg859126.html#msg859126

[Ohio HD]

The HD Service Portal also has this and much more.


J05613 - SE120R SCREAMIN' EAGLE PRO RACE-USE CRATE ENGINE

[Hybredhog]

I got a reply back from Total Seal rings, and they list such animals but as a custom order, at $150. Thank you for the SE 120r manual, it confirmed what a dealer parts man told me for $100, and I've got to order them anyways, so I'll probably get the base gaskets from them too.

[Ohio HD]

Sounds like a good plan to me.   

[Hybredhog]

  So the base circle of an S&S625 is .050" larger than the SE566, and the 120r comes with solid pushrod. I've got some S&S lifters coming, but are they using their hydrosolids (with 1/2 turn adjustment), or are they a conventional .100" pre-load? I'll go adjustable pushrods if need be, but the oem one piece make it easy & cheaper.
i know in recent years they've discontinued some models of lifters, but which one?

[Ohio HD]

I don't think S&S ships lifters with travel limiters in them anymore, but I could be wrong.

If the base circle is 0.050" larger, then you'll only see 0.025" additional offset at the lifter. Assuming that the one piece pushrods are designed for 0.100" lifter depth, you'd be at 0.125" lifter depth. If that's the case I'd send it.

FYI, measuring across the lobe at 90° to the full lift usually isn't the actual base circle. You're into the lobe ramps in most cases.

[Ohio HD]

To get a pretty accurate base circle dimension, measure the step from the heal of the lobe to the 1.000" bearing surface.

You then take (Step dim x 2) + 1.000" = Base circle.



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[kd]

the 120r comes with solid pushrod

The 120R solid pushrod is +.030 longer over the regular length OEM solid pushrods.   That will change the pushrod to rocker angle slightly and allow a deeper adjustment which in theory will keep the mid stroke closer to 90 degrees with higher lift lobes.

[Ohio HD]

The MVA heads are decked -0.025" from HD. So if the 120r comes with +0.030" pushrods, they're into the lifter about 0.150" to 0.160" then. If the new base circle is much larger than the SE266 is, it may be best with adjustable pushrods then. 

[Hybredhog]

 So a thought came to me that if the SE solid pushrods are +.030" taller, why not use just "stock" take out pushrod. their plenty strong, I'm tripping over 100's of them, and in theory the preload should be approx. .120". They'll be matched with S&S 650 bee hive springs, which are pretty forgiving & for a bagger should work fine. The only real negative is possible future maintenance ease. Just thinking out loud, the customer is $$ driven, but I'm doing what I can to be easy on his wallet. Or F.I!! and spend a couple bones more.     

[Don D]

I got a reply back from Total Seal rings, and they list such animals but as a custom order, at $150. Thank you for the SE 120r manual, it confirmed what a dealer parts man told me for $100, and I've got to order them anyways, so I'll probably get the base gaskets from them too.

The rings originally came from Hastings and are available from the automotive aftermarket